The Sufferings Of Christ

[for_his_glory]

They do. It’s very common.

If this is how it works how come so many disagree?

And you are not understanding what I’m saying. Ok, let’s give you a biblical example. God tests people and He uses the scientific method.

Genesis 22. God tested Abraham. Surly everyone knows the account. Abraham was told to sacrifice his son and just before doing so, God stopped him. Now what God says is interesting.

“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” After the testing or experiment, God knew what He was looking to know. He did not say the Spirit showed him what he needed to know. This is the scientific method.

Now I don’t test people although I watch them when tests come up naturally. But mostly I test theories based on what the Bible already says. One poster said God says XYZ so I looked at descriptions of God really responded to those situations. I tested the theory. It failed because God never said XYZ to anyone.

We are to love God with our minds. This is part of that.

Fair enough.
Job 21:7-13
Jeremiah 12:1
Psalm 94:3

But surly one can look at wicked men living today in peace and wealth. Their end is not yet seen.

Disagreements happen as not everyone hears the Spirit of truth teaching them as they rely on man's doctrines believing everything that comes from the pulpit as many do not study to show themselves approved unto God.

Genesis 22 God was testing Abrahams faith, just as He test our faith as we walk by faith and not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 Peter 1:6-7; James 1:2-4.

Therories are nothing more than unaproved assumptions. Testing the spirits that teach us proves truth from error, 1 John 4:1-6.

We are to love God with all our heart, all our soul and all our mind, Matthew 22:37.


Thank you for those scriptures, but you only use parts and not the whole.

Job 21:7-13, the full is found in the whole chapter as Job replies that the wicker do prosper here on earth, but give no regard for the Lord.

Jeremiah 12:1 the full is found in the whole chapter as Jeremiah was complaining about the wicked and how they prosper, vs.1-4. From vs. 5-17 God answers his complaint saying the wicked will be destroyed as they walk in disobedience to God's command.

Psalms 94:3 the full is found in the whole chapter as God will cut off the wicked from Him because of their iniquity.

 

[for_his_glory]

It wasn’t the actions of people, it was the philosophy. That is not charactizing people, groups or individuals.

Back in your post #45 you said: "That’s like the Muslims, “whatever horrible suffering I choose to inflict upon you is Allahs will.”

I see no philosophy in that statement you made, but only that of what Mohammed wrote in his Quran. Again, not every Muslim is Jihad and only want to live in peace with everyone. Just like everyone who says they are a Christian, but yet deny the power there of as they only have a form of godliness, 2 Timothy 3:1-7.

 

[stovebolts]

I observe you see only one side, yours. You’ve not really acknowledged the living you stole from others. I think of them. God thinks of them.

I’m sorry if I’ve ruffled your feathers. My focus was on one particular side, but if you go back and carefully read what I’ve said in the matter, you’ll see that I not only left room for another valid view, but when you drove that concern, I acknowledged your view was correct from that perspective. I contend that the issue is not Boolean and calls for discernment.

That was your point, not mine. You tried to justify stealing by bringing in the OT law to leave some of the harvest as though not doing so then justifies stealing, not me.

stealing is wrong and is to be avoided. What the law teaches (and Paul) is those who have the means should not put those in need of food without in most cases.

In Thessalonians, Paul writes that if one does not work, one does not eat. He is addressing those who are able to work, but don’t.

In another place Paul writes, If you steal, stop stealing and get a job. Once you have a job, give to those in need.

Why? Because those in need are those who can’t work, or can’t find work. Give to them so they don’t find themselves in a position to steal just to eat.

These command derive from Levitical law. The same laws that allowed David and his men to eat the shewbread authorized only for the Priests in the line of Aaron. Look it up, it is in black and white where only the Priests from the line of Aaron could eat of it. Yet David and his men did not sin by eating of it.

It’s about living your neighbor as yourself and living Gods mercy out on others, not condemnation.

If one is forced to steal his food because nobody will hire him or give him a handout, then God will not only take that into account, but those who had the means to assist and refused are just like the Levites in the Good Samaritan parable.

But to your point, those who steal just to have things without working for them, they will be charged justly.

Nothing to do with being chastened.

I understand you don’t see the signs and wonders. I won’t push the issue with you. But for the Sages, they see it ever so clearly.

No idea

I find this an odd reply. You don’t know, yet you discount what’s been presented on the matter.

Can you explain it? Keep in mind the Jewish thinkers failed to see and understand the Messiah.

Even Jesus disciples failed to understand Jesus, and they were with him daily. But they saw the signs and wonders and believed in those. Jesus even prompted the teachers of the law to take into account his signs and wonders.

When we parse the text, we can loose sight of the signs and wonders and the law becomes rigid and without life. Jesus says to those who look at the Bible in such a way and he asks, “Why do you search the scriptures for eternal life”? For those unwilling to hear what others are saying miss what is being said.

From Memory, this is a short summary of Exodus 15.

Pharaoh and his army are swallowed in the sea. Miriam then leads Israel in song and dance over the victory. In doing so, she does not consider the lives lost at the hand of the Lord. There is no mourning for the destruction of those following Pharoah.

The celebration is short lived and they go three days without water. Both the three days and water are significant for reasons we won’t get into at the moment.
When they do find water, it is too bitter to drink until Moses cries out, and he places a piece of wood in the water to make it drinkable.

Keep in mind, God has been silent for three days, and what does he say? He admonished them and reminds them…

They then move to the next camp and there are 70 palm trees. This represents the 70 Sanhedrin appointed to rule the courts and like a palm tree, they are to be flexible and weather the storm.

There is much more I could write, but I hope this gives a better overview of how I understand this event.

I agree with you totally.

The Priests we’re to understand Torah at a very intimate level. I believe Ezekiel takes his queue from Exodus 15.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’m sorry if I’ve ruffled your feathers. My focus was on one particular side, but if you go back and carefully read what I’ve said in the matter, you’ll see that I not only left room for another valid view, but when you drove that concern, I acknowledged your view was correct from that perspective. I contend that the issue is not Boolean and calls for discernment.

stealing is wrong and is to be avoided. What the law teaches (and Paul) is those who have the means should not put those in need of food without in most cases.

In Thessalonians, Paul writes that if one does not work, one does not eat. He is addressing those who are able to work, but don’t.

In another place Paul writes, If you steal, stop stealing and get a job. Once you have a job, give to those in need.

Why? Because those in need are those who can’t work, or can’t find work. Give to them so they don’t find themselves in a position to steal just to eat.

These command derive from Levitical law. The same laws that allowed David and his men to eat the shewbread authorized only for the Priests in the line of Aaron. Look it up, it is in black and white where only the Priests from the line of Aaron could eat of it. Yet David and his men did not sin by eating of it.

It’s about living your neighbor as yourself and living Gods mercy out on others, not condemnation.

If one is forced to steal his food because nobody will hire him or give him a handout, then God will not only take that into account, but those who had the means to assist and refused are just like the Levites in the Good Samaritan parable.

But to your point, those who steal just to have things without working for them, they will be charged justly.


I understand you don’t see the signs and wonders. I won’t push the issue with you. But for the Sages, they see it ever so clearly.

I find this an odd reply. You don’t know, yet you discount what’s been presented on the matter.

Even Jesus disciples failed to understand Jesus, and they were with him daily. But they saw the signs and wonders and believed in those. Jesus even prompted the teachers of the law to take into account his signs and wonders.

When we parse the text, we can loose sight of the signs and wonders and the law becomes rigid and without life. Jesus says to those who look at the Bible in such a way and he asks, “Why do you search the scriptures for eternal life”? For those unwilling to hear what others are saying miss what is being said.

From Memory, this is a short summary of Exodus 15.

Pharaoh and his army are swallowed in the sea. Miriam then leads Israel in song and dance over the victory. In doing so, she does not consider the lives lost at the hand of the Lord. There is no mourning for the destruction of those following Pharoah.

The celebration is short lived and they go three days without water. Both the three days and water are significant for reasons we won’t get into at the moment.
When they do find water, it is too bitter to drink until Moses cries out, and he places a piece of wood in the water to make it drinkable.

Keep in mind, God has been silent for three days, and what does he say? He admonished them and reminds them…

They then move to the next camp and there are 70 palm trees. This represents the 70 Sanhedrin appointed to rule the courts and like a palm tree, they are to be flexible and weather the storm.

There is much more I could write, but I hope this gives a better overview of how I understand this event.

The Priests we’re to understand Torah at a very intimate level. I believe Ezekiel takes his queue from Exodus 15.

Stovebolts, this is pretty interesting. First, you are wrong if you think you have affected me emotionally. You haven’t in the least. I suspect it’s the other way around. It would be better if you dropped the ad hominem attacks.

As for seeing signs and wonders, you ever prayed for the lame and they got up and walk? I have and they did and it wasn’t a show. Signs and wonders are God doing in the physical world what we cannot do, not making old testament passages say something not even Moses understood them to be the communication. Israel was reprimanded for groaning, not rejoicing at being freed from a murdering army intent on killing them.

What I read in your post is a justification of stealing, probably you stealing and the memory of which likely hangs on you. Here’s the evidence in your post:

1. Your stealing “calls for discernment”

2. “those who have the means should not put those in need of food without in most cases.” (someone else’s fault they stole)

3. “stealing is wrong and should be avoided” (merely avoided like eating too much)

4. “Because those in need are those who can’t work, or can’t find work. Give to them so they don’t find themselves in a position to steal just to eat.” (not their fault)

5. If one is forced to steal his food because nobody will hire him or give him a handout, then God will not only take that into account, (noticed “forced”)

6. But to your point, those who steal just to have things without working for them, they will be charged justly. (Only some stealing is wrong, if you don’t need it.)

You are justifying your choices back then. You know, as a child I stole from a store and God convicted me so much, I went back and made restitution (paid them) and I was free. It is a biblical
principle that when we sin against someone and are going before God to give to him, he wants us to first go back and make our wrong right with our brother and then present our gift to God. Do you need that passage reference?

Now here’s a passage to consider,

Psalm 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Now the problem in the views you expressed is that you, the thief, make yourself the judge as to whether it’s wrong. You do not make the victim you stole from the judge of the matter. Again, if a man decides in his own favor that he needs something you own and it’s not his fault he cannot buy it, would you apply these same arguments? Would you tell him stealing your stuff is to avoided but since it’s a need and not his fault he hasn’t funds, you can live with that?

This is the test as to how deeply you really believe your defense.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Back in your post #45 you said: "That’s like the Muslims, “whatever horrible suffering I choose to inflict upon you is Allahs will.”

I see no philosophy in that statement you made, but only that of what Mohammed wrote in his Quran. Again, not every Muslim is Jihad and only want to live in peace with everyone. Just like everyone who says they are a Christian, but yet deny the power there of as they only have a form of godliness, 2 Timothy 3:1-7.

The Muslim philosophy is fatalistic. Whatever happens is the will of Allah. This is philosophy, not a particular person. It’s like saying Americans think liberty is of supreme value. That’s a comment on the general philosophy in the US but not an individual. It’s a worldview.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think folk have been a little harsh. Your comments are not – in my opinion – an attack on Islam (a caricature’); rather, they are the fruit of an honest misunderstanding.

Maybe this will help:

The Beloved says:

‘Do not say of anything, “I will do that tomorrow,” without adding, “God willing,” and whenever you
forget, remember your Lord and say, “May my Lord guide me closer to what is right.”’ (Al-Kahf: 23-24).

In these verses, we are reminded that we should never make a promise regarding what we intend to do at some future time, without acknowledging that the fulfilment of that promise depends entirely on the Beloved’s Will.

Muslims are called upon to acknowledge His Will in all such matters by adding the conditional clause ‘in šāʾ Allāh’ (‘if God wills’). This clause has its counterpart in the words ‘Deo Volente’ (often abbreviate, by Catholics, to ‘DV’; as in, for example, ‘I’ll see you at Mass this afternoon, DV’).

This practice serves as a constant reminder that nothing happens outside the Beloved’s Will; and is an acknowledgement that the future is very much in His hands.

That nothing can happen without the Beloved’s Will is not, and never has been, a reason to behave as we wish; to do whatever is sinful, whenever we please; free of any person responsibility.

You will have seen – in the movies, or on TV – one person behaving cruelly towards another, and then saying (reproachfully): ‘Look what you made me do!

The correct response to this accusation is ‘No, sunshine, you did that all on your very own; and the responsibility is entirely yours!’

The Beloved is in no way responsible for our actions. They belong to us. That is why I wrote that a Muslim cannot inflict suffering on another with impunity.

And now back to the topic??

There’s a contradiction in terms but back to the topic.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I’m impressed!!

The Lord has that effect on us. To think about the abuse he went through so we might come to know him is stunning. I wouldn't have held up under that,

I obtained mercy, that in me firstJesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 1Tim.1:16

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I used to give out copies of Richard Dawkins' Outgrowing God. An old man saw me doing so (I wasn't handing one out to him), asked what I was doing, I showed him, and he hit me three times across the head with a cane. I still bear a light scar just right below my hairline.

Sometimes we need a whack in the head.

 

[Niblo]

Sometimes we need a whack in the head.

'Spare the rod and spoil the child.'

 

[journeymanisnothing]

'Spare the rod and spoil the child.'

Withhold not from a youth chastisement, When thou smitest him with a rod he dieth not. Thou with a rod smitest him, And his soul from Sheol thou deliverest.
Pro.23:13-14

 

[jaybo]

Disagreements happen as not everyone hears the Spirit of truth teaching them as they rely on man's doctrines believing everything that comes from the pulpit as many do not study to show themselves approved unto God.

Genesis 22 God was testing Abrahams faith, just as He test our faith as we walk by faith and not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 Peter 1:6-7; James 1:2-4.

Therories are nothing more than unaproved assumptions. Testing the spirits that teach us proves truth from error, 1 John 4:1-6.

We are to love God with all our heart, all our soul and all our mind, Matthew 22:37.


Thank you for those scriptures, but you only use parts and not the whole.

Job 21:7-13, the full is found in the whole chapter as Job replies that the wicker do prosper here on earth, but give no regard for the Lord.

Jeremiah 12:1 the full is found in the whole chapter as Jeremiah was complaining about the wicked and how they prosper, vs.1-4. From vs. 5-17 God answers his complaint saying the wicked will be destroyed as they walk in disobedience to God's command.

Psalms 94:3 the full is found in the whole chapter as God will cut off the wicked from Him because of their iniquity.

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, as I have previously pointed out, "study" in the KJV has a different meaning than it does today. It means "do your best" or "make every effort". It does not mean to read carefully.

"study" in modern English: devote time and attention to acquiring knowledge on (an academic subject), especially by means of books.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never said God is responsible for us repenting. It's all through His mercy and grace, even though we do not deserve it, has made away through His Son Christ Jesus that we can repent and turn back to Him as we are made righteous by His righteousness and sanctified being made whole again by the blood of Christ sacrifice He made for all who will believe by having faith in Him, John 3:16; Romans 10:5-21.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

What am I adding to this as Jesus dying for our sins is the greatest example of God's mercy and grace. I would surely think you know what God's grace, mercy and forgiveness is all about. We are all sinners saved by grace to all who will call upon His name.

I’m going to think more deeply about your statements.

“I never said God is responsible for us repenting. It's all through His mercy and grace,”

If it’s ALL through HIS grace (not nothing on our part) how is it not then his responsibility?

“I would surely think you know what God's grace, mercy and forgiveness is all about.”

This is a personal insult. I am defective if I don’t acknowledge your point.

I know you think you are honoring Him saying it’s “all by his mercy and grace” but the flip side is those who don’t become saved weren’t given his mercy or grace.

You see, it’s not all by HIS mercy and grace. He has the major role, but our small role is vital although insufficient. When those who are condemned stand before Him, they won’t be able to complain that He didn’t supply his mercy and grace to them. He will show them it wasn’t all his mercy and grace.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Lord has that effect on us. To think about the abuse he went through so we might come to know him is stunning. I wouldn't have held up under that,

Journeyman, I know it’s difficult to take a compliment in christian circles but I wasn’t impressed at that moment by the Lord but by you. Just say thank you,

I obtained mercy, that in me firstJesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 1Tim.1:16

If that scripture can be said of your life, you are blessed indeed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Disagreements happen as not everyone hears the Spirit of truth teaching them as they rely on man's doctrines believing everything that comes from the pulpit as many do not study to show themselves approved unto God.

I agree.

Genesis 22 God was testing Abrahams faith, just as He test our faith as we walk by faith and not by sight, 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 Peter 1:6-7; James 1:2-4.

Uh, no man should blithely claim he is tested as Abraham was unless there a similar testing AND a similar promise. If God isn’t speaking after the test, it isn’t like Abraham’s at all and we falsely take upon ourselves an honor we do not deserve.

Therories are nothing more than unaproved assumptions. Testing the spirits that teach us proves truth from error, 1 John 4:1-6.

Jesus tested men with questions, open and clear. It’s a valid method we shouldn’t shun for more ethereal matters.

We are to love God with all our heart, all our soul and all our mind, Matthew 22:37.


Thank you for those scriptures, but you only use parts and not the whole.

What do you think I left out? The scientific method is the mind, a valid part of the command. By pointing how isn’t leaving out anything. Loving God with the mind is outstanding.

Job 21:7-13, the full is found in the whole chapter as Job replies that the wicker do prosper here on earth, but give no regard for the Lord.

So? I didn’t say any different.

Jeremiah 12:1 the full is found in the whole chapter as Jeremiah was complaining about the wicked and how they prosper, vs.1-4. From vs. 5-17 God answers his complaint saying the wicked will be destroyed as they walk in disobedience to God's command.

Eventually. I never said any different. That they are destroyed 80 years later is not immaterial

Psalms 94:3 the full is found in the whole chapter as God will cut off the wicked from Him because of their iniquity.

Eventually and sometimes after a full life of material pleasures. This cannot be denied by honest thinkers. And yes, it matters to them.

That they will eternally regret their life’s choice is true but not a part of the discussion. The point I was countering is the idea that destruction is instant. It isn’t.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Journeyman, I know it’s difficult to take a compliment in christian circles but I wasn’t impressed at that moment by the Lord but by you. Just say thank you,

I'm grateful for my life in Christ, thanks.

If that scripture can be said of your life, you are blessed indeed.

That scripture will be said of all believers.
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph.4:23

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm grateful for my life in Christ, thanks.

I’m grateful for your life in Christ.

That scripture will be said of all believers.
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph.4:23

Not all scriptures will be said of all believers. I know it goes against the modern democratic world view, but God will say to some, „well done good and faithful servant” but only to the good and faithful servants. Jesus said they’ll be different rewards depending upon what we did. Even Jesus had three favorites who he took on special occasions. He wasn’t a democrat.

 

[Niblo]

Withhold not from a youth chastisement, When thou smitest him with a rod he dieth not. Thou with a rod smitest him, And his soul from Sheol thou deliverest.
Pro.23:13-14

As a kid, I knew more than a few schoolmasters who honoured that particular proverb

 

[jaybo]

Withhold not from a youth chastisement, When thou smitest him with a rod he dieth not. Thou with a rod smitest him, And his soul from Sheol thou deliverest.
Pro.23:13-14

Here is that proverb in English...

Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
Punish them with the rod
and save them from death.

Anyone who acts on this OT saying should be arrested for assault!

Mark 10:13-14, "People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

 

[for_his_glory]

The Muslim philosophy is fatalistic. Whatever happens is the will of Allah. This is philosophy, not a particular person. It’s like saying Americans think liberty is of supreme value. That’s a comment on the general philosophy in the US but not an individual. It’s a worldview.

Youcan believe what you want, but not all Muslims are Jihad.

 

[jaybo]

'Spare the rod and spoil the child.'

Beat the child and get arrested for assault!