The stumbling blocks of reformed doctrines

[childeye]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there is no reason to judge Adam or yourself. The LORD judged Eve a transgressor. Perhaps it was because she ate first, and so knowing good and evil, she knew what she was doing. If you want to judge Eve, then judge her weak and on the principle that women are weak as Paul does.

Actually I don't want to have to judge anyone, yet sometimes people say things that I don't agree with. Therefore, I'm kind of forced to make a judgment about them and myself, as to what the Truth is, and why we see things differently. It's not so as to condemn or hold people culpable, but simply to understand the source of our division and determine what the truth actually is. My wife says I analyze too much. Do I see the word anal in there?

The LORD heard the testimony of the man and the woman, and he said to the woman, What have you done? Gen. 3:13 The LORD didn't say, What have you done to Adam, did he? No. He said it to the woman.

I've never thought of that before. That's a valid point, although somewhat incriminating for Eve. But then again she was deceived and in my honest opinion, excusable.

The woman, as Paul said, was judged a transgressor based on what she had done. Not only had she eaten the fruit, she had caused Adam to eat as well. I'm not saying Adam didn't disobey, but he disobeyed because he listened to the voice of the woman, Eve.

Yes, the problem is semantics. You're not saying Adam didn't disobey. But you're also not saying he intentionally didn't trust God. Is that correct?

Paul's understanding is that the woman was deceived by the Serpent. The Serpent didn't deceive Adam, did he? No. So for that reason Paul said Adam was not deceived. There's no other reason he said that, unless Paul is telling us something new. Perhaps, as I said, Adam didn't know what he was eating. But to continue, for sure Paul's statement is being misconstrued. Only the misled would say it means Adam chose to sin.

Okay, well I haven't abandoned this line of reasoning , just in case you think I have. I still think 1 Timothy 2:14 is taken out of context. I still don't think Adam knew full well what he was doing in following a deceived person.

 

[childeye]

Assuming Eve told him the fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what excuse does Adam have? He knows God's commandment that he should not eat of the fruit of the tree. Perhaps he should have known better, but then again this was a new experience. It had never happened before. Adam had never known temptation up until then; he had never been tempted before, and this temptation came by his wife, the woman God gave him to be his helpmate. Would God give him a helpmate to make him stumble?

I agree. What if he hadn't eaten? It's possible it would nag him the rest of his days, not knowing. That thought alone might be a tipping point for Adam. Did Adam take a tiny bite to see if God was true? Or did he take a big mouthful because he knew God was a liar?

 

[Sinthesis]

So tell us what you think Eve might have said that would lead God to say, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

I am interpreting this Adam/Eve episode in light of the Abraham/Isaac episode. Suppose Adam, prior to his own sin, assumed it was his duty to visit upon Eve, for her transgression, God's promised consequence. In that case Eve would be in the place that Isaac would later be with Abraham. Isaac asked Abraham a question (Gen 22:7). If Abraham had not faith in God, then Isaac's question combined with Abraham's love for his son would have kept him from preparing an otherwise abominable work, human sacrifice, for which his willingness to do so was attributed to him as righteousness. Eve might have asked Adam how he could give her up, as she was a gift from God. Instead of trusting God for the answer to this moral conflict, Adam chose to abandon his work of obedience and willingly joined Eve.

 

[childeye]

I am interpreting this Adam/Eve episode in light of the Abraham/Isaac episode. Suppose Adam, prior to his own sin, assumed it was his duty to visit upon Eve, for her transgression, God's promised consequence. In that case Eve would be in the place that Isaac would later be with Abraham. Isaac asked Abraham a question (Gen 22:7). If Abraham had not faith in God, then Isaac's question combined with Abraham's love for his son would have kept him from preparing an otherwise abominable work, human sacrifice, for which his willingness to do so was attributed to him as righteousness. Eve might have asked Adam how he could give her up, as she was a gift from God. Instead of trusting God for the answer to this moral conflict, Adam chose to abandon his work of obedience and willingly joined Eve.

Thanks for that explanation. I suppose it's possible is the only thing I can say, since we are speculating. God stopped Abraham and supplied the sacrifice saying, that He only wanted to see if Abraham would give up his son in faith. Adam wasn't approached by God in this same manner. It is therefore difficult for me to relate the two instances.

 

[MarkT]

I've never thought of that before. That's a valid point, although somewhat incriminating for Eve. But then again she was deceived and in my honest opinion, excusable.
Yes, the problem is semantics. You're not saying Adam didn't disobey. But you're also not saying he intentionally didn't trust God. Is that correct?

The Serpent told Eve God didn't want her to be like God knowing good and evil. He said, 'when you eat of the tree you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' Gen. 3:4 So thinking the fruit would make her wise, she deliberately rebelled against God; she took it upon herself to grasp equality. It was her desire, Gen. 3:6 to be equal to God, that made it easy to deceive her and to put her hand out to take from God what belonged to God. How is that excusable?

I don't think Adam had the desire to be equal to God.

 

[MarkT]

To understand Adam's sin you have to know life comes from the father. It is because he was the father that his sin and so death was passed on to all men.

 

[childeye]

The Serpent told Eve God didn't want her to be like God knowing good and evil. He said, 'when you eat of the tree you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' Gen. 3:4 So thinking the fruit would make her wise, she deliberately rebelled against God; she took it upon herself to grasp equality. It was her desire, Gen. 3:6 to be equal to God, that made it easy to deceive her and to put her hand out to take from God what belonged to God. How is that excusable?

Because she was deceived into doing it. Adam and Eve were both made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27. Therefore Eve was already like God and so was Adam. The subtlety of Satan's lie is getting her to accept a false pretense, that she isn't like God already without the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[childeye]

To understand Adam's sin you have to know life comes from the father. It is because he was the father that his sin and so death was passed on to all men.

If you're talking about genetics, I agree.

 

[MarkT]

Because she was deceived into doing it. Adam and Eve were both made in the image of God. Genesis 1:27. Therefore Eve was already like God and so was Adam. The subtlety of Satan's lie is getting her to accept a false pretense, that she isn't like God already without the knowledge of good and evil.

No she was not like God. She was a creature. You're saying she already knew good and evil? False.

 

[MarkT]

They had the intelligence and the ability to know, but they did not know good and evil in advance, before they ate of the tree.

 

[childeye]

No she was not like God. She was a creature. You're saying she already knew good and evil? False.

She is a creature made in God's image. So no, I'm not saying she had the knowledge of good and evil. I'm saying she had Love, the light of mankind.

 

[childeye]

They had the intelligence and the ability to know, but they did not know good and evil in advance, before they ate of the tree.

I agree, but something is being corrupted here through this lie that is selling this knowledge, and I believe it is man's image of God, and subsequently man's image of himself. For we are created. And if our Creator is imperfect, then we being His handi-work, are compromised in our own belief in ourselves, and of each other because we are made by Him.

I therefore also believe that what is good in us, is Eternal and we were made already having goodness/Love, endowed by our Maker. Otherwise there is nothing to corrupt and nothing to fall away from. And therefore I come to wonder if the knowledge of good and evil is only the introduction of evil into mankind's awareness.

 

[MarkT]

I agree, but something is being corrupted here through this lie that is selling this knowledge, and I believe it is man's image of God, and subsequently man's image of himself. For we are created. And if our Creator is imperfect, then we being His handi-work, are compromised in our own belief in ourselves, and of each other because we are made by Him.

I therefore also believe that what is good in us, is Eternal and we were made already having goodness/Love, endowed by our Maker. Otherwise there is nothing to corrupt and nothing to fall away from. And therefore I come to wonder if the knowledge of good and evil is only the introduction of evil into mankind's awareness.

What are you talking about? Made in the image of God does not mean man is good. Nevertheless, let's stick to the story.

Adam and Eve didn't know it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree until after they ate. Then they knew the fear of God and they covered themselves. The Bible tells us Eve went for the fruit like a fish goes after a shiny lure. We don't have to guess. The Bible tells us flat out, "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, Genesis 3:6 So it was the desire of the flesh and her desire to be like God that led her to eat. In what sense was she deceived? Well, she didn't know it was wrong to eat, but then again she was told she would die if she did. So regardless of the fact that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong, still she disobeyed the commandment. So the lesson here is you don't have to know something is a sin for sin to kill you; if you break his commandments you will die just the same.

 

[childeye]

What are you talking about? Made in the image of God does not mean man is good. Nevertheless, let's stick to the story.

Whoa, not so fast. Did Adam and Eve have Love/goodness when created? Did they first begin in faith and trust in God as their Maker? Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? I think these are legitimate questions and I also think the answers are yes.

Adam and Eve didn't know it was wrong to eat the fruit of the tree until after they ate. Then they knew the fear of God and they covered themselves. The Bible tells us Eve went for the fruit like a fish goes after a shiny lure. We don't have to guess. The Bible tells us flat out, "the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, Genesis 3:6 So it was the desire of the flesh and her desire to be like God that led her to eat. In what sense was she deceived? Well, she didn't know it was wrong to eat, but then again she was told she would die if she did. So regardless of the fact that she didn't know what she was doing was wrong, still she disobeyed the commandment. So the lesson here is you don't have to know something is a sin for sin to kill you; if you break his commandments you will die just the same.

True, we die if we don't obey God, which is the same as saying we die when we don't trust God. I still think the lesson is as I stated above, that corruption is the product of a false image of god. And moreover, that God is Holy and True. The reason it matters to me whether it comes by willful disobedience or deception through ignorance has everything to do with walking away with the right lesson.

 

[MarkT]

Whoa, not so fast. Did Adam and Eve have Love/goodness when created? Did they first begin in faith and trust in God as their Maker? Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? I think these are legitimate questions and I also think the answers are yes.

Did they have love and goodness when they were created? I would think so. Every creature God created exhibits a form of love and goodness, especially towards their young. Did they begin in faith and trust? I don't know. Faith is in a promise so I wouldn't say faith. I think they had a basic understanding of death though. Did they believe God when he said they would die if they ate the fruit of the tree? I would say so, but that's not the same as trust. Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? Not sure what you mean here. You don't have to have an image of God to be corrupt. The wicked don't even believe in God. The ones who create idols and images are corrupt, but it's not the idol that corrupts them. They are corrupt who create the idols. What does this have to do with Adam and Eve?

True, we die if we don't obey God, which is the same as saying we die when we don't trust God. I still think the lesson is as I stated above, that corruption is the product of a false image of god. And moreover, that God is Holy and True. The reason it matters to me whether it comes by willful disobedience or deception through ignorance has everything to do with walking away with the right lesson.

No. Trust is not the same. We believe God, and we trust in his goodness.

Well, you're basing your conclusion on your answers to your own questions. That's not understanding.

The statement that Adam was not deceived does not mean he chose to disobey, if he didn't know disobedience was wrong. It simply means the Serpent did not chose Adam to deceive. The implication is Adam would not have believed the Serpent.

 

[childeye]

Did they have love and goodness when they were created? I would think so. Every creature God created exhibits a form of love and goodness, especially towards their young.

Okay if they had Love as in empathy, then they had goodness even before they had the knowledge of good and evil. That supports my belief that goodness is not obtained through the knowledge of good and evil. It suggests to me that the knowledge of good and evil is more like the awareness of evil in contrast with good. This also suggests that they do not need this knowledge to be good like God is good. They are endowed with goodness by the Creator Who made them. Hence the Word of God through which all things were created when He spoke, is the Light and Life of mankind. Mankind didn't need the knowledge of good and evil to become like God, they already were like God.

Did they begin in faith and trust? I don't know. Faith is in a promise so I wouldn't say faith. I think they had a basic understanding of death though. Did they believe God when he said they would die if they ate the fruit of the tree? I would say so, but that's not the same as trust.

Perhaps I should have asked you if they began in distrust of God, so that you would have better understood my question.

Is corruption in mankind directly related to one's image of God? Not sure what you mean here.

I mean that the knowledge of Who He is, is what determines our moral character. If one has a corrupt image of god, then they are corrupted by it. So that is why the apostle says this: 2 Corinthians 4:6. Romans 8:29. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

You don't have to have an image of God to be corrupt. The wicked don't even believe in God.

If someone doesn't believe God exists, this too is a false image of god.

The ones who create idols and images are corrupt, but it's not the idol that corrupts them. They are corrupt who create the idols.

But the idol does corrupt them even because they don't esteem God as God.

What does this have to do with Adam and Eve?

Because the serpent is presenting a false image of god to mankind through subtlety. It is meant to cause a doubt in God's Character, hence their faith in God is being attacked by causing someone to question for the first time Who they are putting their trust in. Apparently Adam trusted the woman who was deceived.

[True, we die if we don't obey God, which is the same as saying we die when we don't trust God. I still think the lesson is as I stated above, that corruption is the product of a false image of god. And moreover, that God is Holy and True. The reason it matters to me whether it comes by willful disobedience or deception through ignorance has everything to do with walking away with the right lesson.

No. Trust is not the same. We believe God, and we trust in his goodness.

No one obeys from the heart without putting trust in whom they are obeying. If we believe God is good then there is no way to justify rebellion. Yet it is Satan through the serpent saying, that God is a liar and that He is not good and justifying rebellion. So a false image of god is being presented here. And if believed upon it does corrupt the person who believes in it.

Well, you're basing your conclusion on your answers to your own questions. That's not understanding.

I only ask the questions so that you understand my reasoning.

The statement that Adam was not deceived does not mean he chose to disobey if he didn't know disobedience was wrong. It simply means the Serpent did not chose Adam.

I don't dispute that. That could be exactly what Paul means to say in 1 Timothy. I not only think it's entirely possible that someone innocent of evil could be conned into disobedience, I also think that is what happened.

 

[MarkT]

Okay if they had Love as in empathy, then they had goodness even before they had the knowledge of good and evil. That supports my belief that goodness is not obtained through the knowledge of good and evil. It suggests to me that the knowledge of good and evil is more like the awareness of evil in contrast with good.

Right. It is knowing right from wrong, good and evil.

This also suggests that they do not need this knowledge to be good like God is good. They are endowed with goodness by the Creator Who made them.

Hence the Word of God through which all things were created when He spoke, is the Light and Life of mankind. Mankind didn't need the knowledge of good and evil to become like God, they already were like God.

If they were good then how is it they disobeyed?

 

[SaraBeth]

I was always under the impression that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree that they would die. The serpent/devil came and told them nahhh you won't die. They decided to eat from the tree because it was beautiful, lush and as they were told they wouldn't die.

Adam and Eve were deceived. Instead of listening to God they listened to the Devil instead. whether of not they had some goodness in them, God told them not to eat but they did anyways. The devil will always be the ultimate deceiver. Making everything look amazing and wonderful but its not. One of the many thing we have to deal with today is temptation.

 

[MarkT]

Okay if they had Love as in empathy, then they had goodness even before they had the knowledge of good and evil. That supports my belief that goodness is not obtained through the knowledge of good and evil. It suggests to me that the knowledge of good and evil is more like the awareness of evil in contrast with good. This also suggests that they do not need this knowledge to be good like God is good. They are endowed with goodness by the Creator Who made them. Hence the Word of God through which all things were created when He spoke, is the Light and Life of mankind. Mankind didn't need the knowledge of good and evil to become like God, they already were like God.

Perhaps I should have asked you if they began in distrust of God, so that you would have better understood my question.

Sorry, but the Bible doesn't say anything about trust.

I mean that the knowledge of Who He is, is what determines our moral character. If one has a corrupt image of god, then they are corrupted by it. So that is why the apostle says this: 2 Corinthians 4:6. Romans 8:29. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

No it doesn't. None of those passages say the knowledge of who He is determines our moral character.

If someone doesn't believe God exists, this too is a false image of god.

But the idol does corrupt them even because they don't esteem God as God.
Because the serpent is presenting a false image of god to mankind through subtlety. It is meant to cause a doubt in God's Character, hence their faith in God is being attacked by causing someone to question for the first time Who they are putting their trust in. Apparently Adam trusted the woman who was deceived.

There's nothing about faith. There is nothing about trust. The Bible only says she gave some of the fruit to Adam and he ate.

No one obeys from the heart without putting trust in whom they are obeying. If we believe God is good then there is no way to justify rebellion. Yet it is Satan through the serpent saying, that God is a liar and that He is not good and justifying rebellion. So a false image of god is being presented here. And if believed upon it does corrupt the person who believes in it.

No false image of God led her to eat. God gave them a commandment. 'the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” Gen. 2:16-17 It's got nothing to do with trust. The Bible doesn't say anything about justifying rebellion. It doesn't say anything about a false image. It was desire that made Eve eat. Do you think Eve was thinking about God's character? What did she know about lying? Nothing. This was before they ate, so she had no knowledge of lying or trust.

 

[MarkT]

I was always under the impression that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree that they would die. The serpent/devil came and told them nahhh you won't die. They decided to eat from the tree because it was beautiful, lush and as they were told they wouldn't die.

Adam and Eve were deceived. Instead of listening to God they listened to the Devil instead. whether of not they had some goodness in them, God told them not to eat but they did anyways. The devil will always be the ultimate deceiver. Making everything look amazing and wonderful but its not. One of the many thing we have to deal with today is temptation.

Right on!