The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[childeye]

Sorry, but the Bible doesn't say anything about trust.

It says righteousness is by grace through faith. Scriptures says all of creation was built by faith. Without faith no one can please God. Faith is a prerequisite to understanding anything about God.

No it doesn't. None of those passages say the knowledge of who He is determines our moral character.

Indeed they do. This is what being re-born of the spirit is pertaining to. Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

There's nothing about faith. There is nothing about trust. The Bible only says she gave some of the fruit to Adam and he ate.

On the contrary, it's all about faith and it's all about trust and it's all about Who God is, either trustworthy or a liar. It's about deception in regards to those things. The lesson here is not check everything your wife gives you to eat.

No false image of God led her to eat.

Then Satan words were unnecessary for her to eat.

God gave them a commandment. 'the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

That means nothing if God is a liar.

The Bible doesn't say anything about justifying rebellion. It doesn't say anything about a false image. It was desire that made Eve eat.

A desire that is only possible through a false image of God. The image of God was the first thing attacked by Satan according to scripture.
Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Do you think Eve was thinking about God's character?

No I don't think she realized the implications towards God's Character, even because it happens through Satan's subtlety.

 

[childeye]

I was always under the impression that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree that they would die. The serpent/devil came and told them nahhh you won't die. They decided to eat from the tree because it was beautiful, lush and as they were told they wouldn't die.

Adam and Eve were deceived. Instead of listening to God they listened to the Devil instead. whether of not they had some goodness in them, God told them not to eat but they did anyways. The devil will always be the ultimate deceiver. Making everything look amazing and wonderful but its not. One of the many thing we have to deal with today is temptation.

There's nothing I disagree with you about. This is what happened. However, this is ultimately about whether Adam and Eve were disobedient through the means of deception and how that deception can reoccur in all of us. 2 Corinthians 11:3.

 

[childeye]

If they were good then how is it they disobeyed?

Because they were deceivable and without knowledge of guile.

 

[SaraBeth]

Oh yes I agree. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. Making any sin love marvelous and beautiful but in all reality it's a cover. The devil will do anything to bring followers of Christ down and keep them there.

 

[childeye]

Oh yes I agree. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. Making any sin love marvelous and beautiful but in all reality it's a cover. The devil will do anything to bring followers of Christ down and keep them there.

I watch my two grandchildren consistently want the toy that the other one has. What toy it is, doesn't matter. My point is that lust is formed in the imagination. The carnal mind finds fault where there isn't any. The carnal mind tries to fix what is not broken. Hence we don't appreciate what we have until after we lose it. The voice behind this futility is based upon a false image of god. That God is holding back from giving us what He has. As if God is self-serving or selfish. This false image is then projected by those who believe in it as true. It is a carnal view of god. 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man

 

[MarkT]

It says righteousness is by grace through faith. Scriptures says all of creation was built by faith. Without faith no one can please God. Faith is a prerequisite to understanding anything about God.

We're discussing Genesis. Stick to the story. Faith is in the promise of God. Understanding comes by hearing and it is a matter of the heart. So hearing and understanding and believing precede faith.

Indeed they do. This is what being re-born of the spirit is pertaining to. Romans 8:29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

No they don't. Sorry but you have no understanding. These verses are talking about his appearance, not his character. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. Jesus was the image of the invisible God.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

On the contrary, it's all about faith and it's all about trust and it's all about Who God is, either trustworthy or a liar. It's about deception in regards to those things. The lesson here is not check everything your wife gives you to eat.

No it is not about faith. God gave them a commandment. He did not give them a promise. It's not about who God is. It's not about deception in regard to who God is.

The Serpent did not call God a liar. That's your interpretation. And definitely Eve would not have understood him to mean God was a liar, because she had no knowledge of lying. That is why all he said was, 'you will not die'. The idea that the Serpent called God a liar is all in your mind. It was not in Eve's mind.

He also suggested God did not want her to know good and evil because that would make her like God. That is the subtle deception which led to her desire. Eve did not know he was lying. The question of who was lying never entered her mind.

 

[SaraBeth]

I agree! Satan knew that she didn't have any thought about it only that she was told not to. No other thoughts or questions. She just did it because he told her that she would be like God!

 

[MarkT]

I agree! Satan knew that she didn't have any thought about it only that she was told not to. No other thoughts or questions. She just did it because he told her that she would be like God!

Right again!

 

[childeye]

We're discussing Genesis. Stick to the story. Faith is in the promise of God. Understanding comes by hearing and it is a matter of the heart. So hearing and understanding and believing precede faith.

Respectfully, I am sticking to the story. I'm talking about God's trustworthiness being put in question here by Satan. For the believer that's a faith issue. Something Adam and Eve didn't question before Satan's lies.

Sure, I know hearing and understanding produces faith as in one must hear the Gospel to believe about it. But this episode in the Garden is a fall, where corruption enters in, not where Truth enters in. It's asking us to not trust God. So when I say faith is a prerequisite for understanding, I mean knowing God is trustworthy is understanding.

No they don't. Sorry but you have no understanding. These verses are talking about his appearance, not his character. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. Jesus was the image of the invisible God.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were talking about the image of God defining our morality. All the verses I gave are about the Holiness of His character, His Glory. The knowledge of God is about His Character. Knowing God, is about knowing His Person. That's why I use those verses to show you that we are conformed to the image of Christ through faith that this is the Person of God, His righteousness and Love on display on a cross. Hence any corrupt image of god produces a corrupt morality, a corrupt righteousness.

No it is not about faith. God gave them a commandment. He did not give them a promise. It's not about who God is. It's not about deception in regard to who God is.

You have to have faith that God is telling the Truth in order to believe Him when He says, the day you eat of it , you will surely die. Otherwise there is no true cause for obedience. That is the reason why you're not supposed to eat of it, not just because He commanded it. Now Satan is essentially calling God a liar, and that is about God's Character. I don't see the problem with acknowledging that.

The Serpent did not call God a liar. That's your interpretation.

You can call it my interpretation. When God says, "you will surely die" and Satan counters with, "you won't surely die" then I take that to mean that Satan is saying that God is not being the one more accurate. I don't think that is unreasonable.

And definitely Eve would not have understood him to mean God was a liar, because she had no knowledge of lying.

I agree she had no knowledge of lying. Satan doesn't even use the word liar. That doesn't change the fact that lies exist, and it certainly doesn't negate their ability to deceive.

That is why all he said was, 'you will not die'. The idea that the Serpent called God a liar is all in your mind. It was not in Eve's mind.

Hey, no fair claiming Eve's mind. After all it can't be said that she is not considering that the serpent is telling the truth in contradiction to God.
.

He also suggested God did not want her to know good and evil because that would make her like God. That is the subtle deception which led to her desire.

Which also is an attack on God's Character. Satan is implying that God keeps them down by denying them the thing that would make them His equal. You don't see that, huh?

Eve did not know he was lying. The question of who was lying never entered her mind.

Yes I have already agreed with this many times. I have even said it also in earlier posts. That doesn't mean it is not happening. She's still being moved by a lie that disparages God. She's still accepting a false image of god, even though she doesn't know it. Even you don't know it with all this talk about the image of god not affecting our moral character. Her character is clearly seen as changed into a lust for more, whereas before she was content.

 

[childeye]

I agree! Satan knew that she didn't have any thought about it only that she was told not to. No other thoughts or questions. She just did it because he told her that she would be like God!

So we know she was told not to eat lest they die. Then she is told she won't die and she will become like god. Are you saying she didn't ponder that what she was hearing are two conflicting messages?

 

[SaraBeth]

So we know she was told not to eat lest they die. Then she is told she won't die and she will become like god. Are you saying she didn't ponder that what she was hearing are two conflicting messages?

Well it never mentions her thinking about it. Just that she was convinced at what the devil told her. Goes back to the devil being the ultimate deciever. Of course one would have to wonder about her thinking about the two sides but it all boils down to the temptation of being like God.

 

[MarkT]

Yes I have already agreed with this many times. I have even said it also in earlier posts. That doesn't mean it is not happening. She's still being moved by a lie that disparages God. She's still accepting a false image of god, even though she doesn't know it. Even you don't know it with all this talk about the image of god not affecting our moral character. Her character is clearly seen as changed into a lust for more, whereas before she was content.

To you she is accepting a false image of God. But a false image of God would be an idol, so your words don't make sense.

On the one hand she has the commandment. On the other hand she sees the tree is good for food, and a delight to the eyes and it is to be desired to make one wise. The desire of the flesh wins out. Of course the Serpent was lying when he said she would not die, but Eve doesn't know that. What's lying? And to say it is happening is ridiculous; she doesn't know good and evil.

 

[MarkT]

Well it never mentions her thinking about it. Just that she was convinced at what the devil told her. Goes back to the devil being the ultimate deciever. Of course one would have to wonder about her thinking about the two sides but it all boils down to the temptation of being like God.

Don't let childeye mix you up. You were right in the first place.

 

[SaraBeth]

You would wonder yourself into circles with those types of questions. I just look at what was said.

 

[childeye]

To you she is accepting a false image of God. But a false image of God would be an idol, so your words don't make sense.

True, an idol is a false image of god. I believe you when you say you can't make sense of my words. I will ask some questions to show what are my thoughts. What is this about any false image of god that God hates and despises over all things? What was the cause of Israel's sin in scripture? What's the reason or need, for God sending a True Image of Himself so as to believe in and be saved? Think about this and research these things. Look up the word 'image' and read all the passages where this word appears in scripture. Please keep in mind that I would like you to seek to know if the Image we hold of God to be true, determines our own moral character. Then we can discuss whether the devil sowed a false image of god in the garden and what is meant by Paul saying this, 2 Corinthians 11:3 . Here are some more scriptures to consider with this in mind.

Deuteronomy 9:12
And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
Judges 2:19
And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5[Full Chapter]
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

 

[childeye]

You would wonder yourself into circles with those types of questions. I just look at what was said.

I thought it was a reasonable question.

 

[childeye]

Don't let childeye mix you up. You were right in the first place.

I assure you, I am not trying to mix anyone up.

 

[MarkT]

True, an idol is a false image of god. I believe you when you say you can't make sense of my words. I will ask some questions to show what are my thoughts. What is this about any false image of god that God hates and despises over all things? What was the cause of Israel's sin in scripture? What's the reason or need, for God sending a True Image of Himself so as to believe in and be saved? Think about this and research these things. Look up the word 'image' and read all the passages where this word appears in scripture. Please keep in mind that I would like you to seek to know if the Image we hold of God to be true, determines our own moral character. Then we can discuss whether the devil sowed a false image of god in the garden and what is meant by Paul saying this, 2 Corinthians 11:3 . Here are some more scriptures to consider with this in mind.

Deuteronomy 9:12
And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
Judges 2:19
And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
2 Corinthians 10:4-5[Full Chapter]
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

What you have is Eve pondering good and evil and deciding or accepting God is evil/a liar. I'm saying that's false, because she did not know good and evil.

Also, we are born with our moral character.

 

[MarkT]

She's still being moved by a lie that disparages God. She's still accepting a false image of god, even though she doesn't know it. Even you don't know it with all this talk about the image of god not affecting our moral character. Her character is clearly seen as changed into a lust for more, whereas before she was content.

She was moved by her desire, the desire of the flesh, not by a false image of God, whatever that means. James 1:14,15

I will ask some questions to show what are my thoughts. What is this about any false image of god that God hates and despises over all things? What was the cause of Israel's sin in scripture? What's the reason or need, for God sending a True Image of Himself so as to believe in and be saved? Think about this and research these things. Look up the word 'image' and read all the passages where this word appears in scripture. Please keep in mind that I would like you to seek to know if the Image we hold of God to be true, determines our own moral character. Then we can discuss whether the devil sowed a false image of god in the garden and what is meant by Paul saying this, 2 Corinthians 11:3 .

Sorry. I don't agree. False words and false teachings can be planted, but I don't know what you mean by holding an image of God. Jesus was the image of God. We don't hold an image of God. We are conformed to the image of his Son. But even so, I am still me. I haven't changed. My dwelling changed, but aside from being free of sin and knowing a lot more than I did, I have not changed. Maybe it is because I am of God and God does not change. Jesus's character didn't change. The apostle's character did not change. Character does not change.

 

[MarkT]

In terms of good and evil, and right and wrong, I would say it is learned. But then again, a moral character would be required to learn. It depends on what you mean by moral character. Do you mean a believing heart? A spirit of understanding? These are things we are born with.

In one respect, I have changed. I have become obedient to his word, where before, I did not know his word.

So when you say her character changed into a lust for more, are you saying she sinned even before she ate?

I would say without the knowledge of good and evil, there is no understanding of evil, and therefore there is no sin. I think the simple fact is Eve would have believed whatever she was told.