The Trinity

[Robert Hern]

The Word was God
Jesus became the incarnated Word from heaven, made lower than the angels
Are you made lower than the angels?
Jesus said I can do nothing unless the Father tells me
if the Father was not there to tell Him what would He do

 

[icee]

The Word was God
Jesus became the incarnated Word from heaven, made lower than the angels
Are you made lower than the angels?
Jesus said I can do nothing unless the Father tells me
if the Father was not there to tell Him what would He do

Jesus didn't become the Word...Jesus is the Word.

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[Robert Hern]

yes thats exactly right

He is the Word

 

[Fred Marsh]

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. [/FONT][/QUOTE]

There is more to consider when we attempt to dispel the confusion in regard to the Trinity. Consider, if we did not have the New Testament could we know that God manifests Himself as a Trinity? The Trinity is in the Old Testament but not as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." There is good reason to think that the Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament is the Second Person of the Trinity. In other words, the identity of the Second Person of the Trinity is something other than "Jesus."

Now when we consider John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word (the Second Person of the Trinity - deity), and the Word was with God (the First Person of the Trinity - deity), and the Word was God (The Second Person of the Trinity is Himself deity - but not another deity - the same diety).

John 1:1 is making plain what has always been true - that the one God (Creator) manifests Himself to His creation through the interaction of the three Persons of the Trinity.

 

[Fred Marsh]

Hi Fred,

In what sense do you mean co-equal or do you mean every sense?

I am not sure exactly what your are asking. In the Declaration of Independence Jeferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal .... " To say that all men are created equal does not mean that they are all the same or that they even have equal talents. It only describes their equality under the law. This is to say that each individual man ought to be equal under the law. The three Persons of the Trinity are "co-equal, and co-eternal" in this sense. There are not levels to God.

 

[Fred Marsh]

Exactly as I wrote. Jesus has always been the Son.
Randy

This, of course, is a doctrine (a teaching). I am wondering whether you know where it comes from? We do not find the Son in the Old Testament except as prophesy obout a future event. Eternal Sonship actually comes from Origen. He was having a problem with the second Psalm - specifically "You are my son, this day I have begotten you." Reading this it sounds as if the Son has a beginning, "this day I have begotten you." Origen was one of the first to attempt to work out a docrine (a teaching). If the three Persons of the Trinity are co-equal, and co-eternal, how then can the Son have a beginng? This is what Origen was struggling. His solution was to interpret the second Psalm passage "this day I have begotten you" as not meaning a point in time, but as the fundamental relationship between the Father and the Son. The Father is always "begetting the Son."

I do not think that this was the correct way to deal with the problem that Origen was trying to deal with. The Second Person of the Trinity was not "the Son" in the Old Testament. He became "the Son" in the New Testament. I realize that my position is not orthodoxy but i believe that mine best fits scritpture.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 1 says: 'Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

The Lord Jesus is not anyone less than eternal God Himself.

 

[Fred Marsh]

You're saying that Jesus was not always the Son? Then who was he? And if the Father has always existed, it necessarily follows that the Son has as well, or else he couldn't be said to be a Father.

Jesus has always been the Son, but the Second Person of the Trinity has not always been Jesus. In the Old Testament we do not find "the Son" acting within the creation and Jesus has not been born. Yet the Second Person of the Trinity is thought to be at work in the Angel of the LORD.

 

[farouk]

John 1: 'without Him was not anything made that was made'.

 

[Asyncritus]

I have asked this question many times on the board and have received no answer worthy of the name as yet.

Perhaps things may be better this time round.

The question is:

If Jesus, as the 2nd person of the trinity, existed from before the year dot, then He must have been as a spirit. Agreed? Agreed.

We have the angel Gabriel no less, who stands in the presence of God, coming to Mary and saying:

Lk 1.31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Isa 7.14 agrees with this:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

So does Matthew:
1.23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel”
(which means, God with us). ESV

I particularly call your attention to the word CONCEIVE.

Nowadays, the medics can transplant/ implant/... a fertilised ovum (a zygote) into a surrogate mother's womb, who carries it to full term and the child is born.

By no stretch of the imagination can the child be called the son of the surrogate mother.

Equally, by no stretch of language can the surrogate mother be said to have CONCEIVED the child.

Yet here is Luke, a medic, who knew the difference between CONCEPTION and ENGRAFTING, declaring that Mary CONCEIVED Jesus.

Jesus, therefore, could not have existed prior to His conception and birth. Otherwise, an implantation or some other such term would have had to be used.

Gabriel knew exactly what God had said to him and conveyed the message precisely; the plan was executed by the Holy Spirit, the power of God, and the CONCEPTION took place.

Several important consequences follow.

1 Jesus did not exist prior to His birth.

2 Therefore John 1:1 requires re-interpretation. The 'beginning' there could not be the beginning of Gen 1.1 An allusion is undoubtedly being made by John, but an allusion is exactly that : an allusion, not a restatement of the facts.

3 Mary clearly understood exactly what Gabriel was saying, and shows this in her response:

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Gabriel elucidates, precisely as we would expect, and as Mary would understand very easily - in the manner described above.

Those are the exact facts of the case - and any understanding of the trinity must take account of them

 

[Asyncritus]

Hebrews 1 says: 'Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'.

The Lord Jesus is not anyone less than eternal God Himself.

How can the Eternal God be saying to the Eternal God that His throne is forever and ever?

 

[Asyncritus]

John 1: 'without Him was not anything made that was made'.

Note the allusions to this statement in the following passage:

Eph 2.11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ [= without him in Jn 1], being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Seems pretty clear that the 'all things' refers to Chriist's disciples, both Jews and Gentiles.

In the context of John 1, there is no reference to the physical creation: mountains, rivers, horses, aardvarks etc etc.

No, the focus is on the creation of spiritual light out of spiritual darkness, and on the creation of the spiritual sons of God, who were spiritually born, not of the natural will of man, but spiritually of God.

 

[farouk]

How can the Eternal God be saying to the Eternal God that His throne is forever and ever?

Look, this is what it says. I don't try to pick holes in it.

 

[Butch5]

You're saying that Jesus was not always the Son? Then who was he? And if the Father has always existed, it necessarily follows that the Son has as well, or else he couldn't be said to be a Father.

He couldn't have always been the Son, Jesus said He came out of God. In Pslam 2 David prophesies the words of Jesus.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psa 2:7 KJV)

The first Christians called Jesus the begotten God. In Psalm 2 David gives God's words saying "this day" He had begotten the Son.

That's why I think the fire analogy gives one of the best explanation of how this works. We refer to the Father and Son, I believe this is because Jesus was begotten before the world existed so there would be no time that anyone would refer to Him other than the Father.

 

[Butch5]

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. [/FONT]

There is more to consider when we attempt to dispel the confusion in regard to the Trinity. Consider, if we did not have the New Testament could we know that God manifests Himself as a Trinity? The Trinity is in the Old Testament but not as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." There is good reason to think that the Angel of the LORD in the Old Testament is the Second Person of the Trinity. In other words, the identity of the Second Person of the Trinity is something other than "Jesus."

Now when we consider John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word (the Second Person of the Trinity - deity), and the Word was with God (the First Person of the Trinity - deity), and the Word was God (The Second Person of the Trinity is Himself deity - but not another deity - the same diety).

John 1:1 is making plain what has always been true - that the one God (Creator) manifests Himself to His creation through the interaction of the three Persons of the Trinity.

Isn't this oneness?

 

[Butch5]

I am not sure exactly what your are asking. In the Declaration of Independence Jeferson wrote: "We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal .... " To say that all men are created equal does not mean that they are all the same or that they even have equal talents. It only describes their equality under the law. This is to say that each individual man ought to be equal under the law. The three Persons of the Trinity are "co-equal, and co-eternal" in this sense. There are not levels to God.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say they are co-equal. They were not under Law so I don't think that fits this question.

 

[farouk]

All three Persons are God. John chapters 13 to 17 especially refer to all three Persons, as does John's First Epistle, the end of Matthew 28, etc.

 

[Free]

He couldn't have always been the Son, Jesus said He came out of God. In Pslam 2 David prophesies the words of Jesus.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psa 2:7 KJV)

The first Christians called Jesus the begotten God. In Psalm 2 David gives God's words saying "this day" He had begotten the Son.

That's why I think the fire analogy gives one of the best explanation of how this works. We refer to the Father and Son, I believe this is because Jesus was begotten before the world existed so there would be no time that anyone would refer to Him other than the Father.

Then who or what was he before he was the Son?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Free,

Then who or what was he before he was the Son?

Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."


Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?

Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."

Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.


Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning. To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.

 

[icee]

Before He was the Son, He was not yet created. What was the very beginning of the Father's creation?

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."


Christ is "the beginning of God's creation." Why was Christ the first thing God created?

Colossians 1:15 "He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him [Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created by Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell."

Christ was to be The Father's instrument for all the rest of His creation.


Nowhere in all of scripture, does Christ ever claim to be without a beginning. To the contrary He confesses that He is the beginning of God's creation, that His Father is greater than He, and that His Father is His God:

Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

2 Corinthians 11:31 "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not."

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


God the Father created Christ to be the channel for His creation.

Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God...making him God by default...not the one of many created by God...making him a creature as one of us and hardly unique.

He was begotten...and the only one begotten by the Father. Everyone else was created and through adoption are called sons of God. Jesus...before the creation of the world...has been the biological Son of the Father. This is the claim of Jesus and the very reason He was crucified by the Jews.

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