The thess bashing thread

[gingercat]

But one who does not hold to the trinity is not Christian.

^

There you have it everyone: Trinitarians' reality

You are lying about the Bible. Jesus is making sure that we know He is son of God and Savior of the world and this is the core of the Christianity, not Jesus is God.

This trinity is just another mixing up of pagan religion. RCC is not pure Christian. RCC has many, many things that mixed up with pagan religeon. Why do you think RCC added so many to the Bible? They were not happy with the original.

You are wrong to say that anyone who doesn't believe something that Jesus didn't even say isn't Christian.

 

[thessalonian]

Ginger,

It sure sounds like your saying I'm not Christian.

God bless you dear lady. :D

 

[thessalonian]

Why do you think RCC added so many to the Bible?

Many what?

 

[DivineNames]

thessalonian, were you the person saying that the infallible pronouncements of the Catholic Church didn't contain any contradictions? If so, I came across a possible counter-example given in a Hans Küng article. I will quote if your interested.

 

[Klee shay]

If you do not believe in the trinity you do not know the truth.

If you want to get technical about who knows the truth... :wink:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." MATTHEW 11:27

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not. Only the Son will reveal him (the Father) to whomsoever, but this is only the will/nature of God - not the full being of God to deem absolute truths such as trinity or not.

Actually, that's one of the things I'm really learning to respect about God. He gives only enough to sustain us - but never too much to consume an individual with spiritual independence from him. We are utterly dependant on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[thessalonian]

thessalonian, were you the person saying that the infallible pronouncements of the Catholic Church didn't contain any contradictions? If so, I came across a possible counter-example given in a Hans Küng article. I will quote if your interested.

Sure. Go ahead. I'm sure I've heard it. Kung is a confused individual but you can try.

 

[thessalonian]

If you do not believe in the trinity you do not know the truth.

If you want to get technical about who knows the truth... :wink:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." MATTHEW 11:27

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not. Only the Son will reveal him (the Father) to whomsoever, but this is only the will/nature of God - not the full being of God to deem absolute truths such as trinity or not.

Actually, that's one of the things I'm really learning to respect about God. He gives only enough to sustain us - but never too much to consume an individual with spiritual independence from him. We are utterly dependant on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It is by God's grace that men come to know his nature. That is true. But it has been revealed and so we can know and so this is false:

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not.

 

[Klee shay]

If you do not believe in the trinity you do not know the truth.

If you want to get technical about who knows the truth... :wink:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." MATTHEW 11:27

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not. Only the Son will reveal him (the Father) to whomsoever, but this is only the will/nature of God - not the full being of God to deem absolute truths such as trinity or not.

Actually, that's one of the things I'm really learning to respect about God. He gives only enough to sustain us - but never too much to consume an individual with spiritual independence from him. We are utterly dependant on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It is by God's grace that men come to know his nature. That is true. But it has been revealed and so we can know and so this is false:

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not.

Yikes Thess, I'm hoping this is just one of those lost in translation thingy's, but Jesus actually said...

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." MATTHEW 11:27

That means no man or any man period, but to whomsoever (singular) the Son will reveal. If the Son doesn't reveal it to the individual then it's man's logic teaching man, not the Son. If men teach that man knows God is trinity or is not trinity or is anything else; that is giving power to man and not our beloved Jesus.

Please tell me you don't mean that Jesus was bearing false witness when he said no or any man? Why even set the edict of no man or any man if it wasn't relevant to how we are to receive the instruction of God?

 

[thessalonian]

Klee,

No yikes at all.
First of all scripture is the Word and Jesus is the Word made flesh, so scripture is Jesus teaching us. God is revealed in scripture. This is grace. Yet the grace of understanding is also required to understand the nature of God. Thus the Holy Spirit also is needed in order to believe the trinity. There are also teachers sent by God and this is Jesus teaching us as well. "he who hears you hears me" "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and UNDERSTANDING". None of this is apart from Jesus teaching us. You are trying to trump me with your understanding of the passage and are not coming anywhere near close.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

Now, what 'proof' do YOU have that 'trinity' is ANYTHING other than what I have offered. What 'reason' do YOU have to believe that the Spirit led the RCC to 'trinity'? Neither God nor Christ nor His apostles EVER mentioned 'trinity'. This is PURELY man-made for there is NO mention of it in the Word. PERIOD. So what reason would ANYONE have to believe that a doctrine that was created by men that had to FORCE people to accept it was inspired by 'the Spirit'?

Talk about 'hand waving'. You state that this was inspired by the 'Spirit' as if you 'KNOW' this. Thess, please tell us HOW YOU KNOW?

 

[thessalonian]

They never mentioned the word dude. That's what you are hung up on. Care to discuss whether people from 200-300 years after Christ believed that Jesus was God? I have a thread on the matter. Do drop in. You like to discuss the word trinity and whether it was used. This is just a smoke screen. If they believed Jesus was God (and they did) then they had to have a theology that reconciled this matter with there being one God. They didn't call this trinity (Tertullian expounded on it) but they did have it.

Hey shall we talk about the persecutions BY people like you that held Arian views yet? You have your head in the sand on that. You of course study the histories of people you don't like but not your own history. You claim allegiance with them in theology regarding Jesus and pompusly speak on this board as such people who do not believe Jesus was God and deny the trinity would never persecute. THEY DID!

 

[mutzrein]

If you do not believe in the trinity you do not know the truth.

If you want to get technical about who knows the truth... :wink:

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." MATTHEW 11:27

If Jesus speaks with authority then no man on Earth knows if there is such a thing as trinity or not. Only the Son will reveal him (the Father) to whomsoever, but this is only the will/nature of God - not the full being of God to deem absolute truths such as trinity or not.

Actually, that's one of the things I'm really learning to respect about God. He gives only enough to sustain us - but never too much to consume an individual with spiritual independence from him. We are utterly dependant on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Good post KS. I do know what has been revealed to me as far as Jesus relationship to the Father. No man has shown me this. Of course there is much that has not been revealed to man so we are as you say, 'utterly dependant on every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'

 

[Imagican]

They never mentioned the word dude. That's what you are hung up on. Care to discuss whether people from 200-300 years after Christ believed that Jesus was God? I have a thread on the matter. Do drop in. You like to discuss the word trinity and whether it was used. This is just a smoke screen. If they believed Jesus was God (and they did) then they had to have a theology that reconciled this matter with there being one God. They didn't call this trinity (Tertullian expounded on it) but they did have it.

Hey shall we talk about the persecutions BY people like you that held Arian views yet? You have your head in the sand on that. You of course study the histories of people you don't like but not your own history. You claim allegiance with them in theology regarding Jesus and pompusly speak on this board as such people who do not believe Jesus was God and deny the trinity would never persecute. THEY DID!

I don't know what you mean by; people like me. I choose to persecute NO ONE, simply offer the 'truth' as I understand it. If one chooses to follow Satan, I am here to do NOTHING but offer the 'truth'. Mine is NOT to tell others that they are 'lost' for NOT following MY way. I simply desire that others too may know God through His Son and this is what I offer.

As far as the 'history' of the Catholic Church. I feel that I would be remiss to ignore it. And after all the studying that I have done, I am more than willing to offer my understanding in this direction also. I did NOT choose fror ANY to follow this religion Thess. They do that on their own. But, for those that don't 'know any better', I am certainly here to warn them.

Oh, and Thess, I don't believe in a 'death penalty' and DO NOT advocate the persecution of ANYONE, ESPECALLY concerning God.

'MY way', in NOTHING more than what I have 'learned' and what I believe has been 'revealed' to me. NOTHING MORE. It is what I have come to accept and follow and I know what it has brought to my life. I would LOVE to see others experience the 'same' thing but that is up to the individual and all I can do is offer my testimony in the hopes that it will inspire others to seek the 'same'.

But I WILL not condemn others. I can't. It's not up to me to 'judge' the salvation of another and I won't attempt it. I know what I believe is the answer, but I will not attempt to condemn another for not following what I believe.

So, this is my confusion over 'people like me'. I stated before that from a Catholic perspective, I would probably be considered an Arian. I DO NOT follow the teachings of Arius and don't even fully know what they are. But I certainly believe that the Son of God IS the Son of God. And that there IS ONLY ONE GOD.

 

[Vic C.]

I wonder what fruit this discussion will bear?

Good point Klee. I wonder too; is self pity a form of fruit? Many here, including Mods and Admins, have been bashed severely. I could post and quote the many times I have been bashed pubically and privately, but most of it is unsuitable for reprint. : So, I let it go and give it up to God.

My Lord has very broad shoulders. 8-)

 

[DivineNames]

thessalonian, were you the person saying that the infallible pronouncements of the Catholic Church didn't contain any contradictions? If so, I came across a possible counter-example given in a Hans Küng article. I will quote if your interested.

Sure. Go ahead. I'm sure I've heard it. Kung is a confused individual but you can try.

"The traditional Catholic position  prepared in the early Christian centuries by Origen, Cyprian, and Augustine, and defined as far back as the Fourth Lateran Council (1215)  is widely known: "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus!" Outside the Church there is no salvation. Fifty years before the discovery of America the ecumenical council of Florence (1442) unequivocally stated, "The holy Roman Church ... firmly believes, confesses, and proclaims that no one outside the Catholic Church, neither heathen nor Jew nor unbeliever nor schismatic will have a share in eternal life, but rather is condemned to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, unless he joins it [the Catholic Church] before his death."

As early as the age of the discovery of new continents Catholic theology tried to come to a new understanding of that uncompromising "Outside the Church" doctrine, which meant for the most part to reinterpret it and, finally, to turn it inside out. It was never openly corrected because it was "infallible".

Once again without making any formal correction the Second Vatican Council finally declared, invoking God's all-embracing salvific will and plan of salvation in its Constitution on the Church (1964): "Those individuals, who for no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church, yet still search for God with an upright heart and try to fulfil his will, as recognized in the commands of conscience, in deeds prompted by the working of his grace, can attain eternal salvation" (article 16)."

Hans Küng, Is There One True Religion? An Essay in Establishing Ecumenical Criteria

 

[Imagican]

I wonder what fruit this discussion will bear?

Good point Klee. I wonder too; is self pity a form of fruit? Many here, including Mods and Admins, have been bashed severely. I could post and quote the many times I have been bashed pubically and privately, but most of it is unsuitable for reprint. : So, I let it go and give it up to God.

My Lord has very broad shoulders. 8-)

Vic,

There's absolutely NO reason that you or any other Mod should put up with ANY KIND of bashing, either public or private. So, don't don't let it happen.

I have simply tried to offer that 'trinity' is Catholic baggage and thus is only a 'man-made' doctrine that itself can bear no fruit. And, if what I offer is 'true', then to 'make' Jesus God is to go against the commandment FROM God and FROM Christ Himself that we are to worship ONLY ONE GOD. If this is the case then those that worship Christ AS God have bought into a 'false' religious system that worships something OTHER than God Himself.

Now, what consequences that individuals will have to deal with is something that I don't have the answer to. But, just as those that promote 'trinity' INSIST that I MUST follow it in order to be 'born again' or indeed a Christian, if what I offer is 'truth', then it probably works the same way in reverse. The difference is that we have been told by God and Christ that Christ IS the Son of God. What we haven't been told is that Christ IS God. I know that scripture can be twisted around to indicate much that it DOES NOT say. The churches have done a really really good job of this over the centuries and it seems even more prevelent NOW than ever. But the 'truth' IS the 'truth' regardless of what ANYONE 'decides' is 'their own' truth.

 

[Henry]

My two cents, is that the trinity is an essential doctrine of the faith and not to be compromised, the Jesus who is not the second person of the trinity is not the Jesus of the Bible and likewise not the Jesus savior.

Mormons have Jesus who is created and ONE of many sons, this is not the Jesus of the bible, but false Jesus and so Mormons are not truley Christians.

I feel that in these groups there are those who are and do get saved, but inspite of and never becuase of the teachings in that group.

So, as it hard for me to do I agree with thess the trinity is essential and any Jesus who is not part of the trinity is simply not the real deal

 

[Henry]

Thess

Jesus said "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" yet you catholics call people FATHER.

Did Jesus change his mind?

Oh and by the way this comes from a text where Jesus is listing other religous titles as well, so the term Father is a religious term.

 

[gingercat]

So, as it hard for me to do I agree with thess the trinity is essential and any Jesus who is not part of the trinity is simply not the real deal

Ok Henry, now you are not going to get much of my support any more

 

[Klee shay]

Hi Thess. :D

No yikes at all.
First of all scripture is the Word and Jesus is the Word made flesh, so scripture is Jesus teaching us. God is revealed in scripture. This is grace. Yet the grace of understanding is also required to understand the nature of God. Thus the Holy Spirit also is needed in order to believe the trinity.

I use to believe this myself. Why? Because men taught me to translate God according to this formula...not God Himself. Should I follow God or men? Who would you say I should follow?

God did not reveal the trinity to me - mankind did. They took the scriptures; said here is God and then used the Holy Spirit to verify this was the understanding of God which HE revealed to mankind. Is it really God though or just the power of suggestion to believe in an idol of God?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceive many." MATTHEW 24:4-5

Let no MAN deceive you Thess. The wise counsel in which you ponder my words pertaining to matters of the Lord IS your Holy Spirit, and I welcome it for it is of God. However, you should also ponder such wise counsel towards the men who teach you about God aslo. Do they welcome it however - do they welcome the things of God which could offend their understanding of God?

For even to the Rock (Peter), Jesus said he would build his church on, he also proclaimed: "...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." MATTHEW 16:23

There are also teachers sent by God and this is Jesus teaching us as well. "he who hears you hears me" "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and UNDERSTANDING". None of this is apart from Jesus teaching us. You are trying to trump me with your understanding of the passage and are not coming anywhere near close.

Blessings

Thess you use the Lord's words to defend your (man's) learning, and yet deny the Lord's warnings to keep his message pure. No man means no man because there would be no other Christ but Jesus.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it NOT. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. MATTHEW 24:23-24

"Any" man does not discriminate. Here is a clear warning from THE Christ that any man who points you towards Christ should not be believed. Yes, and this includes me for I am "any" man also. So where does this leave us - out in the cold - alone? No, for at the point of belief our faith is carried BY The Lord, not by men who are also subject to the same Spirit as we all are. For the Spirit is not above Jesus as Jesus is not above God; and likewise man is not above the Spirit, Jesus OR God.

But mankind only like to believe what we can see. Thomas knew this more than anyone after Jesus was raised from the dead....

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. MATTHEW 20 28-29

Unlike Thomas, the modern believer has not seen Jesus nor the authority in which he taught in the flesh and blood. We can read about it but because we haven't seen Jesus in the flesh and blood, we are tempted to only veiw Him as much as we're prepared to understand. This man-made understanding is not as he declares himself and his father in heaven.

For God is a god of the living not the dead...and Jesus was raised from the dead and therefore living.

If we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead then Jesus has the power to reveal God to those who seek the THINGS OF GOD. He cannot reveal it to those who seek after the things of men. For the Spirit, Jesus and God are not subject to the will of mankind. Rather if we do not see that we are subject to the Spirit, Jesus and God as they reveal it; then we will be guilty of idolising other God's.

The enemy cloaks himself as a sheep so that he will not be seen in the flock. Likewise the enemy cloaks himself as Christ, that if it were possible, would decieve the very elect. Do you know what they means? That means the Jesus persona the enemy wears to bring fourth false Christs; has the capability to decieve the VERY elect - if God allowed it. This is a convincing disguise which will lead mankind into false beliefs; and its not just in any other church but frankly in ANY man.

Yes, I am ANY man also. So do not believe my sentiments but rather search for the living God in His Son's words I declare before you.

"When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side." MATTHEW 13:19

We hear the word but comprehend it not; so the enemy sows new beliefs in our hearts which we call God. The ulimate decepetion.

I confess to having received my seed by the wayside as a Christian Gentile. Do you? :wink: