The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[childeye]

Explain to me again please what you mean by Adam doubting himself.

I imagine that Eve talked Adam into eating. She was convinced they were being held back by God, and the fruit offered a better life for them both. If only her dumb husband would quite being duped through his silly blind devotion to everything God told him as true. Adam knew better, but started to believe the woman, even because he felt diminished in her eyes in that he wouldn't stand up for himself, have courage, and be a man.

He therefore lacked the confidence in himself that he needed to stand up to the woman, despite what she was going to think of of him. Eve's voice was Satan's lie in her. Matthew 16:23.

 

[Deborah13]

I imagine that Eve talked Adam into eating. She was convinced they were being held back by God, and the fruit offered a better life for them both. If only her dumb husband would quite being duped through his silly blind devotion to everything God told him as true. Adam knew better, but started to believe the woman, even because he felt diminished in her eyes in that he wouldn't stand up for himself, have courage, and be a man.

He therefore lacked the confidence in himself that he needed to stand up to the woman, despite what she was going to think of of him. Eve's voice was Satan's lie in her. Matthew 16:23.

So that makes sense to you that the man has proved he is a wimp. So the woman and their children, especially their sons, should be lead by a wimp, that is afraid to stand up to a woman?

 

[childeye]

Believing what God says, faith vs doubt.

We can't conquer Satan. Only God can put him under our feet. And faith is misguided so long as we have a false image of god.

 

[childeye]

So that makes sense to you that the man has proved he is a wimp. So the woman and their children, especially their sons, should be lead by a wimp, that is afraid to stand up to a woman?

Respectfully, we should not mistake meekness as being a wimp. Satan was defeated by a lamb.

 

[Deborah13]

Respectfully, we should not mistake meekness as being a wimp. Satan was defeated by a lamb.

This is what you wrote, I was taking my wording from that. I must have misunderstood you.....
You think Adam was meek towards Eve. That's possible. The Lamb of God showed meekness towards His Father.
"He therefore lacked the confidence in himself that he needed to stand up to the woman, despite what she was going to think of of him."

 

[MarkT]

Adam chose to listen to Eve not God. Adam is responsible for Adams sin...

There is nothing about choosing to listen in the Scripture. The fact is Adam did listen to the voice of his wife and he did eat.

Was Eve responsible for giving Adam the fruit? Was Eve responsible for her voice? Did Eve persuade Adam to eat? We can go on and on about this, it doesn't do the hearer any good.

 

[The_Epsicle]

Well... I'm back from vacation and it seems there's a a few more pages here than before, since when was this moved to the Lounge? I am so confused... Looks like I've got some reading to do, but I just thought I'd drop in and say I'm back.

 

[MarkT]

Adam chose to listen to Eve not God. Adam is responsible for Adams sin...

That's not going to fly with respect to Paul's admonishment to the church. Eve was deceived. Eve didn't choose to be deceived. She didn't choose to cause Adam to disobey. But the point is she was a woman and Adam listened to her voice and he disobeyed the commandment. So women are not allowed to have a voice in the church, neither are they allowed to have any authority over men. Women are to keep silent. 1 Tim. 2:11-14 This is so as to not give Satan any opportunity to mislead the church.

 

[Sinthesis]

Adam was not deceived, so Eve's voice was not deceptive. Eve did not convince Adam to disobey God's commandment to not eat of that fruit. Adam willingly chose to join Eve. In being a fallible human without sin as he chose, Adam's motivation could not have been inherently sinful. Rather, his sin resulted from the imperfect(human) application of righteous intent. Adam's motivation was love. Adam's sin was that his love for Eve eclipsed his trust in God, so that when placed in a situation where he believed he needed to choose between the two, Adam chose to disobey God's commandment.

 

[MarkT]

Adam was not deceived, so Eve's voice was not deceptive. Eve did not convince Adam to disobey God's commandment to not eat of that fruit. Adam willingly chose to join Eve. In being a fallible human without sin as he chose, Adam's motivation could not have been inherently sinful. Rather, his sin resulted from the imperfect(human) application of righteous intent. Adam's motivation was love. Adam's sin was that his love for Eve eclipsed his trust in God, so that when placed in a situation where he believed he needed to choose between the two, Adam chose to disobey God's commandment.

That's not going to fly.

Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived 1 Tim.2:14 suggests men should lead and women should follow and Adam disobeyed the commandment because he listened to the voice of his wife. That's in Scripture Gen. 3:17 What does it mean to 'listen to'? It means to heed, to follow advice. So Adam followed the woman's advice. So women are to have no voice in the church. Paul said, I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 1 Tim. 2:12

 

[MarkT]

The church must take charges of discrimination for what they are; Satan trying to get into the church. But Satan is already in the church! Imagine homosexuals, both men and women, are leading the church.

 

[MarkT]

Take my advice Sinthesis and don't make up stories. We are dealing with words and facts, not fantasy or wild imaginings.

 

[childeye]

This is what you wrote, I was taking my wording from that. I must have misunderstood you.....
You think Adam was meek towards Eve. That's possible. The Lamb of God showed meekness towards His Father.
"He therefore lacked the confidence in himself that he needed to stand up to the woman, despite what she was going to think of of him."

Remember that I'm trying to explain how a man can have faith in God and yet not have enough faith in himself to stand up for what he believes. I also have said Eve might have eaten first and she was not dead and therefore that could further cause Adam to wonder. Anyway, In the objective male female view, I would see an under confident man and an over confident woman and Satan playing the ends against the middle. I think they're both in over their heads, that's why scripture says that the serpent was the most cunning of God's creatures.

 

[childeye]

Adam was not deceived, so Eve's voice was not deceptive. Eve did not convince Adam to disobey God's commandment to not eat of that fruit. Adam willingly chose to join Eve. In being a fallible human without sin as he chose, Adam's motivation could not have been inherently sinful. Rather, his sin resulted from the imperfect(human) application of righteous intent. Adam's motivation was love. Adam's sin was that his love for Eve eclipsed his trust in God, so that when placed in a situation where he believed he needed to choose between the two, Adam chose to disobey God's commandment.

So tell us what you think Eve might have said that would lead God to say, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

 

[MarkT]

Remember that I'm trying to explain how a man can have faith in God and yet not have enough faith in himself to stand up for what he believes. I also have said Eve might have eaten first and she was not dead and therefore that could further cause Adam to wonder. Anyway, In the objective male female view, I would see an under confident man and an over confident woman and Satan playing the ends against the middle. I think they're both in over their heads, that's why scripture says that the serpent was the most cunning of God's creatures.

Paul's way is the woman was deceived, so women should not teach, unless you want to be deceived. The other way is Adam chose, he deliberated and he blamed Eve for his bad choice. Why is this path wrong? Because it ignores the fact he listened to her voice, and she was deceived. Now here you are on the wrong path trying to explain Adam's bad choice. You were on the right path at first, then you listened to a woman's voice and you strayed.

 

[MarkT]

The fact is we don't know what Eve said. So do we start making stuff up, or do we just say we do not know and continue in the word in fear and trembling, not willing to add to the word like ordinary men do?

 

[childeye]

Paul's way is the woman was deceived, so women should not teach, unless you want to be deceived. The other way is Adam chose, he deliberated and he blamed Eve for his bad choice. Why is this path wrong? Because it ignores the fact he listened to her voice, and she was deceived. Now here you are on the wrong path trying to explain Adam's bad choice. You were on the right path at first, then you listened to a woman's voice and you strayed.

This post is kind of funny, but becomes less funny as I think about it. For what it's worth, I still think your explanation is plausible.

If you're saying in this post, I'm too meek as I said Adam was, you may be right about that too... I can't help it.

 

[childeye]

The fact is we don't know what Eve said. So do we start making stuff up, or do we just say we do not know and continue in the word in fear and trembling, not willing to add to the word like ordinary men do?

Fear and trembling is probably more appropriate. We don't know what she said and it is likely God meant it to be that way, otherwise scripture would say otherwise. Onward in faith.

 

[MarkT]

This post is kind of funny, but becomes less funny as I think about it. For what it's worth, I still think your explanation is plausible.

If you're saying in this post, I'm too meek as I said Adam was, you may be right about that too... I can't help it.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there is no reason to judge Adam or yourself. The LORD judged Eve a transgressor. Perhaps it was because she ate first, and so knowing good and evil, she knew what she was doing. If you want to judge Eve, then judge her weak and on the principle that women are weak as Paul does.

The LORD heard the testimony of the man and the woman, and he said to the woman, What have you done? Gen. 3:13 The LORD didn't say, What have you done to Adam, did he? No. He said it to the woman. The woman, as Paul said, was judged a transgressor based on what she had done. Not only had she eaten the fruit, she had caused Adam to eat as well. I'm not saying Adam didn't disobey, but he disobeyed because he listened to the voice of the woman, Eve.

Paul's understanding is that the woman was deceived by the Serpent. The Serpent didn't deceive Adam, did he? No. So for that reason Paul said Adam was not deceived. There's no other reason he said that, unless Paul is telling us something new. Perhaps, as I said, Adam didn't know what he was eating. But to continue, for sure Paul's statement is being misconstrued. Only the misled would say it means Adam chose to sin.

 

[MarkT]

Assuming Eve told him the fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what excuse does Adam have? He knows God's commandment that he should not eat of the fruit of the tree. Perhaps he should have known better, but then again this was a new experience. It had never happened before. Adam had never known temptation up until then; he had never been tempted before, and this temptation came by his wife, the woman God gave him to be his helpmate. Would God give him a helpmate to make him stumble?

Adam said, “The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Gen. 3:12 Does Adam blame God for his trespass? 'You made her. You gave her to me and she gave me the fruit and I ate.' Nevertheless Adam was disobedient and so sin entered into the world.