The Victorious Christ

[Robert Pate]

Hmmm... What you've written here makes me think of the following verse:

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV)
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

"Through faith"? Interesting, no? God's keeping power seems to work in tandem with a person's faith, according to Peter, the two combining to bring the born-again person to the "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," which is, as Peter had explained in verse 4, the "inheritance, incorruptible, undefiled, and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven" for the believer.

What does the writer of Hebrews say?

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.


And Paul? What does he think?

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."

Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ (1 John 5:11-12; John 1:4-12; John 14:6, etc.). In him, as you've pointed out, my salvation is located. But I access that salvation by way of faith. My faith in Jesus doesn't create my salvation; my faith in him doesn't make my salvation real, nor does it serve to earn my salvation; but my faith is nonetheless crucial to my being saved. If I don't "believe in my heart" that Christ is my Lord and Savior and confess that truth with my mouth, I cannot be saved.

It's like having a brain tumor. I can't do anything myself to remove the tumor; I can't operate on myself and get it out of my head. I need a neurosurgeon for that. But if I don't believe the oncologist who tells me I have a brain tumor and I refuse to see the brain surgeon and allow him to operate on my brain, I will die of the tumor. If I won't avail myself of the saving work of the brain surgeon, trusting in him to free me of my deadly affliction, I can't be saved. But having done so, having placed my faith in the tumor-eradicating power of the neurosurgeon, I can only lay upon an operating table and receive from him his life-saving work; I can't contribute in the slightest to what actually saves me. If the surgeon doesn't do his thing and remove my tumor, none of what I've done to arrive at the operating table will matter one bit.

In the same way, my faith in the Savior is necessary to being saved; without faith in him, the work of the Great Physician benefits me not at all. But my faith in-and-of-itself has no salvific power; it is only the object of my trust - Jesus, my Savior - who can free me of my sin-sickness. Nonetheless, my faith in him is crucial to my being saved.

John 3:14-18 (NASB)
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Hmmm... Defeating sin, death and devil is not precisely the same as destroying them. There are many who are, right now, bound under these things very powerfully and destined to an eternity apart from God. Do you deny this? The Bible doesn't. Jesus himself said that there were only a few who found the Narrow Way (Matthew 7:13-14). In what way, then, exactly, is Christ victorious over sin, death and the devil?



Jesus is the potential Savior of all who by faith receive him as such; but as Scripture makes clear, the majority of people on this planet have not, and will not, put themselves under his Lordship and avail themselves of his atoning work for them at Calvary. It's worth pointing this out, it seems to me, lest someone mistake what you're saying for the false teaching of universalism.



Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus and what he did to "purge our sins," but it is who did the purging, that makes the purging possible and effective, not the purging itself. There was only One who could be the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"; it was because Jesus was who he was that his atonement was "once for all" and perfectly satisfying to God the Father. I'd be careful, then, making what Jesus did the key to the salvation he obtained for us. Our salvation is ultimately located in him, not merely in what he has done.

Many believe in Jesus, but they don't believe that he conquered sin, death and the devil. Only God can defeat sin, death and the devil. Jesus was God in the flesh, Colossians 1:15-20.

 

[donadams]

You're wasting your time and ours posting this stuff. Again... you are saved by God's grace. Period. Baptism is a ritual that saves no one.

That’s not what Jesus said Mk 16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 again faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us
But you’re right it is by grace, but only those who have faith and baptism have the grace of God, the life of God in their souls, and are in the new covenant united to Christ in communion with God and His saints, a new creation in Christ!

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

 

[donadams]

The only thing that water baptism is going to do for you is get you wet. Chances are you are a member of the Church of Christ. The only baptism that counts for anything is when you are baptized into Christ, Romans 6:3.

Water baptism / baptismal regeneration / Christian sacrament of baptism are the same!
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

 

[jaybo]

John said, "Beloved, believe not every Spirit, but try the Spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" 1 John 4:1.

I am a Spirit inspector. I don't see much evidence of the Holy Spirit on these Forums.

You're joking! If you don't see much evidence of the Holy Spirit on these Forums, then a) you're "blind" and b) you're welcome to leave.

Frankly, I would welcome your leaving, as your posts are invariably nonsense.

 

[jaybo]

That’s not what Jesus said Mk 16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 again faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us
But you’re right it is by grace, but only those who have faith and baptism have the grace of God, the life of God in their souls, and are in the new covenant united to Christ in communion with God and His saints, a new creation in Christ!

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

If baptism saves people, then everyone that John baptized in the Jordan would be saved and have no need for Christ. That is obvious; why can't you see it?

 

[Tenchi]

Many believe in Jesus, but they don't believe that he conquered sin, death and the devil. Only God can defeat sin, death and the devil. Jesus was God in the flesh, Colossians 1:15-20.

Yes. But, as I observed, it is not immediately and plainly evident that Christ has been victorious. There are many who are powerfully bound in the grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil. Why doesn't his victory extend to them? How is it that many born-again people continue to labor under bondage to these things if they have been liberated from the power of all of them by their Savior?

 

[Tenchi]

That’s not what Jesus said Mk 16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved

Well, look more closely at the verse.

Mark 16:16 (NASB)
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

This verse offers a parallel: The saved, free-from-condemnation person has believed and been baptized; the unsaved, person doesn't believe and is condemned. What condemns the unsaved person? Their not being baptized? No, only the fact that they haven't believed. Regarding salvation, the parallel emphasizes belief, not baptism. Why? Because baptism is merely the result of belief, the by-product, or expression, of saving faith; baptism is not itself salvific. And so, Mark doesn't make the lack of baptism the distinguishing feature of the unsaved person, only their unbelief. This comports perfectly with the passages of the Bible that explicitly deny that one's salvation relies in any measure upon any good deed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What about the passage you cited from Matthew?

Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

I don't see anything here that indicates that baptism is salvific. Baptism signifies the believer's spiritual union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-11); baptism signifies the dying of the believer to a life of Self and sin unto a life of submission and new identity in Jesus Christ; baptism associates faith with action, ideally giving the new believer their first opportunity to manifest their belief in Christ in a concrete manner (Acts 2:41; 8:12-13, 36; 10:44-48, etc.). But Matthew 28:19 says nothing about baptism being the means of salvation; you must read that into the verse, not extract it from the verse.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NASB)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Here, Peter indicated that baptism isn't about cleaning one's exterior by a dunking in water, but is merely "an appeal to God for a good conscience." The born-again believer has been placed "in Christ," baptized into him, by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:4-5 (NASB)
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

What did the disciples expect the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" to be? A water ritual? No:

Acts 1:8 (NASB)
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you...

The baptism of which Peter wrote, which he likened to Noah's Ark, was, I believe, the baptism of the Spirit by whom all believers are "baptized" into Christ, entirely apart from any action they might take, as in the case of the disciples in Acts who simply waited until the Holy Spirit "came upon them." Christ is the believer's "Ark," in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, carrying them safe through the judgment of God upon the wicked at the End of Days.

At the end of Acts 10, there is an account of Gentile believers receiving the Holy Spirit, demonstrating their spiritual regeneration by speaking in tongues but without first being water-baptized. In the Person of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), these Gentile believer's salvation was imparted to them (Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-15), who came upon them entirely apart from, and prior to, their water baptism. This comports with the salvation of the thief on the cross who also believed in Christ and was saved without being baptized in water.

It is only by way of eisegesis (reading into) of Scripture that water-baptism can be made to be a necessary feature of a person's salvation.

 

[donadams]

If baptism saves people, then everyone that John baptized in the Jordan would be saved and have no need for Christ. That is obvious; why can't you see it?

Of course not, John was preparing the way for Christ and the sacrament of Christian baptism that includes the spirit and fire not repentance only
Acts 1;8 the witness of the fathers

AUGUSTINE​

“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

 

[donadams]

Well, look more closely at the verse.

Mark 16:16 (NASB)
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

This verse offers a parallel: The saved, free-from-condemnation person has believed and been baptized; the unsaved, person doesn't believe and is condemned. What condemns the unsaved person? Their not being baptized? No, only the fact that they haven't believed. Regarding salvation, the parallel emphasizes belief, not baptism. Why? Because baptism is merely the result of belief, the by-product, or expression, of saving faith; baptism is not itself salvific. And so, Mark doesn't make the lack of baptism the distinguishing feature of the unsaved person, only their unbelief. This comports perfectly with the passages of the Bible that explicitly deny that one's salvation relies in any measure upon any good deed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What about the passage you cited from Matthew?

Matthew 28:19 (NASB)
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

I don't see anything here that indicates that baptism is salvific. Baptism signifies the believer's spiritual union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-11); baptism signifies the dying of the believer to a life of Self and sin unto a life of submission and new identity in Jesus Christ; baptism associates faith with action, ideally giving the new believer their first opportunity to manifest their belief in Christ in a concrete manner (Acts 2:41; 8:12-13, 36; 10:44-48, etc.). But Matthew 28:19 says nothing about baptism being the means of salvation; you must read that into the verse, not extract it from the verse.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NASB)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Here, Peter indicated that baptism isn't about cleaning one's exterior by a dunking in water, but is merely "an appeal to God for a good conscience." The born-again believer has been placed "in Christ," baptized into him, by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:4-5 (NASB)
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

What did the disciples expect the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" to be? A water ritual? No:

Acts 1:8 (NASB)
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you...

The baptism of which Peter wrote, which he likened to Noah's Ark, was, I believe, the baptism of the Spirit by whom all believers are "baptized" into Christ, entirely apart from any action they might take, as in the case of the disciples in Acts who simply waited until the Holy Spirit "came upon them." Christ is the believer's "Ark," in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, carrying them safe through the judgment of God upon the wicked at the End of Days.

Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are two statements and they cannot contradict each other!

Nor can one be used to deny the other!

No scripture twisting here!

Requirements?

Those who are being saved?

Absolute requirement of both faith and baptism!

And it is baptism that is the Christian initiation into the new covenant of grace, baptism is the outward sign of the new covenant!

Those not being saved?
Nothing is required, if you reject the first requirements of those being saved why bother to mention the second?

Faith and baptism are required for salvation!

Eph 4:5 why is baptism included

Please answer some questions


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

 

[Tenchi]

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

There are two statements and they cannot contradict each other!

Nor can one be used to deny the other!

No scripture twisting here!

??? You haven't shown any "scripture twisting," you've just asserted it. I have explained in a way quite faithful to the text how Mark 16:16 doesn't actually support water-baptism as salvific. You haven't offered anything to show I'm in error, just an unfounded declaration that I am. Simply saying a thing is so, though, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Requirements?

Those who are being saved?

Absolute requirement of both faith and baptism!

The mere assertion of your view doesn't constitute a justification for it. In other words, merely asserting the verses say what you think they say doesn't actually prove that they do. As I've shown, you are reading into Mark 16:16 what it doesn't actually say.

And it is baptism that is the Christian initiation into the new covenant of grace, baptism is the outward sign of the new covenant!

Yes, baptism signifies outwardly an inward change. But water-baptism does nothing more; it doesn't confer salvation upon a person.

Those not being saved?
Nothing is required, if you reject the first requirements of those being saved why bother to mention the second?

I explained quite clearly why the parallel is made and what is the defining distinction between them. That distinction isn't baptism, but belief. It is belief that is necessary to salvation, not baptism, which is why so many verses in Scripture speaking of the means of salvation never mention baptism, only belief (or faith and/or trust). Here's a great example:

John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not one word about water-baptism. Not even a hint of it.

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Nothing about water-baptism here, either.

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

No comment concerning water-baptism being salvific in this verse...

John 7:38-39 (NASB)
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where's water-baptism? Doesn't Jesus know people can't get saved without water-baptism?

John 20:31 (NASB)
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John doesn't seem to know about water-baptism being essential to salvation, either...

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What is with all these people leaving out water-baptism, eh?!

And so on. Why is it in Scripture that belief (trust, faith) is always made essential to salvation but not water-baptism? I think it is as I said: Water-baptism is an expression of one's salvation, not the means of it. And so, we see baptism sometimes included in remarks about salvation and sometimes not - as one would expect since it isn't vital to being saved, like belief is.

Eph 4:5 why is baptism included

Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Where does this passage indicate water-baptism is necessary to one's salvation? It doesn't. The passage simply says there is one baptism associated with the Christian faith, just as there is only one Lord, one Body of Believers, one Holy Spirit, etc.. There isn't one word about baptism being essential to salvation. That you think this passage supports water-baptism shows how much you are reading into Scripture what you want to see in it, rather than drawing out of God's word what it actually says.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 (NASB)
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

What does "sprinkle clean water on you" refer to?

Well, note that it is God speaking to the "house of Israel" about what He would do. He is the One "sprinkling clean water on you," and who will "give you a new heart," and "put a new spirit in you." No human agent can confer such a heart and spirit upon a person, replacing a heart of stone with one of flesh, and putting the Holy Spirit within a person, only God. No human person can do the "sprinkling" of which God spoke, either. All of these things are supernatural events, performed only by God, which, then, excludes water-baptism.

Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

All of these have the same problem that I've shown in the verses/passages I've already dealt with: eisegesis (and a poor hermeneutic system, also).

“Faith alone” Questions

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Why are you asking me this?

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes. But, as I observed, it is not immediately and plainly evident that Christ has been victorious. There are many who are powerfully bound in the grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil. Why doesn't his victory extend to them? How is it that many born-again people continue to labor under bondage to these things if they have been liberated from the power of all of them by their Savior?

Because they love their sins more than they love Christ, who gave himself for them.

 

[donadams]

??? You haven't shown any "scripture twisting," you've just asserted it. I have explained in a way quite faithful to the text how Mark 16:16 doesn't actually support water-baptism as salvific. You haven't offered anything to show I'm in error, just an unfounded declaration that I am. Simply saying a thing is so, though, doesn't necessarily make it so.



The mere assertion of your view doesn't constitute a justification for it. In other words, merely asserting the verses say what you think they say doesn't actually prove that they do. As I've shown, you are reading into Mark 16:16 what it doesn't actually say.



Yes, baptism signifies outwardly an inward change. But water-baptism does nothing more; it doesn't confer salvation upon a person.



I explained quite clearly why the parallel is made and what is the defining distinction between them. That distinction isn't baptism, but belief. It is belief that is necessary to salvation, not baptism, which is why so many verses in Scripture speaking of the means of salvation never mention baptism, only belief (or faith and/or trust). Here's a great example:

John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not one word about water-baptism. Not even a hint of it.

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Nothing about water-baptism here, either.

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

No comment concerning water-baptism being salvific in this verse...

John 7:38-39 (NASB)
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where's water-baptism? Doesn't Jesus know people can't get saved without water-baptism?

John 20:31 (NASB)
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John doesn't seem to know about water-baptism being essential to salvation, either...

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What is with all these people leaving out water-baptism, eh?!

And so on. Why is it in Scripture that belief (trust, faith) is always made essential to salvation but not water-baptism? I think it is as I said: Water-baptism is an expression of one's salvation, not the means of it. And so, we see baptism sometimes included in remarks about salvation and sometimes not - as one would expect since it isn't vital to being saved, like belief is.



Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Where does this passage indicate water-baptism is necessary to one's salvation? It doesn't. The passage simply says there is one baptism associated with the Christian faith, just as there is only one Lord, one Body of Believers, one Holy Spirit, etc.. There isn't one word about baptism being essential to salvation. That you think this passage supports water-baptism shows how much you are reading into Scripture what you want to see in it, rather than drawing out of God's word what it actually says.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 (NASB)
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

What does "sprinkle clean water on you" refer to?

Well, note that it is God speaking to the "house of Israel" about what He would do. He is the One "sprinkling clean water on you," and who will "give you a new heart," and "put a new spirit in you." No human agent can confer such a heart and spirit upon a person, replacing a heart of stone with one of flesh, and putting the Holy Spirit within a person, only God. No human person can do the "sprinkling" of which God spoke, either. All of these things are supernatural events, performed only by God, which, then, excludes water-baptism.



All of these have the same problem that I've shown in the verses/passages I've already dealt with: eisegesis (and a poor hermeneutic system, also).



Why are you asking me this?

Cos you’re defending the 16th century novelty of “faith alone “

Do you really believe Jesus Christ revealed a truth in the first part of a verse to cancel it with the second part of a verse?

Eph 4:5 One Lord is essential to salvation!
One faith is essential to salvation!
One baptism? Well it just got stuck at the end and ain’t essential???

The faith you refer to in all those verse is the faith revealed by Christ jude 1:3 required for salvation and that faith includes baptism

Do you reject the nicene creed?

“one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”
not for obedience
Not for public show
Acts 22:16 wash away sin!
Who is he speaking to in this verse?

 

[jaybo]

Of course not, John was preparing the way for Christ and the sacrament of Christian baptism that includes the spirit and fire not repentance only
Acts 1;8 the witness of the fathers

AUGUSTINE​

“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

John baptized people! If baptism saves people then all those he baptized were saved. Otherwise, baptism does not save people. If it does, why did Jesus insist on being baptized? Was He not saved?

Baptism simply means "immersion". Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an entirely different thing than water baptism. Water baptism is a symbolic statement that the natural, sinful man is dead and buried, and the new man arises from the water as a new creation in Christ. Romans 6:4 explains this: "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

Augustine was a learned man but he did not write Scripture. That is very important! He wrote Catholic doctrine only.

 

[donadams]

??? You haven't shown any "scripture twisting," you've just asserted it. I have explained in a way quite faithful to the text how Mark 16:16 doesn't actually support water-baptism as salvific. You haven't offered anything to show I'm in error, just an unfounded declaration that I am. Simply saying a thing is so, though, doesn't necessarily make it so.



The mere assertion of your view doesn't constitute a justification for it. In other words, merely asserting the verses say what you think they say doesn't actually prove that they do. As I've shown, you are reading into Mark 16:16 what it doesn't actually say.



Yes, baptism signifies outwardly an inward change. But water-baptism does nothing more; it doesn't confer salvation upon a person.



I explained quite clearly why the parallel is made and what is the defining distinction between them. That distinction isn't baptism, but belief. It is belief that is necessary to salvation, not baptism, which is why so many verses in Scripture speaking of the means of salvation never mention baptism, only belief (or faith and/or trust). Here's a great example:

John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not one word about water-baptism. Not even a hint of it.

Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Nothing about water-baptism here, either.

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

No comment concerning water-baptism being salvific in this verse...

John 7:38-39 (NASB)
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where's water-baptism? Doesn't Jesus know people can't get saved without water-baptism?

John 20:31 (NASB)
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John doesn't seem to know about water-baptism being essential to salvation, either...

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What is with all these people leaving out water-baptism, eh?!

And so on. Why is it in Scripture that belief (trust, faith) is always made essential to salvation but not water-baptism? I think it is as I said: Water-baptism is an expression of one's salvation, not the means of it. And so, we see baptism sometimes included in remarks about salvation and sometimes not - as one would expect since it isn't vital to being saved, like belief is.



Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Where does this passage indicate water-baptism is necessary to one's salvation? It doesn't. The passage simply says there is one baptism associated with the Christian faith, just as there is only one Lord, one Body of Believers, one Holy Spirit, etc.. There isn't one word about baptism being essential to salvation. That you think this passage supports water-baptism shows how much you are reading into Scripture what you want to see in it, rather than drawing out of God's word what it actually says.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 (NASB)
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

What does "sprinkle clean water on you" refer to?

Well, note that it is God speaking to the "house of Israel" about what He would do. He is the One "sprinkling clean water on you," and who will "give you a new heart," and "put a new spirit in you." No human agent can confer such a heart and spirit upon a person, replacing a heart of stone with one of flesh, and putting the Holy Spirit within a person, only God. No human person can do the "sprinkling" of which God spoke, either. All of these things are supernatural events, performed only by God, which, then, excludes water-baptism.



All of these have the same problem that I've shown in the verses/passages I've already dealt with: eisegesis (and a poor hermeneutic system, also).



Why are you asking me this?

Lk 8:5-8 all had faith are they all saved?

 

[donadams]

John baptized people! If baptism saves people then all those he baptized were saved. Otherwise, baptism does not save people. If it does, why did Jesus insist on being baptized? Was He not saved?

Baptism simply means "immersion". Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an entirely different thing than water baptism. Water baptism is a symbolic statement that the natural, sinful man is dead and buried, and the new man arises from the water as a new creation in Christ. Romans 6:4 explains this: "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life."

Augustine was a learned man but he did not write Scripture. That is very important! He wrote Catholic doctrine only.

You know John was a baptism of repentance in preparation for the new covenant sacrament of f baptism

Outward sign of the inward action of grace so without the outward sign and washing there is no inward grace and washing away all sin
Scripture applies to the ECF acts 1:8 my witnesses
And they all taught faith and baptism and infant baptism

 

[jaybo]

Lk 8:5-8 all had faith are they all saved?

Once again you are clearly wrong. Why can't you understand Scripture? Has Satan blinded you to the truth?

 

[jaybo]

You know John was a baptism of repentance in preparation for the new covenant sacrament of f baptism

Outward sign of the inward action of grace so without the outward sign and washing there is no inward grace and washing away all sin
Scripture applies to the ECF acts 1:8 my witnesses
And they all taught faith and baptism and infant baptism

You are clearly wrong in what you post. One error after another. I will be ignoring you from now on.

 

[Tenchi]

Cos you’re defending the 16th century novelty of “faith alone “

What do you mean by "faith alone"?

Do you really believe Jesus Christ revealed a truth in the first part of a verse to cancel it with the second part of a verse?

This is called a Strawman argument. It's fallacious.

Eph 4:5 One Lord is essential to salvation!
One faith is essential to salvation!
One baptism? Well it just got stuck at the end and ain’t essential???

Where does the verse say baptism is essential to salvation? There is one baptism in the Christian faith; this is all the verse says about baptism. That's it. Nothing about salvation, nothing about baptism being salvific, just one baptism (the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which doesn't involve water). The emphasis is solely upon the singularity of the things named, nothing else. I've no idea why this isn't totally obvious to you...

The faith you refer to in all those verse is the faith revealed by Christ jude 1:3 required for salvation and that faith includes baptism

Jude 1:3 (NASB)
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

No, it's not. This is so obvious, I don't know what else to say about them.

John 3:16-18 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you reject the nicene creed?

“one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”

This bit about "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" I do.

Acts 22:16 wash away sin!
Who is he speaking to in this verse?

Acts 22:16 (NASB)
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Ananias was speaking to Saul (aka Paul).

Doesn't the shed blood of Christ cleanse a person from their sin?

Romans 5:8-9 (NASB)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Ephesians 1:7-8 (NASB)
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us...

Colossians 1:19-20 (NASB)
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Hebrews 13:12 (NASB)
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

1 John 1:7 (NASB)
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The ritual of water-baptism signifies the cleansing that has already been accomplished for the born-again believer through the blood of Jesus Christ. In light of these verses, one simply cannot hold that Ananias meant to say that water-baptism has the supernatural cleansing effect of the shed blood of Jesus. He meant only that water-baptism is symbolic of that cleansing.

Each time you throw out a proof-text, you reveal just how little you understand God's word. It will never be understood by taking portions of it in isolation and contradiction to other parts.

 

[Tenchi]

Lk 8:5-8 all had faith are they all saved?

Luke 8:11-15 (NASB)
11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Only the last ground for the seed, the "good soil" that produced a great crop, represents the truly saved person. But this is understood by the effect of their genuine salvation, by the big "crop" that their salvation produced. The "big crop" wasn't the means of their salvation, however, any more than an apple tree is made an apple tree by the apples it produces. It is only because the apple tree is an apple tree that it is able to produce apples. So, too, the "good soil" person whose life produces a good "crop." That crop is the result of their salvation, not the cause of their salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Tenchi]

Because they love their sins more than they love Christ, who gave himself for them.

But how can this be if Christ is victorious over all of their sin? They are "in him," aren't they? Why, then, are they not victorious, too?