The Trinity

[Free]

Time will tell sir, I appreciate the length you went to show evidence, but we disagree and perhaps others will learn from it, but it fell on deaf ears to me.

Why deaf ears? Why not address the evidence? Grammar, word definitions, and context matter, and it all must make sense of the whole revelation of who God amd Jesus are. What John write is very specific and it lines up perfectly with what Paul says and even what Jesus says about himself (claiming to be the I Am on at least two occasions and claiming to be the Son of God).

It is the continual ignoring of such evidence and taking things out of context that is the problem for JWs and all other anti-Trinitarians. The Watchtower purposely changed the meaning of Col 1:16, where the NWT inserts “other” when that isn’t in the Greek text. Not only does that make the verse say something it doesn’t say, that makes it contradict John 1:3, John 8:24, 58, and 1 Cor 8:6.

Teachings are the primary identifying fruit of Christians Free.

I agree. And who Jesus is and who God is are absolutely central to Christianity and salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Exactly! Jehovah is the Father, Jesus is the anointed one. Who anointed Jesus sir?

You missed the point; which was that the Father is the one Lord and Jesus is the one Lord.

Therefore, they are the same Lord (in a sense, the same Person).

 

[gordon777]

The devils believe there is one God, vain man wont stop t be old, the thread on oneness is the same as if the devils are discussing it.


James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




What the devils don't do, is to stop contention, or do anything that is the righteousness of God. ( they never can cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord instead.)



Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Highway54]

Actually, Jesus received the Spirit in John 1:32, and from there on He baptized with the Holy Ghost, those who would believe on Him. Him receiving the Spirit in the form of a dove was for us to see what He was going to do to everyone who believed on Him; because He and the Spirit have always been one with the Father since eternity-past.

When it says "having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear." This is in reference to Jesus baptizing believers with the Spirit (Act 2:33); John Gill: "which the Father had promised to pour forth in the last days, (Isaiah 44:3), and which Christ had promised to send from the Father" (Jhn 15:26).

Yes Jesus was the first of the firstfruits and received his baptism from God's holy spirit in Jn 1:32, however it was not until he returned to heaven and presented his sacrifice before God that he was given full authority of holy spirit. Were you aware that every single live soul is kept alive by God's ruach sir? A degree of holy spirit is in each one of us whether we are God's people or not. Ps 146:4. None of us, not even the rest of the firstfruits that are still alive have full usage of the holy spirit, none of them can cure diseases or infirmities, nor resurrect the dead.

 

[Highway54]

Why deaf ears? Why not address the evidence? Grammar, word definitions, and context matter, and it all must make sense of the whole revelation of who God amd Jesus are. What John write is very specific and it lines up perfectly with what Paul says and even what Jesus says about himself (claiming to be the I Am on at least two occasions and claiming to be the Son of God).

It is the continual ignoring of such evidence and taking things out of context that is the problem for JWs and all other anti-Trinitarians. The Watchtower purposely changed the meaning of Col 1:16, where the NWT inserts “other” when that isn’t in the Greek text. Not only does that make the verse say something it doesn’t say, that makes it contradict John 1:3, John 8:24, 58, and 1 Cor 8:6.


I agree. And who Jesus is and who God is are absolutely central to Christianity and salvation.

I have studied it heavily Free, I would be more than happy to discuss your evidence if you are willing. I will not reply to a bombarding of passages, but if you want to post a couple to support your view, I would be happy to address them.

You gave an example of Col 1:16 saying that we changed the meaning. We believe that in four places in the Bible plus additional information shows Jesus to be the first creation of God. This is either true or false, so in your belief, and in ours as well, Jesus did not create himself, so in harmony with verse 15, other was added to clarify that Jesus did not create himself, something you in fact agree with. Every single Bible version adds words, every one! You are taking exception to the way the NWT renders Col 1:16 even though you agree with it, because it actually contradicts your understanding of how Jesus came to be, and most likely your position about the trinity doctrine.

Reasoning on the Scriptures is the best way for an honest heart to come to know God, I hope you take me up on my offer Free.

 

[netchaplain]

A degree of holy spirit is in each one of us whether we are God's people or not. Ps 146:4.

Only Christians have the Spirit. Unbelievers perish without Him and the Lord Jesus, which will be the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14).

Ps 146:4 is in reference to a man's breath, which is always limited because it eventually ceases.

John Gill: "His breath goeth forth,...." That is, the breath of a son of man, of any and everyone of the princes; it goes forth continually, and is drawn in again as long as a man lives; but at death it goes forth, and returns no more till the resurrection: the breath which the Lord breathed into man, and which is in his nostrils while he lives, and is very precarious. And when it is taken away, he dies.

"He returneth to his earth;" from whence he was taken, and of which he was made; upon which he lived, where he dwelt, and in which he took delight and pleasure, minding earth and earthly things, and which is now all he has; who, though he may have had many large estates and possessions, nay, have ruled over many kingdoms and countries, yet his property of earth is now no more than the length and breadth of a grave; he returns to earth as soon as he dies, becoming a lump of clay; and particularly when he is interred in it, and when by corruption and worms he is turned into it.

"In that very day his thoughts perish;" in the day, hour, and moment he dies: not that the soul ceases, or ceases to think at death; it is immortal, and dies not; and, as it exists in a separate state after death, it retains all its powers and faculties, and, among the rest, its power of thinking; which it is capable of exercising, and does, as appears from the case of the souls under the altar, Revelation 6:9. But the meaning is, that at death all the purposes and designs of men are at an end; all their projects and schemes, which they had formed, and were pursuing, now come to nothing; whether to do good to others, or to aggrandize themselves and families; and therefore such mortal creatures are not to be depended upon, since all their promises may fail; nay, even their good designs may be frustrated; see Job 17:12.

 

[Highway54]

You missed the point; which was that the Father is the one Lord and Jesus is the one Lord.

Therefore, they are the same Lord (in a sense, the same Person).

I understood your point, whereas I separate them as one God who is Jehovah, and one Lord who is Jesus. Interestingly however, that title is applied to both of them, as well as to others as well. But the point was that to "us", us being Christians sir. To us there is one God, and one Lord 1 Cor 8:6

A great verse to see the manipulation is Ps 110:1 and look at a concordance like Strongs that identifies what was originally written, easy to see Faith. Blue letter Bible is a site that is invaluable for research sir. Here is a link to the verse via it: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/110/1/s_588001

 

[justbyfaith]

I understood your point, whereas I separate them as one God who is Jehovah, and one Lord who is Jesus. Interestingly however, that title is applied to both of them, as well as to others as well. But the point was that to "us", us being Christians sir. To us there is one God, and one Lord 1 Cor 8:6

A great verse to see the manipulation is Ps 110:1 and look at a concordance like Strongs that identifies what was originally written, easy to see Faith. Blue letter Bible is a site that is invaluable for research sir. Here is a link to the verse via it: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/110/1/s_588001

It should be clear that Jehovah is the Lord (as opposed to "the LORD") in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Therefore, when it says "Jehovah" in Psalms 110:1, it is speaking of the one Lord; and the One to whom He is speaking is also the one Lord.

Because they are the same Spirit; while the second "Lord" in Psalms 110:1 is the same Spirit as He descended into time and took on an added nature of human flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus did not create himself, so in harmony with verse 15, other was added to clarify that Jesus did not create himself, something you in fact agree with.

Jesus did create Himself.

He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" and "without Him nothing was made that was made".

Jesus' physical human body was created by the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus).

And the Word is God (John 1:1) "from everlasting to everlasting (Psalms 90:2).

 

[Highway54]

Only Christians have the Spirit. Unbelievers perish without Him and the Lord Jesus, which will be the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14).

Ps 146:4 is in reference to a man's breath, which is always limited because it eventually ceases.

John Gill: "His breath goeth forth,...." That is, the breath of a son of man, of any and everyone of the princes; it goes forth continually, and is drawn in again as long as a man lives; but at death it goes forth, and returns no more till the resurrection: the breath which the Lord breathed into man, and which is in his nostrils while he lives, and is very precarious. And when it is taken away, he dies.

"He returneth to his earth;" from whence he was taken, and of which he was made; upon which he lived, where he dwelt, and in which he took delight and pleasure, minding earth and earthly things, and which is now all he has; who, though he may have had many large estates and possessions, nay, have ruled over many kingdoms and countries, yet his property of earth is now no more than the length and breadth of a grave; he returns to earth as soon as he dies, becoming a lump of clay; and particularly when he is interred in it, and when by corruption and worms he is turned into it.

"In that very day his thoughts perish;" in the day, hour, and moment he dies: not that the soul ceases, or ceases to think at death; it is immortal, and dies not; and, as it exists in a separate state after death, it retains all its powers and faculties, and, among the rest, its power of thinking; which it is capable of exercising, and does, as appears from the case of the souls under the altar, Revelation 6:9. But the meaning is, that at death all the purposes and designs of men are at an end; all their projects and schemes, which they had formed, and were pursuing, now come to nothing; whether to do good to others, or to aggrandize themselves and families; and therefore such mortal creatures are not to be depended upon, since all their promises may fail; nay, even their good designs may be frustrated; see Job 17:12.

Research Ruach a little deeper Chaplin. The breath that goes out, is of course the breath of life, God's ruach.

 

[netchaplain]

Research Ruach a little deeper Chaplin. The breath that goes out, is of course the breath of life, God's ruach. Ruach applies in many ways sir.

"If any man hath not the Spirit" Rom 8:9; "if" the Spirit is in you Ro 8:11; you must be a child of God to have the Spirit
Gal 4:6.There are innumerable passages that could be cited on this issue. Very important to know the truth of it.

 

[Highway54]

It should be clear that Jehovah is the Lord (as opposed to "the LORD") in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Therefore, when it says "Jehovah" in Psalms 110:1, it is speaking of the one Lord; and the One to whom He is speaking is also the one Lord.

Because they are the same Spirit; while the second "Lord" in Psalms 110:1 is the same Spirit as He descended into time and took on an added nature of human flesh.

It should be clear that Jehovah is the Lord (as opposed to "the LORD") in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

That is actually backwards Faith, when versions that replace the Divine name, they use all capitals LORD, some will tell you in the forward about this.

Therefore, when it says "Jehovah" in Psalms 110:1, it is speaking of the one Lord; and the One to whom He is speaking is also the one Lord.

Ps 110:1 <Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool *.
hwhy Y@hovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); Proper Name, Strong #: 3068

Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God
unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
KJV Word Usage and Count
LORD 6510
GOD 4
JEHOVAH 4
variant 1

!wda 'adown (aw-done'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 113


firm, strong, lord, master
lord, master
reference to men 1a
superintendent of household,of affairs 1a
master 1a
king
reference to God 1a
the Lord God 1a
Lord of the whole earth
lords, kings
reference to men 1b
proprietor of hill of Samaria 1b
master 1b
husband 1b
prophet 1b
governor 1b
prince 1b
king
reference to God 1b
Lord of lords (probably = "thy husband, Yahweh")
my lord, my master
reference to men 1c
master 1c
husband 1c
prophet 1c
prince 1c
king 1c
father 1c
Moses 1c
priest 1c
theophanic angel 1c
captain 1c
general recognition of superiority
reference to God 1c
my Lord,my Lord and my God 1c
Adonai (parallel with Yahweh)
KJV Word Usage and Count
lord 197
master(s) 105
Lord 31
owner 1
sir 1

 

[Highway54]

Jesus did create Himself.

He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" and "without Him nothing was made that was made".

Jesus' physical human body was created by the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus).

And the Word is God (John 1:1) "from everlasting to everlasting (Psalms 90:2).

My mistake sir, I apologize, I thought you believed Jesus was not created.

 

[justbyfaith]

My mistake sir, I apologize, I thought you believed Jesus was not created.

The pre-incarnate Word is not created; He is from everlasting to everlasting.

Jesus, in His incarnation, is created, in His humanity, His physical body was created.

In His Deity He is uncreated.

The Son also ascended to exist outside of time and therefore He is also from everlasting to everlasting (Psalms 90:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

That is actually backwards Faith, when versions that replace the Divine name, they use all capitals LORD, some will tell you in the forward about this.

Ps 110:1 <Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool *.
hwhy Y@hovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); Proper Name, Strong #: 3068

Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God
unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136
KJV Word Usage and Count
LORD 6510
GOD 4
JEHOVAH 4
variant 1

!wda 'adown (aw-done'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 113


firm, strong, lord, master
lord, master
reference to men 1a
superintendent of household,of affairs 1a
master 1a
king
reference to God 1a
the Lord God 1a
Lord of the whole earth
lords, kings
reference to men 1b
proprietor of hill of Samaria 1b
master 1b
husband 1b
prophet 1b
governor 1b
prince 1b
king
reference to God 1b
Lord of lords (probably = "thy husband, Yahweh")
my lord, my master
reference to men 1c
master 1c
husband 1c
prophet 1c
prince 1c
king 1c
father 1c
Moses 1c
priest 1c
theophanic angel 1c
captain 1c
general recognition of superiority
reference to God 1c
my Lord,my Lord and my God 1c
Adonai (parallel with Yahweh)
KJV Word Usage and Count
lord 197
master(s) 105
Lord 31
owner 1
sir 1

Jehovah is the one Lord (Ephesians 4:5; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); as opposed to being "the LORD" also.

So, when we read of Jehovah in scripture, we are seeing a reference to the one "Lord" of holy scripture (as opposed to "the LORD").

 

[for_his_glory]

My mistake sir, I apologize, I thought you believed Jesus was not created.

Only Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was created.


Watch Tower Society teaches Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

 

[justbyfaith]

Only Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was created.

I am not a JW, and I believe that Jesus was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." (Romans 1:3)...according to His humanity; not according to His Deity.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity,

The Holy Spirit, as described in holy scripture, is not a separate entity.

He is the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

And He is a Person (Romans 8:26-27).

 

[for_his_glory]

I am not a JW, and I believe that Jesus was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." (Romans 1:3)...according to His humanity; not according to His Deity.

I know you are not as I was addressing this to Highway54

 

[Highway54]

"If any man hath not the Spirit" Rom 8:9; "if" the Spirit is in you Ro 8:11; you must be a child of God to have the Spirit
Gal 4:6.There are innumerable passages that could be cited on this issue. Very important to know the truth of it.

It is also important to know who that is referring to as well Chaplain. Those of the new covenant are the ones that both of those letters were written to sir. Rom 1:7 and although Paul didn't say it directly in Galatians, it was written to the anointed ones of the covenant as well.

The vast majority of Christians are of the other sheep, not of the little flock of the covenant who are the brothers of Christ.