The thess bashing thread

[Imagican]

Good one Klee,

So few seem to understand how easy it is for the 'father of lies' to beguile them into beliefs in that which is NOT of God. His deceptions are obvious in that so many seem oblivious to his devices and instead of following the 'truth' in Christ, have allowed 'false Christs' to be their 'gods'.

And the churches seem rife with such teachings. We have the Word and in IT is what we NEED. The churches have taken this and altered it to teach what 'they' need and that those that follow 'them', instead of God through Christ, are to offer this instead of what we have been commanded.

There IS a deceiver among us. He has been here since the beginning and over time has learned EXACTLY what we desire to follow. Is it any wonder that so many fall to his temptations. I don't mean simply to follow temptation to 'sin', I mean follow the temptation to worship 'other' gods and therefore have NO CHANCE of receiving the gifts offered by God through His Son. And these will INSIST that you must follow 'their' way in order to be 'one of them'. Beware folks. Do NOT ignore the simplicity that IS Jesus Christ. Stop seeking your OWN and get back to what 'matters most'.

It is EACH individual's job to discern the spirit behind EVERYTHING. This CANNOT be done without a firm grasp of the principles offered in the Word. This means that one MUST learn the Word or open themselves up to following 'men' rather than God. it is OUR job as individuals to develope a personal relationship with the FAther through His Son and to abandon this following church leaders, which is to place ones faith in 'men' rather than the Father. Good luck with this approach.

Step back, start over with Christ as the HEAD of the Body and watch the Spirit 'work'.

 

[Henry]

gingercat

sorry you feel that way, but the bible teaches God is three persons but one God and I came from a oneness cult, when you take the trinity and the true nature of God out of the mix abuse will follow.

 

[gingercat]

gingercat

sorry you feel that way, but the bible teaches God is three persons but one God and I came from a oneness cult, when you take the trinity and the true nature of God out of the mix abuse will follow.

Henry,

I have been reading the Bible like everyone else. I have come to the conclusion that trinity is not biblical. We have to wait on His judgment on who is correct. Meantime, I will not be intimidated by the majority's ostracism. :D

 

[Imagican]

Henry,

And let me too offer that I TOO have read and studied the Bible. There is NO 'trinity' contained within the words of it. There is even very little evidence that 'trinitarians' themselves use to 'prove' this doctrine and that is SO sketchy that I believe one would be hard pressed to accept this concept if not for 'other' people 'pushing' it on them.

I know God and I know Christ. I know NO 'trinity'. There is NOTHING in the Word that states that I MUST accept that there are 'three persons in one God'. NOTHING. It is a 'man-made' doctrine and this is PERFECTLY clear to ANYONE that has EVER read the Word and studied the history of 'trinity'.

There is much to be learned by those that INSIST on 'trinity'. Their adamance towards this doctrine speaks volumes as to it's nature. For someone to insist that a doctrine that doesn't EXIST in the Word MUST be followed is an insistence that one must follow MEN rather than the Father through Christ.

Christ IS the intercessor. To be the intercessor makes it impossible for Christ to BE God. Christ IS the ONLY begotten of God. This makes it impossible for Christ to BE God. 'Trinitarians' claim that this impossibility is a 'mystery'. I find enough mystery in the Godhead without the introduction of a doctrine that is NOT in the Word.

To make Christ God is to take away what we have been commanded and insert 'man's' understanding of something that neither God, His Son, or the Holy Spirit has offered. To make Christ God is to create a 'different' God than what we have been offered. To worship Christ AS God is to totally ignore what we have been commanded. To 'make' Christ God is to create a 'false god' and therefore to render 'both' of NO POWER. For to worship something that doesn't exist is to worship in vain.

God IS God and there is NO other. There is ONLY ONE. Christ WE KNOW is the ONLY Begotten. Christ IS the Son of God. To be the Son makes it perfectly obvious that He CAN'T be the Father. Yet 'trinity' can't explain this in ANY way that makes any sense whatsoever. What I offer not only makes PERFECT sense, it IS what is STATED in the Word.

I leave you with this to ponder:

1 Peter 1:1-5

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Please note that this plainly states that God is not only our God, but THE GOD of Jesus Christ also. For it IS STATED THUS: The God AND Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, How can God be THE GOD AND FATHER of Jesus Christ and Christ BE God? Hard one to explain through 'trinity' huh? Jesus Christ IS the Son of God. God IS His Father. This we can rest assured in. That Christ IS God is a -man-made' doctrine that destroys what we have been given and replaces it instead with something we have NEVER been given by God, Christ or the apostles.

 

[mutzrein]

Henry - I will add to what gingercat & Imagican have said - and said well I believe.

Lets not muddy the water with inferences that those who deny the trinity are all the same. You said

when you take the trinity and the true nature of God out of the mix, abuse will follow

Sure there are cults who deny the trinity just the same as there are denominations that enforce it. It is not the doctrine itself which brings about the abuse. What brings abuse is the fear that those who wield these doctrines use, to keep others in their fold. So the cults will say something like, “If you stop believing as we do and you leave us, you will lose your salvation.†They are using fear to manipulate.

On the other hand, much of Christendom says, “If you don’t believe as we do then you are not part of us and cannot be ‘saved’." This again is using fear to manipulate and no more abusive than many 'cults'. They get people to parrot the words, say they ‘believe in their heart’ and hey presto they are a Christian.
No wonder there are so many who believe they are Christians when in fact they are not. They are no more born of the Spirit than my german shepherd.

So tell me I’m wrong Henry. I would love to think I was but unfortunately I can cite many (and some on this board too), who believe that you cannot be a Christian without believing in the trinity. It is nothing more than a doctrine of man.

Now you and I know that those who are born of the spirit of God bear the fruit of righteousness. So I will ask you a very simple question. What is it that ‘makes’ person a Christian? Is it being born of the Spirit of God or is it a doctrine of man that requires a person to believe in a concept that the old testament NEVER mentioned, the prophets NEVER spoke of, Jesus NEVER preached, Paul NEVER wrote about, not to mention the authors of any other book in the bible.

OH sure, you can take a verse from here, another from there, use semantics, say that this means that therefore this is the same as that and HEY PRESTO we have the trinity folks and you better believe it! In fact if you don’t believe it you can’t be one of us.

No you don’t Henry and Sothenes and anyone else who is reading this. This is NOT THE GOSPEL. This is not the righteousness of Christ that I know. In fact it is no righteousness at all.

 

[Imagican]

Mutz, I will find it difficult to believe that anyone could read what you have offered and deny what has been revealed. You have quite eloquently summed up EVERYTHING about this doctrine that matters. Nice post my friend and from my perspective THIS is the Spirit of 'truth'.

God Bless you brother.

MEC

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Jesus said "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" yet you catholics call people FATHER.

What about 1 Corinthians 4:15, where Paul call himself a father?
Or what about how he calls Abraham Father?
Is Paul a heretic?

 

[Imagican]

+JMJ+

Jesus said "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" yet you catholics call people FATHER.

What about 1 Corinthians 4:15, where Paul call himself a father?
Or what about how he calls Abraham Father?
Is Paul a heretic?

Fulton,

NO, by NO means is Paul an heretic. Paul WAS a Father 'figure' to the gentiles. He brought the words of Christ to them thus allowing the Spirit to dwell with the Gentiles ALSO. To 'beget' is to 'Father'. Paul certainly brought the Gentiles into the 'body', thereby, in a way, he WAS their spiritual 'Father' of sorts.

And Abraham IS a Father 'figure' also. For through Abraham was the covenant made with his seed, for ALL time. Abraham would have the FIRST of God's chosen. We know this for we have the words professing that the Hebrews and then Jews are DIRECT descendants of Abraham and his seed. The Arab nations too were Fathered by Abraham. That would make the Jews and Arabs 'step-brothers', with Abraham as BOTH their Father.

So, I am not really sure what any of this has to do with what is being discussed, but I believe that the answers that I have offered are pretty clear.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Fulton,

NO, by NO means is Paul an heretic. Paul WAS a Father 'figure' to the gentiles. He brought the words of Christ to them thus allowing the Spirit to dwell with the Gentiles ALSO. To 'beget' is to 'Father'. Paul certainly brought the Gentiles into the 'body', thereby, in a way, he WAS their spiritual 'Father' of sort

I agree. This is why we Catholics call our priests, "Father"; For the exact reasons you just so elequently explained for St. Paul.

I just wanted to point out to Henry that Jesus was not eliminating the title Father altogether. So long as we do not address anyone on earth as Father to the same magnitude as Almighty God.

 

[thessalonian]

Klee,

Should I follow God or men?"

You follow yourself. You are a man. God says "trust not in your own understanding" but that is what you do. Sorry.

 

[gingercat]

Klee,

Should I follow God or men?"

You follow yourself. You are a man. God says "trust not in your own understanding" but that is what you do. Sorry.

Thess,

This is such a lame accusation. You have been doing this over and over. We are not following ourselves. We are following the Bible. Just because we don't agree with your pope does not mean we are not following God.

I have been volunteer evangelist for 7 years since I became Christian and have been talking and asking all kinds of people.

Most of the churchgoers both Catholics and Protestants don't read the Bible on a daily basis. If your organization is such an godly ones why are you failing to lead your flocks as they should go?

How can you follow God without reading the Bible daily?

Do you even know if your congregation is reading the Bible on a regular basis?

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

This is such a lame accusation. You have been doing this over and over. We are not following ourselves. We are following the Bible. Just because we don't agree with your pope does not mean we are not following God.

Is that really true? I mean, don't you go by personal interpretation?
(2 Peter 1:20 ?)

Most of the churchgoers both Catholics and Protestants don't read the Bible on a daily basis. If your organization is such an godly ones why are you failing to lead your flocks as they should go?

Most Catholics? How on earth would you know that? :

How can you follow God without reading the Bible daily?

How do you know we don't?
Don't you often complain that everybody thinks you don't read the Bible because you don't beleive in the Trinity?

Do you even know if your congregation is reading the Bible on a regular basis?

For someone who cries fowl so often, your'e pretty quick to judge.. :-?

 

[gingercat]

How do you know we don't?

Do you know if your congregation reads the Bible daily? Why don't you answer the question instead of giving me smart remarks?

I ask this question because I have good reason to believe that they dont.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ

Do you know if your congregation reads the Bible daily? Why don't you answer the question instead of giving me smart remarks?

I don't. Do you?

I ask this question because I have good reason to believe that they dont.

Such as?

 

[SputnikBoy]

+JMJ

Do you know if your congregation reads the Bible daily? Why don't you answer the question instead of giving me smart remarks?

I don't. Do you?

[quote:5c5fe]I ask this question because I have good reason to believe that they dont.

Such as?[/quote:5c5fe]

When a book (print on paper) causes so much dissention as it does amongst Christians then I believe (just my opinion) that it's time to consider throwing it out.

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

Double Post

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

When a book (print on paper) causes so much dissention as it does amongst Christians then I believe (just my opinion) that it's time to consider throwing it out.

That's kinda throwin' the baby out with the bath water. The Bible should be source of unity. In order to maintain unity Jesus founded a Church to be the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Klee shay]

Klee,

Should I follow God or men?"

You follow yourself. You are a man. God says "trust not in your own understanding" but that is what you do. Sorry.

Only me Thess? "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" LUKE: 6:41

Did I not say...

Yes, I am ANY man also. So do not believe my sentiments but rather search for the living God in His Son's words I declare before you.

I showed you the Lord's words and you have refused to address them. Rather accusing me of what you have not numbered yourself in also.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" LUKE 6:46

Are we not all guilty of the same? "Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?" LUKE 6:39

Therefore I declare the Lord's words, who is not blind but rather has received all things from His Father in heaven. Rightly so you should be weary of my understanding Thess; but to that which I show you of the Lord's you should trust as truth. "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." MARK 13:23

I share with you Thess because I know you love the Lord; and any words I share of his will not deminish that love whatsoever. God Bless.

 

[Imagican]

Yes Thess,

Let me also add that you too follow men. But, for those that are willing to abandone these habits, there is something 'different' that becomes possible. Personal responsibility to the Father. You follow men of the past that 'claimed' to 'know' the truth. I contend that these are NO different than you and I. No more, NO less capable of discerning that which has been offered. The biggest difference is that they INSISTED that one must follow 'them' instead of our Father, our God.

But to accuse Klee of following men by following himself is to place yourself in the exact SAME position except that you have offered that you refuse to discern for yourself that which the Spirit offers. Stand up and cast aside that which is offered by man and accept and believe that which is offered by God through His Son. This is the ONLY way in which one could possibly receive the gift that has been offered. For to follow man is folly. And there is NOT A SINGLE MAN ON THE PLANET that can offer what has been offered through the Son.

 

[Imagican]

Sput,

Long time no see my friend.

No, it's not the words of the Word that cause the dissention. It is the spirit of man and his continued insistence that he is his 'own' God that cause the dissention. The 'hard-headedness' of man is perpetual and this is the cause of misunderstanding.

And Sput, the Word is ONLY THE BEGINNING of understanding. It is the catalyst that IS capable of bringing us to the Father through His Son. The book itself has little value until one accepts the Son and begins to live FOR the Father. At this point 'the book' is capable of offering a 'universal' understanding. One MUST let go of 'themselves' in order to 'see' this though.

So, the indication by obseving the dissention is that many simply try and use the 'book' for a purpose other than what it was designed for. It IS ONLY the beginning of understanding and without guidance of the Spirit, there is NO way that one can 'truly' understand it.