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The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

childeye said:
However If Adam did what he wanted in willful disobedience to God while the woman had to be tricked into it, then it makes more sense that the woman should be in authority over the man.
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I don't agree with your logic. My view.....
Think about the differences between men and women, in most cases.
When a woman is determined, resolute, and logical many men are uncomfortable. They will say things like she is trying to be a man. They recognize the natural traits of most man compared to the natural traits of most women. Men are just naturally more tenacious than most women.
Women, generally speaking, are softer and more pliable. We adapt easier to circumstances and are therefore, more likely to cave in. That is why children need a good, strong father over them as well as a sensitive, loving mother.
If a man gets right with God he is not easily dissuaded. Not that women are spiritual light weights, we are just different.
 
reba said:
I believe we have different ideas on what deceived means....
I see as doing what he wanted he was not deceived
de·ceive
dəˈsēv/
verb
past tense: deceived; past participle: deceived
  1. (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.
    "I didn't intend to deceive people into thinking it was French champagne"
    synonyms: swindle, defraud, cheat, trick, hoodwink, hoax,dupe, take in, mislead, delude, fool, outwit, lead on,inveigle, beguile, double-cross, gull; More
    • (of a thing) give a mistaken impression.
      "the area may seem to offer nothing of interest, but don't be deceived"
    • fail to admit to oneself that something is true.
      "enabling the rulers to deceive themselves about the nature of their own rule"
    • ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    • He just chose to eat He chose to sin He chose to listen to Eve over God...
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So Adam wasn't deceived means he chose. So Eve was deceived means she didn't choose. So Adam was the wilful sinner and Eve was the unwilling sinner. This turns Paul's admonishment upside down as childeye has been saying.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 1 Tim. 2:11-14
 
Deborah13 said:
Why should we not believe God.
There is so much more for us in this testimony than why did Adam do what he did. We know that he was not trusting God but we cannot say why, God just doesn't tell us. But what we should glean from it, is to always trust God, no matter how things look and no matter what someone else tells us.
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There is so much more, but it begins for us with Satan, Adam and Eve. I also think you are right that we should always trust God no matter how things look, but I don't think that is the lesson here. 2 Corinthians 11:3. The lesson has to also involve the recognition of Satan's cunning, his ability to deceive, as well as the effects of the knowledge of good and evil; which also explains why God didn't want us to eat of it in the first place. Ezekiel 31:8. Matthew 10:16. Why Adam did what he did has to involve Satan. If Adam ate freely and willfully then Satan is not a factor. Adam might as well be Satan or in league with Satan.

We can say, let us trust God, and those are good words, but those are just words. It is prudent to point out that people have gone to war thinking they were trusting God, even with others who thought they also were trusting God. The high priests that served in the temple that handed Jesus over for crucifixion thought they were serving God. Paul persecuted the Christ who came to destroy the works of Satan not the works of Adam. The issue here is a false image of god, and that is what we see in Satan's words to Eve.

I don't think 'naked' is talking about naked body flesh, but a naked soul. They had no sin and therefore no guilt in their conscience. So they could stand before God completely exposed, not trying to hide anything from Him.
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I think this is true but I see it somewhat differently. Nakedness implies shame in who or what we are, requiring the need of something to protect us from the scrutiny of others. It's personal. It's a personal pride, much like what Cain displays when he becomes jealous of Abel.. I see it as an effect of the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:11. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? God knows the effects of the tree.

Now they knew that they had sinned against God, their souls were no longer guiltless, and they felt the burden of that guilt. They tried to cover it themselves by their work of making the fig leaf clothing, but it wasn't sufficient. Our works are never sufficient to cover our sin or to make us righteous before a holy God.
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Guilt can be washed away through forgiveness so long as someone is truly sorry for what they did. The knowledge of good and evil means losing our innocence.

Sin therefore is a condition of separation from God. It comes through a false image of god. Therefore what we think of Adam is crucial. If we think Adam freely and willfully disobeyed God, then the lesson is as you say. But if Satan sowing a false image of god is what leads to Adam's sin, then seeing through Satan's lies becomes the issue.

Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Ham was exposing his father's sin, he was his father's accuser, just as the old serpent is the accuser. But Shem and Japheth gave their father grace. They purposefully did not look at his sin and covered him in grace.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Who would confess their faults to one like Ham, the accuser, the one who ridicules? But who feels safe to confess their sins to ones like Shem and Japheth, who will them grace, as the Lord gives grace?
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This is good. I like this.
 
MarkT said:
So Adam wasn't deceived means he chose. So Eve was deceived means she didn't choose. So Adam was the wilful sinner and Eve was the unwilling sinner. This turns Paul's admonishment upside down as childeye has been saying.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 1 Tim. 2:11-14
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So Adam wasn't deceived means he chose.
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does to my mind...
So Eve was deceived means she didn't choose.
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she was conned her headship was not as good as Adams.
 
reba said:
As i head for cover....because Christ was slain before the foundations of the world... so Adam didn't have a choice... God's plan is Godly
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You can come out now. We're all naked to God here in Christ and without shame.
reba said:
There is more to this then Eve giving him the 'apple'.... She was the only woman Adam saw I doubt God made her unattractive. there is a difference between ..
Eat this
And
Honey want some of this...
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Okay, go back and head for cover.
 
MarkT said:
Not much more. We have two relevant facts; what Adam said and what the LORD said. Anything more than that comes from sin.

Adam listened to her voice and ate. You can look at it both ways. Adam knew the fruit was from the tree and she convinced him to eat and he ate, or Adam did not know, which suggests he was not deceived, as Paul said. 1 Tim. 2:14

I would urge people not to add their own vain imaginings to the Scriptures.
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MarkT said:
It must have been better because she caused him to sin.
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Do the scriptures say she caused him to sin?
 
reba said:
Do the scriptures say she caused him to sin?
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Genesis 3:17
And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
 
Deborah13 said:
I don't agree with your logic. My view.....
Think about the differences between men and women, in most cases.
When a woman is determined, resolute, and logical many men are uncomfortable. They will say things like she is trying to be a man. They recognize the natural traits of most man compared to the natural traits of most women. Men are just naturally more tenacious than most women.

Women, generally speaking, are softer and more pliable. We adapt easier to circumstances and are therefore, more likely to cave in. That is why children need a good, strong father over them as well as a sensitive, loving mother.
If a man gets right with God he is not easily dissuaded. Not that women are spiritual light weights, we are just different.
Click to expand...
Speaking for myself, I have no problem with a woman being determined, resolute, and logical. It more depends on what the woman is determined and resolute about. That goes equally for men. I think men are uncomfortable because women tend to desire things we deem as impractical.

The issue here is whether 1 Timothy 2:14 is saying Adam knew what he was doing when he ate of the fruit. It says, Adam was not the one deceived, which is not quite the same as saying, "unlike the woman, Adam sure knew what he was doing when he ate the fruit un-beguiled". Moreover, what Paul is talking about, is why a man should have authority over the woman. I have some issues with this teaching. Paul doesn't suffer a woman to teach even as he teaches there is no male or female in Christ. Man is a piece of God and woman is a piece of man. Man has some semblance of a woman's perspective. I would think that how a man treats a woman should reflect in some manner how a man wants to be treated by God. That includes correction which I deeply desire. I'm not looking to have my way. I'm looking to have the right way.

To me, it makes no sense that Adam should be in charge because he knew what he was doing when eating the fruit, while the woman had to be tricked into eating. How is Adam better than the woman because of this?
 
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MarkT said:
So Eve is this poor innocent who unwillingly goes about causing men to sin.
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Care to quote a post where i said Eve was innocent? Eve is responsible for her sin.

MarkT said:
Genesis 3:17
And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
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Adam chose to listen to Eve not God. Adam is responsible for Adams sin...
 
What about Satan? Would this sin have happened without him? What power do sheep have against a wolf?

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
 
childeye said:
What about Satan? Would this sin have happened without him? What power do sheep have against a wolf?

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
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Adam was her shepherd?
 
MarkT said:
Genesis 3:17
And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
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There's no way around this in my view. Adam caved to the woman who we know was deceived. That means to me He doubted himself. Oh yes, unless Adam didn't know what he was eating.
 
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