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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
The Trinity
- Thread starter electedbyHim
- Start date
Greetings again Johann,
Kind regards
Trevor
I apologise for my inappropriate comment. In retrospect mainly I was frustrated at our lack of progress in our discussion. I could have been in a bad mood as well.
I consider that we have both adequately stated our different perspectives on this important subject.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again Free,
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 26 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?
John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:56–58 (KJV -adjusted): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
Abraham, by means of the promises concerning the Messiah, and by the events of Genesis 22 looked forward to the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus, and foresaw this day of Jesus and was glad. The Pharisees did not endorse this, even if they understood his claim, but deliberately muddied the waters by deriding him, and asking if he was 2000 years old. Jesus answered that the promise of Messiah predated Abraham who had looked forward to Jesus and his day, as Jesus is also the Messiah who promised concerning the seed of Eve and that he was also the Messiah who was in the plan and purpose of God before creation.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Kind regards
Trevor
I find the more possibilities that you suggest, and in the process tying yourself with a number of ropes with knots that cannot be undone, the more I am convinced of the simple and clear meaning of Jesus' statement. For a start, it is part of the theme mentioned in the following and then continued on in the immediate context and circumstances of John 7 and 8.
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 26 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?
John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:56–58 (KJV -adjusted): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
Abraham, by means of the promises concerning the Messiah, and by the events of Genesis 22 looked forward to the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus, and foresaw this day of Jesus and was glad. The Pharisees did not endorse this, even if they understood his claim, but deliberately muddied the waters by deriding him, and asking if he was 2000 years old. Jesus answered that the promise of Messiah predated Abraham who had looked forward to Jesus and his day, as Jesus is also the Messiah who promised concerning the seed of Eve and that he was also the Messiah who was in the plan and purpose of God before creation.
The sad fact is that there are two different wordings in the different manuscripts. I can only conjecture that the ECF's who were astray and then the Apostate Trinitarian Church that followed preserved the one that supported the Trinity. As I asked Johann!@#, what manuscript did the faction of the early Ebionites who believed in the Virgin Birth possess? Many years ago I used to work with a Plymouth Brother who was an expert in the Greek text. The only portion of the Scripture that he mentioned to me that he rejected was John 7:53-John 8:1-8. Many years later I am convinced that this is a correct portion of John's Gospel and also placed in the correct position, even though many modern authorities reject this, or at least hold this passage in doubt and its location in doubt. This fairly neutral example makes me very skeptical about some of this "scholarship".
I do not ignore that passage. I have an alternative perspective of Philippians 2:6-8 that it speaks of the humble disposition of the mind of Jesus in his youth and in his ministry.
I was carefully trying to speak about the conception and exclude the concept of the incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God by birth, not the transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary. Mary has a large involvement in the whole process.
Zechariah 3 and Jude reveal that the Angel of Yahweh is Michael and that some scriptures grant him the nomenclature "Yahweh". I consider that Genesis 18 is a similar example.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Kind regards
Trevor
Last edited:
Johann!@#
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No need to apologize, we all have our "moody" days in intense moments of fellowship.
J.
- Jul 13, 2012
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When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2
Who do you believe appeared to Abraham, and made covenant with him?
Greetngs again JLB,
Kind regards
Trevor
The Angel of Yahweh who spoke and acted on behalf of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. This is similar to what I posted above concerning the Angel of Yahweh being called Yahweh in Zechariah 3 and also Exodus 23:20-21. Yahweh Himself was in heaven.
Kind regards
Trevor
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Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
The Angel of the LORD is Jesus the Son of God before He became flesh.
Do you agree?
I have to admit that I am often amazed at those who claim Jesus was NOT God. There have already been MANY scriptures shared (and the Bible is full of them) that prove Jesus was God. But to me, this is the simplest:
"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD". (John 1:1)
"And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we beheld his Glory, as the only begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth" (John 1:14)
Yes---the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a couple of others try to manipulate and twist John 1:1. The JW's twist it so badly that they have "the Word was A god" in an effort to remove the divinity of Christ. It is blasphemous and very dishonest to say the least. The Word of God definitely reveals that Jesus was God in the flesh. How anyone can miss that or try to get around it boggles my mind.
"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD". (John 1:1)
"And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we beheld his Glory, as the only begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth" (John 1:14)
Yes---the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a couple of others try to manipulate and twist John 1:1. The JW's twist it so badly that they have "the Word was A god" in an effort to remove the divinity of Christ. It is blasphemous and very dishonest to say the least. The Word of God definitely reveals that Jesus was God in the flesh. How anyone can miss that or try to get around it boggles my mind.
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You seem to have misunderstood. There is only one possibility--that Jesus was claiming timeless existence. My argument to other possibilities is to your position. I agree that Jesus's statement was simple and clear, which is precisely why it cannot be your understanding of the statement, since it makes Jesus say nonsense.
And all this is part of the context of John 1:1-18, where John unequivocally states that the Son is the Word who has existed for all eternity in interpersonal relationship with God, is God in nature, and was involved in the creation of everything that was ever created by God.
Part of the context is also the rest of the book of John, where Jesus repeatedly states that he came from heaven; where John the Baptist states that Jesus was before him, even though John was born first; where John the apostle says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus, when Isaiah says he saw the glory of Yahweh; where Jesus accepted worship from his disciples; where Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and his God; etc.
Ignoring context and proof-texting are the main anti-Trinitarian tactics, as is consistently ignoring the hardest passages and arguments. It makes me sad, actually, since it is an active attempt to not fully understand.
As I have stated several times before, John 8:24 and 28 grammatically allow for "I am he," but verse 24 can also allow for simply "I am." It is also the case that you're ignoring the context of verse 23: "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" (ESV).
And, as I have repeatedly pointed out, "I am he" simply makes no grammatical sense or contextual sense in light of the question in verse 57. You simply want verse 58 to say "he," nothing more, and so are ramming it in there despite it making Jesus say nonsense.
No. The Jews didn't ask about the promise of the Messiah in verse 57; they very clearly asked about Jesus's age. It doesn't matter that they "muddied the waters by deriding him," Jesus directly answered their question. His answer is very clearly that Abraham's past existence was temporary, but he has always existed.
Yes, but ultimately there is no difference in meaning, since monogenes does not mean "begetting" or "procreation." It means "unique" or "only" or "one and only."
This shows that you don't seem to know how the whole process of copying worked, as it would have been impossible to simply preserve one reading over another.
And, yet, you aren't a scholar. The best position for us laypersons is generally either on the side of what the consensus is or remain agnostic and hold the different positions in tension. That's not to say we can't choose a side, but we had better understand the issues thoroughly and be able to provide solid reasons to justify our position.
Yes, that is what the passage is about, I have said so myself--it is the greatest example of humility that could ever be conceived--but you're ignoring the actual words it uses to do so. Those words unequivocally show that the Son is eternal, being God in nature, but took on human flesh, which is exactly why it is the greatest example of humility.
Jesus is the Son of God by nature, not birth. That is what the NT consistently affirms.
He is an angel and if a given text doesn't specify, we should never assume. Take a text in what it plainly states, and what we see in Gen. 18 is that Yahweh appeared with two angels in the form of men. Then we are very clearly told that there was also a Yahweh in heaven. There is no need to go beyond that and say one was an angel, never mind Michael, when the text doesn't even hint at it. You need to stop putting your theology ahead of Scripture, as it leads you to read things into the text and so change what is often plainly stated.
But, here we are told that that is the case. We can't use passages like this to just read into other passages whenever it suits our position.
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I remember those days . Honestly only God can reveal His Nature to us the Trinity is hard to grasp but it's biblical.
I'm not against defense of the Trinity just won't battle ad nauseum with those that aren't trinitarian.
Johann!@#
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The Trinity: Easy As 1, 2, 3?
Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...
www.oneforisrael.org
One of the hardest things for Jewish people to deal with when it comes to Yeshua is the idea that he could be God in human form. The trinity just sounds like straight up polytheistic idol worship to Jewish ears.
Monotheism was the defining difference between the faith of Abraham and all the pagan worshipers surrounding him in the Mesopotamian basin. Every Jewish person knows that their God is one, and squirms inside when they see a church cluttered with images that seem like idols – the holy child in the arms of Mary, Yeshua on the cross… it might be like a believer going into a place of worship with star signs of the Zodiac all over the walls.
Jewish resistance to the trinity comes from the knowledge that the God of Israel is a jealous God, and that they must never bow the knee to any other. So how can we be so sure that the appearance of Yeshua and teaching of the trinity does not contradict the Torah’s insistence that only God should be worshiped?
DOES EXPLAINING THE TRINITY TIE YOU IN KNOTS?
An English preacher called David Pawson rightly noticed that we often feel awkward and embarrassed about the inexplicable trinity. How can God be three and one at the same time? “We don’t know!” We have to admit. There are metaphors of clover leaves having three parts to the one leaf… of water, ice and steam all being H2O… of the ability to be a mother, daughter and wife simultaneously, but none of these analogies really do justice to the mysterious Godhead we claim to know and love.
But, insists Pawson, the trinity is one of the greatest truths we have to share, because we alone, of all faiths, can declare the truth that God IS love!
In order to love, we need an object of affection, but since God is Father, Son and Spirit, he was already living in loving unity long before he created the world! In himself, God’s very essence is love with no need of outside intervention.
We could say that a singular God could be loving in nature, but to say that he IS love is a unique privilege of those who believe that he can give and receive love in and of himself.
THEY’RE ALL THERE, THE ENTIRE TIME, ALL THROUGH THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES
The word “trinity” cannot be found in the Bible, but the truth is that the three of them have been there together all the way along.
Genesis tells us that God created the heavens and the earth by his word. John 1 tells us that the Word is Yeshua – that he was with God and was God from the get go, right there at creation. We also see the third person of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, hovering over the waters in the second verse of the Bible. Not sure about this? The first words of the Bible in Hebrew are בראשית ברא אלוהים – In the beginning, God created (or “in the beginning, created God…”, because that’s the way Hebrew sentences are structured). The word for God is Elohim. This word Elohim, very interestingly, is plural. Still not convinced? The decision to create humanity is made. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”, says the plural God, in plural.
Later on we see hints of Yeshua appearing as “The Angel of the Lord”, which could simply be one of God’s many angels, except that those who encounter this one a) identify him as The Lord himself, and b) worship him.
There is no way that an angel of God – even a top level angel – would accept worship that belongs to God alone.
If you want to see what I mean, see what happens when “The Angel of the Lord” turns up to visit Hagar in Genesis 16 and 21, Abraham in chapter 18, and the One who stops him killing Isaac in 22:11, look at the interaction between Samson’s parents and the Angel of the Lord in Judges 13, and consider who the fourth person was in the fiery furnace that Daniel’s three friends were rescued from. As you ponder the texts and the dialogues, look carefully at the way people address this angel, at the way he refers to himself, and you will see that there is something divine going on here.
This angel speaks as if he is God, and people speak as if they have encountered God.
Because he is. And they have.
We also learn of the third person, the Holy Spirit, very much active in his own right in the Tenach – falling upon and anointing people with power to prophesy and act to accomplish God’s will. He empowers the artisans who make the tabernacle, falls upon Saul in 1 Samuel 10, and is spoken of by David in the Psalms and the prophets (“The Spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon me, for he has anointed me…” Isaiah 61). He appears many times throughout the scriptures, helping and enabling people to do the will of God.
We even see all three of them together in this verse:
“Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this:
From the beginning I have not spoken in secret;
from the time that it was, there am I;
and now the Lord GOD has sent me, and His Spirit.”
(Isaiah 48:16)
There they all are – all three of them together. The Lord God (Father), the One who he sent, who was with him from the beginning (Yeshua) and His Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament.
God repeatedly promises that he would come and live among them, in words that bewilder the mind if you are not ready to accept the deity of Yeshua. He says,
“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord.
And many nations shall join themselves to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people.
And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you.” (Zechariah 2:10-11)
Yes, it was always God’s intention to come and live among us as Yeshua. And you can see the sameness yet separateness in these verses – he speaks as God himself, yet tells us that the Lord of Hosts has sent him.
We also see the God’s Son mentioned several times in the Tenach (Jewish Scriptures):
Psalm 2:2 –
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4 –
Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name?
Surely you know!
Daniel 7:13 –
and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
INCOMPREHENSIBLE, BUT TRUE
So although this idea seems alien to most Jewish people (and frankly, rather bewildering to most believers) a careful study of the Scriptures shows us that Yeshua did not suddenly appear two thousand years ago. As he says of himself; “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).
Shalom
J.
- Mar 11, 2014
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I was a Jehovah's witness for a number of yearsThe Trinity: Easy As 1, 2, 3?
Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...
One of the hardest things for Jewish people to deal with when it comes to Yeshua is the idea that he could be God in human form. The trinity just sounds like straight up polytheistic idol worship to Jewish ears.
Monotheism was the defining difference between the faith of Abraham and all the pagan worshipers surrounding him in the Mesopotamian basin. Every Jewish person knows that their God is one, and squirms inside when they see a church cluttered with images that seem like idols – the holy child in the arms of Mary, Yeshua on the cross… it might be like a believer going into a place of worship with star signs of the Zodiac all over the walls.
Jewish resistance to the trinity comes from the knowledge that the God of Israel is a jealous God, and that they must never bow the knee to any other. So how can we be so sure that the appearance of Yeshua and teaching of the trinity does not contradict the Torah’s insistence that only God should be worshiped?
DOES EXPLAINING THE TRINITY TIE YOU IN KNOTS?
An English preacher called David Pawson rightly noticed that we often feel awkward and embarrassed about the inexplicable trinity. How can God be three and one at the same time? “We don’t know!” We have to admit. There are metaphors of clover leaves having three parts to the one leaf… of water, ice and steam all being H2O… of the ability to be a mother, daughter and wife simultaneously, but none of these analogies really do justice to the mysterious Godhead we claim to know and love.
But, insists Pawson, the trinity is one of the greatest truths we have to share, because we alone, of all faiths, can declare the truth that God IS love!
In order to love, we need an object of affection, but since God is Father, Son and Spirit, he was already living in loving unity long before he created the world! In himself, God’s very essence is love with no need of outside intervention.
We could say that a singular God could be loving in nature, but to say that he IS love is a unique privilege of those who believe that he can give and receive love in and of himself.
THEY’RE ALL THERE, THE ENTIRE TIME, ALL THROUGH THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES
The word “trinity” cannot be found in the Bible, but the truth is that the three of them have been there together all the way along.
Genesis tells us that God created the heavens and the earth by his word. John 1 tells us that the Word is Yeshua – that he was with God and was God from the get go, right there at creation. We also see the third person of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, hovering over the waters in the second verse of the Bible. Not sure about this? The first words of the Bible in Hebrew are בראשית ברא אלוהים – In the beginning, God created (or “in the beginning, created God…”, because that’s the way Hebrew sentences are structured). The word for God is Elohim. This word Elohim, very interestingly, is plural. Still not convinced? The decision to create humanity is made. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”, says the plural God, in plural.
Later on we see hints of Yeshua appearing as “The Angel of the Lord”, which could simply be one of God’s many angels, except that those who encounter this one a) identify him as The Lord himself, and b) worship him.
There is no way that an angel of God – even a top level angel – would accept worship that belongs to God alone.
If you want to see what I mean, see what happens when “The Angel of the Lord” turns up to visit Hagar in Genesis 16 and 21, Abraham in chapter 18, and the One who stops him killing Isaac in 22:11, look at the interaction between Samson’s parents and the Angel of the Lord in Judges 13, and consider who the fourth person was in the fiery furnace that Daniel’s three friends were rescued from. As you ponder the texts and the dialogues, look carefully at the way people address this angel, at the way he refers to himself, and you will see that there is something divine going on here.
This angel speaks as if he is God, and people speak as if they have encountered God.
Because he is. And they have.
We also learn of the third person, the Holy Spirit, very much active in his own right in the Tenach – falling upon and anointing people with power to prophesy and act to accomplish God’s will. He empowers the artisans who make the tabernacle, falls upon Saul in 1 Samuel 10, and is spoken of by David in the Psalms and the prophets (“The Spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon me, for he has anointed me…” Isaiah 61). He appears many times throughout the scriptures, helping and enabling people to do the will of God.
We even see all three of them together in this verse:
“Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this:
From the beginning I have not spoken in secret;
from the time that it was, there am I;
and now the Lord GOD has sent me, and His Spirit.”
(Isaiah 48:16)
There they all are – all three of them together. The Lord God (Father), the One who he sent, who was with him from the beginning (Yeshua) and His Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament.
God repeatedly promises that he would come and live among them, in words that bewilder the mind if you are not ready to accept the deity of Yeshua. He says,
“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord.
And many nations shall join themselves to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people.
And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you.” (Zechariah 2:10-11)
Yes, it was always God’s intention to come and live among us as Yeshua. And you can see the sameness yet separateness in these verses – he speaks as God himself, yet tells us that the Lord of Hosts has sent him.
We also see the God’s Son mentioned several times in the Tenach (Jewish Scriptures):
Psalm 2:2 –
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4 –
Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name?
Surely you know!
Daniel 7:13 –
and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
INCOMPREHENSIBLE, BUT TRUE
So although this idea seems alien to most Jewish people (and frankly, rather bewildering to most believers) a careful study of the Scriptures shows us that Yeshua did not suddenly appear two thousand years ago. As he says of himself; “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).
Shalom
J.
Johann!@#
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I left that cult oh about thirty plus years ago
Jason-
Agreed. The arguments are endless. I always remember this one time I was standing at the front door arguing (discussing, lol) the Trinity with a Jehovah's Witness, and something made me look up. Above me was a ceiling fan with three blades rotating in the heat. The JW had been arguing that I was claiming there were (3) "Gods". I said "Look up there. Do you say 'look at those fans?' No---we say 'look at that fan'. It is one device with three blades, co-equal, making up ONE fan. It is impossible to define the Trinity, but maybe that example can help show you what Christians believe. We believe in ONE GOD, made up of three equal and eternal persons".
I still don't know if that helped him at all. lol. But he did grow very quiet before leaving some literature and walking away. But I have to agree with you---arguing about the Trinity ad-nauseum is not productive. All the best!
Greetngs again JLB, Fish153, Free and Johann,
Kind regards
Trevor
No, the Angel of the LORD is an angel, possibly Michael the Archangel here.
I do not agree with the JW translation or their exposition here. I consider The Word in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.
None of your numerous suggestions matched my perspective. Jesus was greater than Abraham because Jesus was the seed of promise and the central focus of Abraham's salvation as depicted in Genesis 22, events that were being outworked then, in Jesus' day, during his ministry. He was also before Abraham as he was also the seed of the woman of Genesis 3:15 and he was in the plan and purpose of God before the creation.
I recently encountered comments on the thesis of Walter Bauer concerning his book Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity.
Yes, I have chosen a side.
Luke 1:34-35 teaches me that he is the Son of God by birth, not incarnation of God the Son.
Our major pioneer was called upon by a Jewish Trinitarian to address a crowd of Jews in New York in 1858 and the Trinitarian Jew was very upset when our pioneer expounded the subject that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father, He who will be. The substance of his address is now published as one of our foundation literature on this subject.
Rather, "I am he".
Kind regards
Trevor
Johann!@#
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Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
- the Angel of the LORD appeared to him
- Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
- And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:13-14
- Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
Greetings again JLB,
Kind regards
Trevor
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.
Kind regards
Trevor
- Jul 13, 2012
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Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6
- the Angel of the LORD appeared to him
- Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
- And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
The scriptures teach us Moses was looking at God.
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