I too believe their was a time Jesus was not. As firstborn I believe Jesus has a beginning but no ending as Jesus stated He lives by the living Father and we live because of Him.
But that is not what Scripture shows. Scripture shows that Jesus has indeed always existed, just as the Father has.
Randy said:
I do not see a beginning for God the Father in scripture. He was and is God. I do not see God the Father calling anyone His God. In fact we read "No God was formed before Him) and (no God will be formed after Him). I do not see God the Father subject to anyones will.
On this we agree.
Randy said:
Jesus openly taught the Father was His God and Father. Jesus taught He remained in the Fathers Love by obeying the Fathers commands. Now we are talking about one who was stated as always was and always was God. Doesn't make sense with that premise.
Here you are confusing the ontological and economic ideas of the Trinity. Phillipians 2:5-8 is key to understanding this, which is what John 1:1-3, 14 is speaking about--the Incarnation.
Randy said:
I read Paul's "Firstborn of all creation" as just that. Jesus was and is the God's Firstborn.
But that is to pick one definition of "firstborn," one that contradicts other passages speaking of Jesus' nature, when there is another legitimate definition.
Randy said:
Jesus was the Him in "The Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him." Jesus taught the Father was in Him. The fullness wasn't born or created it was given as I see by the One Jesus calls His God and Father. Jesus was found worthy of Glory, Honor, and power from what we read in the Book of rev for what He did for God. Purchased us by His blood. God was found worthy because He is God and all things were created by His command and power.
I also asked the same question as the person who started this thread but to Jesus. The church can't explain the trinity other then 'mystery' yet its seems to be a taboo subject when people question the reasoning. As we start with One true God and that per Jesus is the Father. Its my understanding the works of Arius were destroyed (something my "Lord" Jesus would not have condoned or ordered) But the source of my understanding is the NT not Arius (and I also have the Spirit of Christ in me) I put a lot of weight on the Lords own words in His relation to the Father. I can state in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit but I note the word Son.
Jesus read and verified it was about Him in His hometown synagogue "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me.." In scripture we read "I shall put my Spirit upon Him and He will proclaim justice to the nations... Its clear to me the Holy Spirit is spoken as being the Fathers Spirit to give. From what I read what Jesus does is within the Fathers framework (Will). Jesus can't go off and create or do His own thing as a God who always was could.
Therefore only in the context that the Holy Spirit represents Christ in me do I state "Spirit of Christ" There is only One Spirit.
Jesus gave us the gift the Father gave Him. The Father in Him and Jesus in us.
John 17
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
So I state it pleased the Father that His fullness dwell in His Firstborn. That a Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed. They are one from the moment Jesus "was" which was sometime before all creation excluding Jesus's beginning. The fullness given has no beginning from what we read about the Father.
The Father also testified that He is Jesus's God and He set Jesus above all.
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.â€[e]
Again, much of this confuses the ontological and economic trinities.
Randy said:
Paul writes,
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods†and many “lordsâ€), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
This is a good passage and one that anti-trinitarians often use, but in so doing, they are completely ignoring the context, as you have done.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
It's amazing that so many get fixated on "one God, the Father" and "one Lord, Jesus Christ," yet ignore not only the logical conclusion of using that argument, but completely ignore all the words in the immediate context.
Firstly, if this verse is used as a statement regarding the nature of God and we say that the Father alone is the one God, excluding Jesus from being God, then the only logical conclusion is that we must exclude the Father from being Lord, always. There is no way around that. But clearly that is not what Scripture teaches.
Secondly, if the statement "there is one God, the Father,
from whom are all things," speaks of the eternal existence of the Father, then "one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom are all things," speaks of the eternal existence of Jesus.
This is in complete agreement with John 1:1-3 and Col 1:15-16:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He
was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
First are the obvious statements made in verse 1--the Word both "was with God" and "was God". Second is the use of "was" in verse 2. The Greek word behind it,
en, speaks to eternal preexistence as it means that "in the beginning," the Word was already in existence with God.
Third, it is clear that "all things" were made through the Word. This precludes the Word having been made and is supported by the statement that follows, "without him was not anything made that was made." If the Word was made, that is, if there was a point in time when he did not exist, then that statement is false. The
only conclusion is that the Word was not made and has always existed.
It is important to note that verses 2 and 3 support what is said in verse 1--that the Word was God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For
by him all things were created,
in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—
all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And
he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Again, this supports what has been said already, that Jesus has, in some way, always existed. Here "firstborn"
cannot literally mean "born" as that would then contradict what is stated in verses 16 and 17. The other meaning of "firstborn" as used in Scripture is that of "preeminence," and that clearly fits well with what is being said.
Randy said:
Hebrews
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Of course, one must understand the definitions of "firstborn" and not just assume that it means "one who was born." But what else does Hebrews say?
Heb 1:8
But of the Son he says, "
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (ESV)
First it is interesting to note that we have the Father calling the Son, God. Second is a quote from Psalm 102:
Psa 102:16 For
the LORD builds up Zion;
he appears in his glory;
Psa 102:17
he regards the prayer of the destitute and does not despise their prayer.
Psa 102:18 Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise
the LORD:
Psa 102:19 that
he looked down from
his holy height; from heaven
the LORD looked at the earth,
Psa 102:20 to hear the groans of the prisoners, to set free those who were doomed to die,
Psa 102:21 that they may declare in Zion the name of
the LORD, and in Jerusalem
his praise,
Psa 102:22 when peoples gather together, and kingdoms, to worship
the LORD.
Psa 102:23
He has broken my strength in midcourse;
he has shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 "O
my God," I say, "take me not away in the midst of my days—
you whose years endure throughout all generations!"
Psa 102:25 Of old
you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of
your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but
you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but
you are the same, and
your years have no end. (ESV)
Once again we have the Father saying something of the Son. But what we have here is an OT passage the
clearly is speaking of the LORD, Yahweh, and yet the Father is saying this of the Son.
A mystery? How can it not be?
Randy said:
So I answer "Is Jesus God?" and I have been a Christian longer then I care to admit (white hairs)
Yes - He is all that the Father is.
No - He has always been the Son
Jesus never dies as He lives by the Living Father.
The Bible shows that Jesus is in nature God. He has always existed. He is not, however, the Father, and yet there is only one God. This truly is a mystery.
totopic