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The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

The fact is Luke 16 and Matthew 17, prove beyond any doubt that soul sleep is a doctrine of man and is false to the core.

I agree.... I don't agree with soul sleep because of the following: The Gk. word for asleep in Mt. 8:24 is katheudo. It means to lie down to sleep. whereas the word asleep in 1 Thess.4:13,14 is the Gk. word koimaomai it means to be laid down in death. Colin Nicholl, Ph.D. Research Scholar at The University of Cambridge said this, referring to "Those who have fallen asleep" in 1 Thess. 4:14. "That is, the souls of those who have been in heaven with Christ up to this point The direction of movement (whether upward or downward) is debated, although the allusion to Zech. 14:5 suggests a picture of Christ coming down from heaven, bringing with Him the souls of those who have already died. Paul's point is that all the Christians who had died (fallen asleep) will be with Christ at His second coming, as Christ descends to earth Paul then explains in more detail (in 1 Thess. 4:16-17) how the dead are able to be present with Christ....that is, because their bodies will, at that moment, be resurrected and reunited with their souls, as they are "caught up to meet the Lord in the air" (V. 17).

I also like 2 Cor. 5:6-9 "We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord". (ASV)


I
 
So the Logic is that Jesus among a group of people says .............. Whosoever believes in me shall not perish does not prove the statement he made applied to anyone else?

If you're going to reply to me, please stick to what I've actually said. I have no idea where you got that from.
The TOG
 
Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mike View Post
Why would Jesus say something Abraham said if Abraham did not actually say it?
Interesting question. This (my reply) is a tangent. It is off-topic.

For me it's black and White. Jesus the same one we trust to confess our name to the father......... Would never in a million years make up a story and misquote anyone. Here He places Abraham in Hell and quotes word for Word what Abraham said...........

Jesus:
For Abraham had said!!!

If Abraham was never in this place and never said those things, then the one we trust to confess our name to the Father can not be trusted.

So, it's not a parable, does not match any other parable and if anyone misquotes us, tells others we say things that we did not say, they are liars!!!! No candy coating this at all.

If I say SparrowHawk Was browsing things at the Porn shop and SparrowHawk never set foot in any Porn shop then I have lied!!!!!

Because I said that, and to make it OK with God I just say I was telling a Parable about SparrowHawk, though I never mentioned I had been telling a Parable before I got caught in the lie and have already Tarnished SparrowHawks Good name.


So to believe Jesus was just making it all up, is to say Jesus also lies on people and misrepresents them.


Do we really forget what lying is, what deception is just because we want to believe in soul sleep and remove the reality of Hell............ Have we really gotten that full of the world to do this?


I do wonder by some belief's here.

If you're going to reply to me, please stick to what I've actually said. I have no idea where you got that from.
The TOG

TOG you have already proven that you want to base your belief's on your human experiences. This after how many scriptures given to you? There is nothing more to be done to help you at this point until the Word becomes final authority in your life. Until then what is there to do?

Mike.
 
you can't find distress and sorrow if your asleep.


If you are totally unconscious and dead then I'd agree, you cannot feel anything including distress or sorrow. If you look at Psalm 116, the first thing I bring your attention to is that the writer AIN'T DEAD. Look at the whole context. HE was in danger for his life and cried out for help from God and what do you know, verse 8 says that the Lord rescued his life from death.
@Brother Mike
Job 17:13 If I wait--Sheol is my house, In darkness I have spread out my couch.
Job fully believed he was soon to die. He says that Sheol will be his house and in that house he will just spread out his couch and wait. Nothing indicating soul sleep.
Job 17:16 To the parts of Sheol ye go down, If together on the dust we may rest. Sheol was down............ Abraham was down............
There must have been rest there for those that served God and coincides with Jesus that between God's people and Hell there was a gulf.

Of course Sheol is down, it is the grave! The grave is a place of darkness that is generally down in the ground so all who went ot Sheol could be described as going down. You posted text from Job 17, but did you read the thing? Here's verses 13-17:

13If the only home I hope for is the grave,
if I spread out my bed in the realm of darkness,
14if I say to corruption, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘My mother’ or ‘My sister,’
15where then is my hope—
who can see any hope for me?
16Will it go down to the gates of death?
Will we descend together into the dust?”

Nowhere in this text is there a mention of doing anything or feeling anything in death. Unless you are saying that "spreading out one's bed in darkness" is to be taken as a literal act as opposed to being understood as being dead, then this text is clearly not advocating activity in death.
@Brother Mike
Eze 31:16 From the sound of his fall I have caused nations to shake, In My causing him to go down to sheol, With those going down to the pit, And comforted in the earth--the lower part, are all trees of Eden, The choice and the good of Lebanon, All drinking waters. two things here.........

Sheol had two regions......... One with water and good things. It was still down in the pit, but different and comfort. This is the place Job spoke of.

This text says NOTHING about Hadean regions! Read the whole chapter! It's a taunt against Pharoah and Eygpt's armies that begins my metaphorically comparing Assyria to a marvelous Cypress tree of Lebanon that had become great by God's providence and had subsequently pridefully began exhaulting in its own greatness. Because of that God brought about its (Assyria) destruction (Ezekial 32:11). In verse 18 Ezekiel then compare Pharoah and his allies to once mighty and now fallen Assyria and tells Pharoah that the same fate awaited them.
To make this text a descripture of life in death totally lifts it from context and misses the point!
@Brother Mike
Pro 9:18
No indication of people going to sleep there, but as guest. This came after following the women into hell. If all sleep then there would not be separate places in Hell itself and not one scripture indicates you sleep there but all sleep in the dust of the earth, their bodies dead.

Again, the texts here say NOTHING about an afterlife scenario. READ THE CHAPTER! It is speaking of the fate of foolish men that allow themselves to be enticed and brought in by the bold and foolish woman mentioned in verse 13. It tells the reader that fooling around with such a woman leads to dire consequences and destruction! It say not a word about what post-death is like.
 
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Again, the texts here say NOTHING about an afterlife scenario. READ THE CHAPTER! It is speaking of the fate of foolish men that allow themselves to be enticed and brought in by the bold and foolish woman mentioned in verse 13. It tells the reader that fooling around with such a woman leads to dire consequences and destruction! It say not a word about what post-death is like.


Of course Sheol is down, it is the grave! The grave is a place of darkness that is generally down in the ground so all who went ot Sheol could be described as going down. You posted text from Job 17, but did you read the thing? Here's verses 13-17:

I will give you the other, because I see what you see in it. I don't agree. You provided scripture and look at them different, so no fault. However, if it is just the ground then it does not denote depth of ground.

Job_11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

The scriptures indicate a depth to this place of the Hebrew Sheol. It indicates more than just dead in the dust.

You have to ask then if Hell is real? Is there enough evidence of it?

You don't become a guest to the dust but to Sheol............ A guest the the world of the dead.

God throws Hell into the lake of fire.....

He is not throwing dust into the lake of fire. I guess we branch off to prove or disprove a place where spirits had gone after death in the OT.

Mike.
 
since you compare scriptures you should be asking why Jesus would bother telling us names, why is it important to describe the place "Abraham's Bosom" Why is it important to describe what is in the place?


It's pretty clear to me why Abraham's name would be listed when you consider the audience. Jesus was reprimanding the religious and their leaders that felt their trump card was the fact that they were decendants of Abraham (See John 8). Mentioning someone else being in the favored position of Abraham and them being on the outside would really strike a cord with this audience.

We don't know that the name Lazarus was not used purposely by Jesus because of what it means, (helped by God). In the culmination of the story we see that the rich man that fared sumptously found himself on the outside while Lazarus was helped by God and ended up in the favored position of Abraham (in Abraham's bosom).
 
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The scriptures indicate a depth to this place of the Hebrew Sheol. It indicates more than just dead in the dust.


It simply tells us that it is below, how deep, it doesn't specify. Sheol, the grave, Hades, Hell, whatever one wishes to call them are basically synonyms in OT scripture.

You have to ask then if Hell is real? Is there enough evidence of it?

Depending on what you mean by or how you are defining Hell then the answer will vary. The Dante' version of pagan mythology is very likely not real and we haven't witness Tartarus where fallen spirit beings are said to be held as captives. But we know two of the Biblical renderings of Hell, the Valley of Hennom and the grave/place of the dead are very real.

God throws Hell into the lake of fire.....
In Revelation it says that death and hell (or the place of the dead) are destroyed in the lake that burns with fire and brimestone. Again, it appears that scripture backs the idea that this hell is simply the grave.
 
TOG you have already proven that you want to base your belief's on your human experiences. This after how many scriptures given to you? There is nothing more to be done to help you at this point until the Word becomes final authority in your life. Until then what is there to do?

Twist my words, perhaps? I do not base my beliefs on my personal experience. I base them on God's Word. I sometimes use my personal experience and the common experiences of others to explain things. Can you see the difference?
The TOG
 
For me it's black and White. Jesus the same one we trust to confess our name to the father......... Would never in a million years make up a story and misquote anyone. Here He places Abraham in Hell and quotes word for Word what Abraham said........... Jesus: For Abraham had said!!! If Abraham was never in this place and never said those things, then the one we trust to confess our name to the Father can not be trusted. So, it's not a parable,................

Was Mary Stevenson a liar when she said this in her Footprints poem? The last stanza reads:
The Lord replied, "The times when you have seen only one set of footprints, is when I carried you."


To call this a lie is to totally miss the point of the poem just as making the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus a literal event circumvents the intended message.
 
For me it's black and White.

I have absolutely no problem with that and the way I think about it is like this: Let's pretend that you're wrong, but just for a second. Can God cause you to know this? Undoubtedly. May I help Him? Perhaps, but really? And especially if I also believe the issue is black and white, with me wearing the white hat? I would almost always disqualify myself from the attempt. Well, unless the Lord specifically told me something to tell you, and in that case? Yes, we could speak but my part would be prefaced with, "Thus saith the Lord:..." and it would continue from there.

Again though, I have absolutely zero problem, none, not even one(!) with your firmly held belief. Are not told to prove the truth and to hold it fast? Indeed we are.
 
It's pretty clear to me why Abraham's name would be listed when you consider the audience. Jesus was repremanding the religious and their leaders that felt their trump card was the fact that they were decendants of Abraham (See John 8).

No doubt that Abraham did carry authority with these people.

We don't know that the name Lazarus was not used purposely by Jesus because of what it means, (helped by God). In the culmination of the story we see that the rich man that fared sumptously found himself on the outside while Lazarus was helped by God and ended up in the favored position of Abraham (in Abraham's bosom).

No argument here.

It boils down to what we hear and is it Word or just things instilled in us that we use to understand the Word.

Salvation means to everyone eternal life but the Word certainly does not mean that. What does hell mean when we hear it?

The impact would have been just as good as if hell was real............ Understand that.

So then something else must be in the way because there is no indication Jesus told a parable, It's not like any other parable.

What you got out of it is this?

In the culmination of the story we see that the rich man that fared sumptously found himself on the outside while Lazarus was helped by God and ended up in the favored position of Abraham (in Abraham's bosom).

What I got out of it is that, what happens if you mistreat someone, the place you go and the name of it, and a description of it. So, I get your understanding and I get a glimpse of Hell itself.

So then I have to ask, why remove the description of Hell and the reality of it? What is up with that?

TRUTH over TRADITION

So, if this is just a parable though Jesus gave the real person involved in it. Abraham and the beggar. Gave the exact location then...........

Mat_5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

With that logic, then every other place Jesus mentioned must have just been a parable and all make believe. In fact, all the disciples had to be make believe, who would even know.

That is the Logic I am seeing here.

Mat_8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

This a parable,?


Here is the Problem I have. If I don't want to believe something, then it's a parable or just spiritual. Even though it does not match anything else that would be a parable or spiritual. There would be no reason not to believe in Hell a real place unless I just don't want to believe in Hell.

So, since we don't take anything out of context......... Find me one more parable that Jesus used that used a real place and real names.......... Go ahead. Otherwise anything at this point is a parable if I don't want to believe it.


Just one.......

----------------------------------------------------

To call this a lie is to totally miss the point of the poem just as making the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus a literal event circumvents the intended message.

I got the same thing you got from what Jesus said, I just did not take the effort to remove Hell or discredit Abraham.

Mike.
 
since you compare scriptures you should be asking why Jesus would bother telling us names, why is it important to describe the place "Abraham's Bosom" Why is it important to describe what is in the place?


It's pretty clear to me why Abraham's name would be listed when you consider the audience. Jesus was reprimanding the religious and their leaders that felt their trump card was the fact that they were decendants of Abraham (See John 8). Mentioning someone else being in the favored position of Abraham and them being on the outside would really strike a cord with this audience.

We don't know that the name Lazarus was not used purposely by Jesus because of what it means, (helped by God). In the culmination of the story we see that the rich man that fared sumptously found himself on the outside while Lazarus was helped by God and ended up in the favored position of Abraham (in Abraham's bosom).

I see you have brought up the point of Lazarus and his name, again.

I get the impression from you, that because his name has a certain meaning, that somehow upholds the idea that this is a parable.

What does the name Moses mean?

What does the name Abraham mean?

How about the rich mans 5 brothers, and then concern he had for them, does that seem significant to you.

How did this rich man recognize Abraham and Lazarus so far away, even though they were not in the natural body.

There are many things that we could discuss about this story.

Why the focus of the name of Lazarus?


JLB
 
TOG you have already proven that you want to base your belief's on your human experiences. This after how many scriptures given to you? There is nothing more to be done to help you at this point until the Word becomes final authority in your life. Until then what is there to do?

Twist my words, perhaps? I do not base my beliefs on my personal experience. I base them on God's Word. I sometimes use my personal experience and the common experiences of others to explain things. Can you see the difference?
The TOG

Explaining your experiences in light of God's Word is awesome.

Building a doctrine on your experience and opinion that contradicts scripture is foolishness.

Thats the difference.


JLB
 
What you got out of it is this?


I honestly for most of my life bought into the idea that Luke 16 spoke of th post death state. I looked at it as a literal story without much regard for the biblical context surrounding it and Jesus' interactions with the Jewish leaders of the day. Ten years or so ago I would have told you that Luke 16 describes the "Hadean Realm" which to me was the place the soul went after death as we await the the resurrection and final judgment. Back them during my amillenial days, I had to rationalize this "Bosom of Abraham" being a waiting place in light of the scriptures that discussed the judgment and in a last day setting.

The more I opened my mind as I studied the more it seemed like my understanding caused problems in trying to harmonize the entirety of the biblical narrative as it relates to death, the judgment, and eternity. In light of what most of scripture says about these things, I found that my view needed some adjusting so I started looking for some answers and low and behold i9n the course of studying with some SDA friends, I was presented with scripture that supported a view I had previously thought to be in error.

I'm so glad you brought up Matthew 8 as it illustrates the point of context I keep harping on about understanding Luke 16 properly. Here again we have Jesus in verses 11 and 12 saying that the Jews would be on the outside looking in while people of the nations would be partakers in the blessing of the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 could act as a summary of the message Jesus was delivering in the story of The Rich Man & Lazarus. This Matthew passage isn't an allegory, it was a prediction that proclaimed what was going to happen. Parables/allegories are typically stories that illustrate a life lesson. This doesn't seem to fit that bill as much as it appear prophetic in nature.

I got the same thing you got from what Jesus said, I just did not take the effort to remove Hell or discredit Abraham.

Clearly we did not get the same message Mike. This text for one doesn't speak about Hell (as in the opposite of Heaven). The term used is Hades and Hades in not one and the same with the idea of an eternal place of torture. The Hadean realm was a sort of purgatory where souls went during death awaiting the final judgment. So in verse 23, we have the rich man lifting his eyes in this place of the dead, not Hell. This "place of the dead" is the Hades spoken of in Revelation 20 where we read that it, along with death a thrown into the lake of fire/the 2nd death.

As for Abraham being discredited, I'm still missing this. This idea that Jesus somehow discredited Abraham by using his name in a parable is akin to the thinking of the Jews in John 8:56-57 that made a similar accusation against Jesus for invoking Abraham's name.
 
I see you have brought up the point of Lazarus and his name, again. I get the impression from you, that because his name has a certain meaning, that somehow upholds the idea that this is a parable. What does the name Moses mean? What does the name Abraham mean? How about the rich mans 5 brothers, and then concern he had for them, does that seem significant to you. There are many things that we could discuss about this story. Why the focus of the name of Lazarus?


I totally agree with you that there are many things discussion worthy related to this story. We could attempt to identify all parties from the Rich Man representing the Jews to Lazarus being the people of the nations to the 5 brothers being the maternal brothers of Judah. The name Lazarus is but one place to focus. As you state, the entirety of what was written deserves some focus.

How did this rich man recognize Abraham and Lazarus so far away, even though they were not in the natural body.

This is a good indication and evidence that the story was a parable as opposed to a retelling of an actual happening. When we run across such apparent impossibilities like what you brought up and other examples like Revelation 12:1-4, we'd do well not to overliteralize the stories. Instead we need to look at the greater context and let it help us get meaning from what's being said.
 
and low and behold i9n the course of studying with some SDA friends, I was presented with scripture that supported a view I had previously thought to be in error.

If you studied something taught by an SDA teacher, then that explains why you "changed" your doctrine.


JLB
 
I see you have brought up the point of Lazarus and his name, again. I get the impression from you, that because his name has a certain meaning, that somehow upholds the idea that this is a parable. What does the name Moses mean? What does the name Abraham mean? How about the rich mans 5 brothers, and then concern he had for them, does that seem significant to you. How did this rich man recognize Abraham and Lazarus so far away, even though they were not in the natural body. There are many things that we could discuss about this story. Why the focus of the name of Lazarus?


I totally agree with you that there are many things discussion worthy related to this story. We could attempt to identify all parties from the Rich Man representing the Jews to Lazarus being the people of the nations to the 5 brothers being the maternal brothers of Judah. The name Lazarus is but one place to focus. As you state, the entirety of what was written deserves some focus.

Since Jesus used three different people's names, then we can conclude that this is not a parable, and dismiss the idea that the brothers represent "something else".

How about the question, How did the rich man recognize Abraham having never met him?


JLB
 
How about the question, How did the rich man recognize Abraham having never met him?

This is a good indication and evidence that the story was a parable as opposed to a retelling of an actual happening. When we run across such apparent impossibilities like what you brought up and other examples like Revelation 12:1-4, we'd do well not to overliteralize the stories. Instead we need to look at the greater context and let it help us get meaning from what's being said.

Since Jesus used three different people's names, then we can conclude that this is not a parable,

Why?
 
Before you go much further TOG I'm thinking you should read this, when a fellow Christian makes a statement that leads off with "If" its not a good sign..

II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

tob
 
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