The thess bashing thread

[ttg]

This thread has gotten off topic so allow me to bring it back in line

Thess, "noone" is not a word. No one should be afraid of a spell check now and then. :D

 

[Heidi]

One really hs to work at twisting; Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-12, Luke 1:47, Leviticus 26:1, etc. to say what the catholics want to say. It takes a lot of time and effort, re-writing definitions, a vivid imagination and most of all, a fierce determination to disagree with God's word to come up with the beliefs of the catholics. ;-)

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

One really hs to work at twisting; Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-12, Luke 1:47, Leviticus 26:1, etc. to say what the catholics want to say.

Why is it that when you read Scripture and reflect on it, it's called 'interpretation', but when Catholics do the same thing it's called distortion?

 

[Heidi]

+JMJ+

One really hs to work at twisting; Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-12, Luke 1:47, Leviticus 26:1, etc. to say what the catholics want to say.

Why is it that when you read Scripture and reflect on it, it's called 'interpretation', but when Catholics do the same thing it's called distortion?

You don't interpret scripture, you believe it. What the catholics call interpretation is adding or subtracting words and replacing them with their own in the catechism. True Christians don't do that. We believe the bible exactly as written. only when man tries to "interpret" the bible instead of simply believing it do distortions occur, Fulton.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

heidi, sola scriptura (bible alone) is a heresy. generally catholics stoop to that level to play your game cause we cant reach you otherwise. kinda how Jesus had to become a man so he could reach us without blowing us away. its your distortion. we are just trying to correct you on a level you will listen at. so we pull together some scripture that may be shaky today, however historically made perfect sense and so thats what it become. then a rogue priest decided he was gonna throw out tradition and make himself a god and we have sola scriptura today. thats not how its supposed to be. the Bible is incomplete (especially yours. 7 books short, i believe). its the Word of God, but not the entire Word of God. you should study history too.

and Thess... what can i say buddy? just a bad apple... ;-)

 

[mutzrein]

Scripture and tradition in whatever form and of itself, does not reveal truth - because it is subject to the interpretation of man. It is The Spirit that leads us into all truth - and this to those who are born of the same Spirit.

And this is why doctrines of men lead to fear of damnation and bondage to the flesh, rather than freedom in Christ and life in the Spirit.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Scripture and tradition in whatever form and of itself, does not reveal truth - because it is subject to the interpretation of man. It is The Spirit that leads us into all truth - and this to those who are born of the same Spirit.
And this is why doctrines of men lead to fear of damnation and bondage to the flesh, rather than freedom in Christ and life in the Spirit.

Who determines what is of the Sprirt and what is not?

Where exactly in sacred Scripture does it say we must go by Scripture alone?

 

[thessalonian]

Scripture and tradition in whatever form and of itself, does not reveal truth - because it is subject to the interpretation of man. It is The Spirit that leads us into all truth - and this to those who are born of the same Spirit.

And this is why doctrines of men lead to fear of damnation and bondage to the flesh, rather than freedom in Christ and life in the Spirit.

I actually agree with this wholeheartedly. So how do you know if you truly have the spirit that is leading to truth. The Mormons think so. Trinitarians do as well. So does Imagican and Solo, and Heidi, and Klee Shee, and Ginger. All have different "truth" than you in various forms. Guess yours is all right.

The scripture tell us that truth is revealed, taught\passed along as tradition, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. It is not just the Holy Spirit teaching it. In order for your particular understandings to be valid they must have as their source Apostolic (meaning from the Apostles) origens, as there is no new revelation according to the passage that says "delivered ONCE FOR ALL" to the saints. It must have been passed on through the ages, since it is FOR ALL, meaning for men in every generation and today, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. So if you can show how every generation believed what you believe then you can show us that it is true. Good luck.

 

[thessalonian]

Only me Thess? "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" LUKE: 6:41

You make such a statement because you do not understand. My theology is not "my theology" as in what I have come up with in the little neurons in my brain. It is not Pope Benedict XVI's theology, nor is it JP's. They came up with nothing new. Nor did the 284 Popes before them or the councils before them. They simply passed on what the Church taught and did it with great reverence as the "shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". I have an obligation to give you what has been given by Christ to his Apostles and passed on down through the ages. If I do not do that God help me. Benedict XVI has made statements recently indicating how seriously he takes this matter as well. We do not teach opinions and our own theologies in Catholicism. We stirve to pass on the word of God "just as it was deliverd".


Phil.4
[9] What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

1Cor.11
[2] I COMMEND you because you remember me in EVERYTHING and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
[23] For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,

2 tm
1]
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus,
[2] and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Do you have this teaching that has been passed on? How do you know?


Jude.1
[3] Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Can you show me where it says this was done only in writing?

Yes, I am ANY man also. So do not believe my sentiments but rather search for the living God in His Son's words I declare before you.

I showed you the Lord's words and you have refused to address them. Rather accusing me of what you have not numbered yourself in also.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" LUKE 6:46

No, I simply did not address them according to your understanding as I recall. Your understanding of them is incorrect.

Are we not all guilty of the same? "Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?" LUKE 6:39

Therefore I declare the Lord's words, who is not blind but rather has received all things from His Father in heaven. Rightly so you should be weary of my understanding Thess; but to that which I show you of the Lord's you should trust as truth. "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." MARK 13:23

You declare them in the context of your understanding (i.e. your own little tradition). But you do not understand them. You cannot without his grace and without his Church. Sorry.

I share with you Thess because I know you love the Lord; and any words I share of his will not deminish that love whatsoever. God Bless.

Ditto.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi FSW - my responses in green

+JMJ+

Scripture and tradition in whatever form and of itself, does not reveal truth - because it is subject to the interpretation of man. It is The Spirit that leads us into all truth - and this to those who are born of the same Spirit.
And this is why doctrines of men lead to fear of damnation and bondage to the flesh, rather than freedom in Christ and life in the Spirit.

Who determines what is of the Sprirt and what is not?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Where exactly in sacred Scripture does it say we must go by Scripture alone?

Nowhere to my knowledge. I have not claimed that it does.

 

[Klee shay]

You make such a statement because you do not understand.

No I don't understand the things of my Father, except through the Son and even so it is only what he reveals for God's glory. "..If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." JOHN 9:41

Do you believe the Lord's words? He is talking to those who say "We see". Rightly so you judge me blind, for it is Jesus who leads and sees the things that are of God.

As for the rest for your post, it was made under the premise that I do not understand and am incorrect anyway; therefore to respond would be pointless.

 

[mutzrein]

Scripture and tradition in whatever form and of itself, does not reveal truth - because it is subject to the interpretation of man. It is The Spirit that leads us into all truth - and this to those who are born of the same Spirit.

And this is why doctrines of men lead to fear of damnation and bondage to the flesh, rather than freedom in Christ and life in the Spirit.

I actually agree with this wholeheartedly. So how do you know if you truly have the spirit that is leading to truth. The Mormons think so. Trinitarians do as well. So does Imagican and Solo, and Heidi, and Klee Shee, and Ginger. All have different "truth" than you in various forms. Guess yours is all right.

There is only one Truth. You cannot have different ‘truths’ if those ‘truths’ differ or disagree. Now I am not saying that I have all knowledge and all wisdom. Only God does. But, since it is the Spirit of God that leads us into all truth we have to understand that disagreement on one or more points of doctrine does not disqualify anyone from being a child of God. You see all who are born of the Spirit of God are his children. None of us are born into maturity. We are children, and as we grow and mature it is the Spirit that leads us into truth. Our understandings and our beliefs are bound to change as we grow. That is the nature of things. So to me it is not what we believe as much as whether or not we are actually born of the Spirit.

Now I have offered to mail you a document which amongst others points, speaks about this. You are quite welcome to read it if you wish but I will leave that entirely up to you.

The scripture tell us that truth is revealed, taught\passed along as tradition, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. It is not just the Holy Spirit teaching it. In order for your particular understandings to be valid they must have as their source Apostolic (meaning from the Apostles) origens, as there is no new revelation according to the passage that says "delivered ONCE FOR ALL" to the saints. It must have been passed on through the ages, since it is FOR ALL, meaning for men in every generation and today, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. So if you can show how every generation believed what you believe then you can show us that it is true. Good luck.

I don’t need luck Thess. Neither do I need to show you that every generation believed what I believe. This is like saying that everything that we know now has been known precisely by those who preceded us. Thess, we are not all the same. And God has seen to it that he has given some men light & wisdom and knowledge concerning the things of God down through the ages. He has ordained these men to reveal things of the Spirit of God that have not formerly been revealed. But the revelation does not change the truth. In fact, since it revealed by the Spirit of God it leads us into (more) truth – more understanding of the wonders of our God.

Tradition is not of the Spirit. It is of man. Sure, as I have said, God has revealed many truths to men down through the ages. There is nothing wrong with these revealed truths. But even when these truths are converted into codes or doctrines which must be adhered to in order to be made righteous or to be part of a group which deems itself to be ‘right’, then man has created another tradition.

And rightly Jesus spoke to the religious of his day when he said, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is ritten: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

 

[thessalonian]

Mutz,

You seem to like selective quoting. Traditions of man that are exalted over tradition of God is bad. But not all tradition is bad. The scriptures tell us that the scriptures themselves are tradition. "Hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have recieved, whether BY WORD OF MOUTH, or IN WRITING FROM US". Scripture is tradition Mutz. Get it.

Why do you think I have not asked you to send me your article. I'll tell you why. Because hearing the endless Protestant theories on why each individual protestant thinks he has the truth on this board has bored me to tears. But send it and I will have a look. You have a PM.

 

[gingercat]

You seem to like selective quoting.

You don't seem to realize that that's what all of us are doing.

That's why it is meaningless to quote the Scriptures; we use the Scriptures to prove points rather than have them made by the Scriptures.

That's why the Bible says we know by our fruit whether we are true followers or not.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Yes, I see. By reading this verse I understand that through the Holy Spirit of God, we come to know the truth.

What is truth?

What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

 

[thessalonian]

You seem to like selective quoting.

You don't seem to realize that that's what all of us are doing.

That's why it is meaningless to quote the Scriptures; we use the Scriptures to prove points rather than have them made by the Scriptures.

That's why the Bible says we know by our fruit whether we are true followers or not.

No, I in fact realize it all too well. Everybody pridefully coming up with their own theologies. It is sad that quoting scripture has become meaningless because it has been so watered down by everyone's opinion. Bearing fruit is key of course. But bearing fruit depends on truth and a correct understanding of scripture brings about fruit. So that scripture has become meaningless is very sad.

 

[thessalonian]

Klee,

Should I follow God or men?"

You follow yourself. You are a man. God says "trust not in your own understanding" but that is what you do. Sorry.

Thess,

This is such a lame accusation. You have been doing this over and over. We are not following ourselves. We are following the Bible. Just because we don't agree with your pope does not mean we are not following God.

I have been volunteer evangelist for 7 years since I became Christian and have been talking and asking all kinds of people.

Most of the churchgoers both Catholics and Protestants don't read the Bible on a daily basis. If your organization is such an godly ones why are you failing to lead your flocks as they should go?

How can you follow God without reading the Bible daily?

Do you even know if your congregation is reading the Bible on a regular basis?

I happen to read the Bible daily. My parish has daily Mass in which the Bible is read daily. Most parishes in my aread have daily Mass in which scripture is read daily. The Constitution on Divine Revelation encourages daily bible reading. Priests are required to read their breveries daily, which include scripture readings. So I do not believe the Church neglects scripture reading.

 

[GundamZero]

Wasn't this a "Thess bashing Thread" :smt021

Scripture ought not be used by itself. When you give a scripture reference, it's often good to have several verses, because the best way to interpret scripture is to use scripture.

But to fully understand Truth, we must understand Christ. You see, Christ spoke in parables because only His flock could understand it. But when he spoke to his Disciples later on in his life, he didn't use any double meaning. He said that he is the Truth. There is no metaphor there. When you accept that, then and only then may you truly interpret the Word of God.

Theology is meaningless when we use it to stare at God from afar. Is it not much sweeter to hold and smell and feel a rose than to know the botony of it? How much sweeter is it to know Christ than to undertand theology.

As for the Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church, or the Baptist Church, we must understand that there really is only one Church. And that Church's one foundation is Christ Jesus her Lord. Not the Baptist Chairperson, or a Lutheran minister, or the Pope. We must build our foundations on Christ and not even on our similarities and differences. When we run across a disagreement, let us realise that we know the One who has the answer.

Let us not add to the Word of God. Let us not detract from the Word of God. Let us not hold the word of God on trial, because there is nothing suspect in the Word of God.

Grace.

 

[gingercat]

I agree gundam :D

Let's not call anyone non-believers or non-Christians because they dont agree with some specific theology like trinity.

 

[thessalonian]

Gundam,

How do you feel about people who deny the trinity? Are they Christian?