The Trinity

[heartwashed]

Let me say that I do not deny that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

But I am emphasizing the Oneness of God for you in order to dispel within your minds the heresy of Tritheism.

Because in that they are distinct rather than separate, there is a sense in which they are absolutely One.

 

[heartwashed]

In order to refute my statements properly, you need to do it in a clear and concise manner.

 

[heartwashed]

By quoting my statement (in post #6) and then setting forth the scripture that refutes my statement...

Then quoting the next statement and setting forth your scripture in opposition to that statement.

...and so forth.

You can do this pretty easily by highlighting the statement and then hitting the "Quote" button that appears below it once you are done highlighting it...and then doing the same with the next statement.

 

[heartwashed]

Here, I'll make it easy... https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704068

 

[Free]

So, quote a statement that I have made and bring forth the many passages that you think refute that statement.

I have done so multiple times.

Lord = Master.

In the Athanasian creed. See post #50 (https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704598).



The Athanasian creed.

So, let's go back to this statement you made: "Here this creed substantiates a modalistic form of thinking (that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one Person)."

Let's look at what the Athanasian Creed actually states about the persons of the Trinity:

"That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost."

First, the plural "Persons" is used, and then that is immediately explained as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each being one Person. It is quite easy to see, then, that the Trinity does, in fact, contain three Persons.

Further down, the following is stated:

"For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,"

Which is precisely what I have stated more than once--each Person is truly and fully God in and of themself, yet each are all the one God. Therefore, as I have been saying all along, your position is one of Modalism, or a form of it, and not Trinitarian as the Bible and the creeds state, or at least support.

It is a curious thing that you think the Athanasian Creed supports your position when it utterly refutes it.

So, bring forth your many verses that refute any one of my statements.

I have been doing this, so please stop asking.

I don't think so. The best you have been able to do is to deflect what I am saying by going to another translation and saying that it is better. But you have not been able to produce a single verse that refutes any one of my statements in post #6. If you think that you have, bring it forth again now and prove me wrong.

I have not deflected by appealing to another translation, and I have refuted your statements more than once.

Again, you are using a logical fallacy, in labeling my doctrine as something outside of the realm of orthodoxy, without any proof of scripture that what I am saying is in any way false.

On the contrary, it is precisely because I have refuted at least your main belief--that the Father came to take on human flesh--with proof of Scripture, that I call it Modalism, or a form of it. Whatever you choose to label your belief, it is certainly not Trinitarianism.

And I told you that the way that the Father sent the Son into the world was in the preparing for Him of a body (Hebrews 10:5).

But that addresses nothing. The Son had to already be in existence for the Father to send him into the world. In other words, "sent into the world" means, at least in some instances, to be sent to take on human flesh, which Heb 10:5 supports. That is also why Jesus can pray, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5).

Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Joh 8:25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” (ESV)

Here Jesus clearly claims to not be from this world, claims to the the I Am, and claims to be sent, which, in context, means that he was sent prior to his taking on human flesh.

Philippians 2:5-8 speaks of Jesus emptying Himself of the attributes of Deity and becoming a Man.

Close but not quite. How can deity cease to be deity? How could Jesus, if he is the Father in the flesh, empty himself and become a man, prior to becoming a man? That is, in order to become a man, Jesus would already have to be in existence in order to empty himself. Your position on this makes no sense.

1) If Jesus is not the Father in His pre-incarnate form, then before the incarnation He was either 1/3 of God or else a 2nd God. Which one is it in your view?

And here it is, what I have been pointing out all along. I've pointed out before that this question proves you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. Not that it entirely makes sense either. Jesus is the God-man, God in human flesh, so how can you ask "If Jesus is not the Father in His pre-incarnate form"? The pre-incarnate form is spirit, not flesh.

2) In Matthew 28:19 the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have a singular name; and when you compare to Acts 2:38 (the hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 2:13) you find that that name is Jesus Christ.

I've already addressed this.

 

[Free]

And therefore, in Philippians 2:5-8, when it says, "Jesus Christ" it is referring to the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

No, it most certainly does not. The passage would make no sense if it did. What is interesting is that you cannot even see what you did, which is what you have been doing this whole time, which is what you accuse me of doing. You completely ignored the verses I gave, save one passage at the end, Phil 2:5-8.

So, once again:

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Again, this all agrees with John 1:1-18 and Phil 2:5-8. It was the eternal Son that descended and took on human flesh. That is Trinitarian.

And I have given my doctrine as concerning John 1:1-18 in post #6 (https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704068). I would suggest that you read it again. You have also not been able to refute any of what is written in that post...you can claim that you have; but it is an empty claim for as long as you do not actually refute what I have said in that post.

There is not one mention of John 1:1-18. Perhaps you meant to link to another post.

You can reject the kjv as being the inspired and inerrant (as concerning doctrine) word of God if you so desire. My primary audience is to those who accept the veracity and authority of the kjv. Those who do not, as far as I am concerned, are walking down the broad path that leads to destruction and until they start walking down the narrow path that leads to life, my teaching will not benefit them except inasmuch as they accept the veracity of the kjv. In some cases it may benefit them even if they don't; but probably not unto salvation.

To believe the KJV is inspired and inerrant is to be KJV only, not merely KJV superior, and based on nothing but subjective opinion. Only the autographs were inspired and inerrant.

There is no proof that unicorns are not actually true animals that have become extinct.

Therefore rejecting the kjv on the basis of their mention is indeed frivolous. You should have more faith than that.

I never said I reject the KJV, and certainly not just because of that. It is a good version, it's just inferior to several others.

So, is it your contention that Jesus isn't the Son of God? See 1 John 4:15, 1 John 5:5, John 20:31.

How did you come to that conclusion when I stated:

"This is just playing games with the language. Jesus hasn't always existed outside of time. Even according to your own position, the Father entered into time and took on human flesh in the person of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus has not always existed. The Son, however, has always existed and it was he who took on human flesh."

Of course Jesus is the Son of God.

For if Jesus hasn't always existed outside of time, but the Son has, how is Jesus the Son? These are your statements.
But I contend that Jesus is the Son of God and that He ascended to exist outside of time; which includes prior to creation. All things were indeed made by Him.

And my statements are biblical and support the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God in human flesh. Jesus is not God's name, YHWH is, at least it is the main one.

Notice that the first time we see the name "Jesus," it is in Matthew 1:1, in his genealogy. We also see in Matthew 1:21, "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” That means, the name "Jesus" is only in reference to God Incarnate, or rather, God the Son Incarnate.

Not to mention that the Creeds contradict you as well. From the Nicene Creed: "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father."

I don't disagree with these statements in the slightest.

Your main statement says the following:

"I would say that God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) who descended and took on an added nature of human flesh after having lived one eternal moment,"

"The distinction between the Father and the Son being that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh while the Son is that same Spirit come in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)."

These two statements, however, completly contradict what I said, indeed nearly everything I have said, so why do you claim to not disagree?

 

[heartwashed]

Hi Free,

I can see that you really do think that you have refuted my statements with scripture; however, I don't see it that way. I can't think of one scripture that you have quoted or referenced that contradicts anything that I have said in post #6 or in post #2.

I believe in one God who is the same Lord and the same Spirit in all of His manifestations.

If you believe in a God who is three Persons that are separate rather than distinct, as Him being three Lords, then you believe in a God that is not one Lord as the scriptures declare Him to be one Lord (Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18); as the Athanasian creed forbids you to say that there are three Lords.

I will give once again the following dilemma that you face.

The scripture declares that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And, Jesus is indeed the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord. I have explained how this can be in post #6 (https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1704068).

Now, here is my question for you (I hope that you will answer).

Do you confess, in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture?

YES or NO?

If the answer is NO, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3);

And therefore don't belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

If the answer is YES, then you admit that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (i.e. Jesus is the Father).

However, I am interested in your answer; so I would ask you please to make your doctrine known.

 

[heartwashed]

I would like to add what it says here.

Mat 6:24a-b, No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.

 

[heartwashed]

"That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost."

First, the plural "Persons" is used, and then that is immediately explained as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each being one Person. It is quite easy to see, then, that the Trinity does, in fact, contain three Persons.

Further down, the following is stated:

"For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,"

Which is precisely what I have stated more than once--each Person is truly and fully God in and of themself, yet each are all the one God. Therefore, as I have been saying all along, your position is one of Modalism, or a form of it, and not Trinitarian as the Bible and the creeds state, or at least support.

It is a curious thing that you think the Athanasian Creed supports your position when it utterly refutes it.

I have said the following.

Let me say that I do not deny that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

But I am emphasizing the Oneness of God for you in order to dispel within your minds the heresy of Tritheism.

Because in that they are distinct rather than separate, there is a sense in which they are absolutely One.

 

[heartwashed]

From https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/true-trinity.31183/

1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Jesus is the Lord:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord:

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

That Lord is the Father:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The Father is the Lord:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There is one Lord:

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

John 10:30, I and my Father are one.

It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of holy scripture.

 

[heartwashed]

Part II:

There is one God according to scripture.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD:

James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That one God is, the Father:

James 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Romans 15:6, That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now in Malachi 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal every man treacherously against his brother, by profaning the covenants of our fathers?

Jesus is the everlasting Father:

Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

He is specifically defined as the Son pertaining to the flesh.

Hebrews 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Romans 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Isaiah 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and is thus a distinct Person from the Father, since He is a Man, in the flesh.

The Father inhabiteth eternity:

Isaiah 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is holy; I dwell in a high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

He descended into time and then ascended back up into eternity:

Ephesians 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Therefore there are two Persons...who are also the same Person, though the 2nd Person has experiential knowledge of being human and also is human...dwelling in eternity.

God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

Mar 16:19, So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He also did not vacate eternity when He descended; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells there, they are there eternally. I consider this to be a first truth.

So God did the impossible in the descending, see Luke 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

After having lived one eternal moment, He descended into time and became flesh and dwelt among us:

Ephesians 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

From the Son's perspective it has already happened. From the Father's (experiential) perspective it has yet to happen.

 

[heartwashed]

Now, the Holy Ghost.

There is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He is the Holy Ghost:

John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He (the Father, even the Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Jesus:

John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):

Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Again, there is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

That Spirit is Jesus:

Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Ephesians 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith: that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

A person cannot have the Son and therefore have life unless He is a Spirit come to dwell in them; and yet it is clear from scripture that He is come in the flesh:

(the short version), 2 John 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Therefore Jesus is both come in the flesh (as the Son) and also the Son is a Spirit (1 John 5:12, above) that comes to dwell within us. This Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Ghost; even Jesus Christ, the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

And Jesus is also a human being, come in the flesh, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

 

[heartwashed]

In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as YHWH.

And He also is the great "I will be who I will be".

He reveals Himself in different capacities to Israel under the name YHWH with an adjective placed after His name.

Examples of this are YHWH-Tsidkenuh, YHWH-shalom, YHWH-rapha, and YHWH-jireh.

(The LORD our righteous banner, the LORD our peace, the LORD our healer, the LORD our provider).

When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).

Jesus Christ has always been our salvation, even before the incarnation.

Thus Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; because before the incarnation He was the Father, and the Father's name is Jesus Christ as He is now revealed to us.

Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is one name to be baptized under, and that is the name of Jesus Christ:

Acts 4:10,12, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. This is the stone that was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

For baptism does have the power to save:

1 Peter 3:20-21, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

While baptism does not put away fleshly filth, it does wash away sins:

Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is the only way to salvation; after you know who the Lord is, of course: baptism in titles won't cut it.

Acts 2:39, For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Therefore if you are called, you will fulfill the condition of the promise (the promise is the Holy Ghost; and the condition is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins).

Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Finally, if you are not called, then you were never predestinated, you will not be justified, and you will not be glorified (if you are predestinated and have not been baptized, then you will be baptized with Acts 2:38 salvation at some point in the future):

Romans 8:30, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would encourage you with the following words:

Matthew 7:7-8, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I would also point out the following:

Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Deuteronomy 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[heartwashed]

As one who has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but who did not (physically) continue with the Oneness Pentecostals to be indoctrinated by them, I nevertheless hold to a view of the Godhead that emphasizes His Oneness (although I do not deny the plurality within the Godhead).

I believe that, according to Isaiah 9:6-7, the son that was given shall be given the name of the everlasting Father; and that it is the zeal of the LORD of hosts that shall do this at a specific moment in history; which I believe is yet future (as I write this).

The Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to become the Son,

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

And thus, while the Father in flesh (Jesus Christ of Nazareth the Son of God) was on earth, He also remained behind in eternity (as the eternal Spirit) and answered all of Jesus' prayers from that standpoint.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

This would tell us that the Father dwells outside of time. He lived one eternal "moment" and then descended to become the Son.

Since One who dwells in eternity cannot vacate eternity (because He is not subject to time and therefore His existence in eternity cannot be spatially removed); therefore, when He descended to become the Son, the imprint of His nature remained behind in eternity; and this imprint is actually the Person of the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Father); while He also descended to take on human flesh; and that this Person in flesh, being the same Spirit and therefore the same Person, nevertheless assumed upon Himself human flesh which by necessity makes Him a different Person. Thus I speak forth the words of truth and soberness, that the Father is not the Son; but that the Son is the Father.

The one Spirit (see Ephesians 4:4) that dwells in the Son is the same Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:4-6) that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15); even the Father.

Now comes the test...of whether you are willing to look at the scriptures that back up my pov.

Consider that John 4:23-24 tells us that the Father is a Spirit; that Ephesians 4:4 tells us that there is one Spirit; and that John 14:7-11 tells us that the Spirit that dwelt/dwelleth in Jesus Christ is the Father.

Therefore, it is clear to me from the holy scriptures, that Jesus Christ, in His Spirit, is the Father; but that He also left behind in eternity the distinct imprint of Himself (who is the Father, even a Person who is not only an imprint but the Person of the Father).

This is the One that Jesus prayed to. I have used terminology that is inadequate to explain my position; in all reality God the Father is not an imprint of God's nature but is God Himself. He both went forward to become the Son; and also stayed behind as the One who inhabiteth eternity. In this, the Father exists in eternity while the Son simultaneously exists on earth.

Now when Jesus rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); while He continued to exist in a finite human body (1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv)), which I believe is not subject to time. He ascended to exist outside of time, side-by-side with His pre-incarnate self. Thus, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

The Holy Ghost, who is also that one Spirit who dwelt/dwelleth in Christ, was also released by Christ back to the Father (Luke 23:46) into eternity. He is the same Spirit as the Father, and also has the experience behind Him of living the life of Jesus; and therefore He is the perfect One to come and dwell within us and to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God. He understands humanity; for He has been human.

Now there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). That Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24). But that Spirit is also the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (John 15:26); but He is also the same Spirit as the Father (1 Corinthians 12:4-6; also consider that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that this Spirit is both the Father (John 4:23-24) and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

All of this is in no way saying that God puts on hats or masks and puts on a different hat or mask for any occasion.

It is saying, however, that there is one God; even as the scripture teaches we would do well to believe (James 2:19).

The opposing viewpoint has the problem of being Tritheistic to a certain degree; in other words, you cannot get around the fact that they are preaching three Gods rather than the same God being all three members of the Trinity.

Why should it be surprising to you that I would make the statement that God is a Person?

The doctrine of the Trinity preaches that He is three-in-one; and the concepts that I place before you do not contradict this understanding.

Therefore, if you have a problem with what I am saying, go to the Lord about it. Seek Him. Ask Him if what I am saying is the case or not. And by all means, be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11).

 

[for_his_glory]

If we have been agreeing all along, then what is your contention with me? I believe that I have been agreeing with much of what you say but that you have been disagreeing with some of my statements without actually specifying what those statements are.

Because you keep telling Free and myself we believe in three God's instead of one true God. Go back and read where you keep insisting there is one true God as we have told you over and over there is only one true God, but maybe it could be possible you do not understand Deity.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

IMO, the simplest way to explain the Deity (Trinity) is found in these two scriptures, but yet no one can fully understand the Trinity as that would mean one could fully understand all the complexities of heavens.

Can you fathom the depths of God or discover the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens, what can you do? Job 11:7, 8; Isaiah 55:9.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God is the word from the beginning being one God who exist in three persons. Trinity means three in one Spirit, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

God is Spirit, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus also said of Himself in Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

God is the word (Spirit of God),

The word became flesh (Jesus, Spirit of God) and dwelt among us,

When the word (Jesus, Spirit of God made flesh) ascended back up to heaven, once again God sent His Spirit, (Holy Spirit) to indwell us and teach us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance.

Deity (Trinity) is God's Spirit manifested in the person of Jesus as God's plan of salvation through His birth, death and resurrection before the foundation of the world.

Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) was again sent down to permanently indwell those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:5-7, who will teach us all truths of what Jesus, (the word of God made flesh), already taught His disciples who were sent out into the world to make disciples of all of us to help teach others the Gospel of God's grace through faith.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[for_his_glory]

As one who has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but who did not (physically) continue with the Oneness Pentecostals to be indoctrinated by them, I nevertheless hold to a view of the Godhead that emphasizes His Oneness (although I do not deny the plurality within the Godhead).

Now I understand where you are coming from as you do hold the teachings of the Oneness even though you say you are not indoctrinated, but yet believe what they teach.

Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one. Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Trinitarian doctrine is a "tradition of men" and is neither scriptural nor a teaching of God, citing the absence of the word "Trinity" from the Bible as one evidence of this.

This is why you are all over the place with what you present confusing your self saying one thing and turning it around saying another thing. I do not hold this against you, but you need to get your understanding straighten out as you can't have it both ways as you present.

 

[heartwashed]

Because you keep telling Free and myself we believe in three God's instead of one true God. Go back and read where you keep insisting there is one true God as we have told you over and over there is only one true God, but maybe it could be possible you do not understand Deity.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

IMO, the simplest way to explain the Deity (Trinity) is found in these two scriptures, but yet no one can fully understand the Trinity as that would mean one could fully understand all the complexities of heavens.

Can you fathom the depths of God or discover the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens, what can you do? Job 11:7, 8; Isaiah 55:9.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God is the word from the beginning being one God who exist in three persons. Trinity means three in one Spirit, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

God is Spirit, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus also said of Himself in Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

God is the word (Spirit of God),

The word became flesh (Jesus, Spirit of God) and dwelt among us,

When the word (Jesus, Spirit of God made flesh) ascended back up to heaven, once again God sent His Spirit, (Holy Spirit) to indwell us and teach us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance.

Deity (Trinity) is God's Spirit manifested in the person of Jesus as God's plan of salvation through His birth, death and resurrection before the foundation of the world.

Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) was again sent down to permanently indwell those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:5-7, who will teach us all truths of what Jesus, (the word of God made flesh), already taught His disciples who were sent out into the world to make disciples of all of us to help teach others the Gospel of God's grace through faith.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Thank you. Nothing that you have preached here contradicts my premise that I have laid forth in post #6 and now in the most recent posts that I have posted.

 

[heartwashed]

Now I understand where you are coming from as you do hold the teachings of the Oneness even though you say you are not indoctrinated, but yet believe what they teach.

Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one. Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Trinitarian doctrine is a "tradition of men" and is neither scriptural nor a teaching of God, citing the absence of the word "Trinity" from the Bible as one evidence of this.

This is why you are all over the place with what you present confusing your self saying one thing and turning it around saying another thing. I do not hold this against you, but you need to get your understanding straighten out as you can't have it both ways as you present.

I haven't been indoctrinated; and if I believe what they teach, it is because I have the same Holy Ghost as the result of being baptized in Jesus' Name.

Do the Oneness Pentecostals hold to a distinction between the Persons in the Trinity?

Because I do; and if they don't, then that is where I differ with them.

 

[heartwashed]

Go back and read where you keep insisting there is one true God as we have told you over and over there is only one true God,

You continue to give lip service to that idea; but your underlying thinking doesn't jive with the theology that there is one Spirit, even one Lord, even one God.

 

[heartwashed]

Free and for_his_glory,

If you answer nothing else, answer me this, https://christianforums.net/threads/the-trinity.92500/post-1705755