"The Word of Faith"

[Mitspa]

1Co 2:15

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Does anyone on this forum know what it means to be "spiritual"?

 

[Mitspa]

Luk 18:17

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.



1Co 3:1


And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:2

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

1Co 3:18

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

The wisdom of God is given to those who have become fools, at His Cross!

 

[Mitspa]

Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ’s garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit’s taste. "How sweet are thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God’s Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ’s voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of his sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under his shadow with great delight," and find his fruit sweet to our taste.-C. Spurgeon

 

[AwakenedOne]

We need a resurrection from dead Christianity. Christianity is in an elementary state because of a lack of progression. This is why there are so many 'babes' who can not handle strong meat.

They have failed to do as Paul said in Hebrews 6:1 :

"Therefore let us leavehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 the elementary teachingshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-ahttp://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 the laying on of hands,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 the resurrection of the dead,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/6.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7 we will do so."

To be able to demonstrate the power you speak of, they must become doers of the word and not hearers only. They must awaken to the fact that the ONLY thing that matters is what they are doing to actively manifest the LOVE of Christ to others on a daily basis. Christianity is in a major need of a revival.

It's a good thing the Scripture says "the dead in Christ will rise first". ;)

Hopefully, they will.

 

[Mitspa]

We need a resurrection from dead Christianity. Christianity is in an elementary state because of a lack of progression. This is why there are so many 'babes' who can not handle strong meat.

They have failed to do as Paul said in Hebrews 6:1 :

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so."

To be able to demonstrate the power you speak of, they must become doers of the word and not hearers only. They must awaken to the fact that the ONLY thing that matters is what they are doing to actively manifest the LOVE of Christ to others on a daily basis. Christianity is in a major need of a revival.

It's a good thing the Scripture says "the dead in Christ will rise first". ;)

Hopefully, they will.

yes, but i do wonder? is the lack of power in the church, bacause "simple faith" has been turned into "religious faith"? If the Church was taught that its Gods Will for us to operate in "power" not a matter of our will! or our service, religion..etc

Luk 18:17



Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

This is the key to great faith! to receive as one who needs, not as one who has.:yes

how do you see it?

When i am weak "in this world" then i am strong "in the spiritual realm"

 

[AwakenedOne]

yes, but i do wonder? is the lack of power in the church, bacause "simple faith" has been turned into "religious faith"? If the Church was taught that its Gods Will for us to operate in "power" not a matter of our will! or our service, religion..etc

Yes, "religious faith": Come to church every sunday and wednesday, give tithe and offerings, dress nice, memorize scripture etc.

Compared to "simple faith": accept the simplicity of the message of Christ which is to love others as a little child and DO IT.

Raise the dead: (awaken those who are dead in religion and dead in works)

Heal the sick: (heal those who are faith is incomplete. Help those who are sick physically and spiritually)

Cast out demons: (cast out the false doctrines which bind and plague the minds of its victims by showing them the truth that sets them free)

"True power is extending your hand in love and changing someone's life for the better. "

 

[Mitspa]

Joh 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

1Pe 1:23


Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

All we did is believe ,as children, "The word of God".
and God did the greastest if wonders! By our simple faith we became children of God.

"As ye have received Christ Jesus, so walk ye in Him".

 

[Mitspa]

Mat 4:4

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

For a true believer all of lifes questions is bound up with the Word of God. If you take the opposite of that,you know the natural flesh will suffer because it rejects The Word of God. The true believers life , so depends on the Word that they cannot imagine life apart from faith in it.:yes

 

[Mitspa]

1Jn 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

To walk in light, is to walk in faith. This means walking in the presence and confidence of Gods ability.

Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

True faith always looks for Gods ability and His faithfulness to every promise He has made.

 

[Mitspa]

2Co 10:3

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;



Many would make the "obedience of Christ" a legalistic form of religion. They think also the "obedience of the Gospel" to mean the keeping of the letter.

Obedience is found in faith only,and real faith comes when we learn to challenge every thought of doubt and replace it with a promise of God!

I think right, therefore i believe right, therefore i act right. As a men thinks in his heart so is he.

 

[Mitspa]

Joh 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God never intended to make Himself known by statements, by mans words, by verbal utterances. That is why it is very perilous to be occupied with teaching for the sake of teaching?

For the expression of His Thoughts God required "A Man" a "living example" of the Word. "The Word made Flesh"! The true Word of God must also abide in us, in a living way. The life we live must be a "living example" of Gods Word in us. This would include the power of the Word and the life of the Word. "For the Word of God is living and powerful"

Jer 23:28


The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
Jer 23:29

Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Jer 23:30

Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

 

[Mitspa]

Jas 1:18

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.



Jas 1:24

For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The purpose of the New Testament is not to add more rules to religion. The NT when understood in faith, is to set us free from the limits of the first creation-called "flesh". The Word held in faith will transform all who believe into the "New Creation" or who we really are in Christ Jesus!
Many read the great promises in the Word, such as being made "The Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus", and either do not believe, or soon forget? This great truth is the key to overcoming the "accuser"! Many wonder why they struggle so much? Here is why! You forget what God says about you!

2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Danus]

I have searched on this forum for "true belivers"? Not sure what i have found has anything to do with the Kingdom of God?
I come from the "Word of Faith" background, We have more than words, we have power in" Grace":biglol

Just kinda searching for others on this forum who are "like minded" and know Gods power?

It seems they are two camps on this forum? they both seem to complicate a very simple Gospel?
Rom 10:8



But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
1Co 2:4



And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5



That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.




1Co 4:18



Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19



But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20



For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Mar 16:17



And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18



They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I hope to find fellowship with true believers:yes

Mitspa, Thank you for identifying your theology up-front. Most of the discussions in here center on more of the classic Protestant Armenian / Calvin theologies. That often includes the RCC in line with some of the Armenian theology. Occasionally we see a few Atheist, but when it comes to others identifying themselves as Christian usually we see more of a mixed bag of RCC, Armenian and other reformed Protestants, and sometimes WOF or other Charismatic. Rarely have I seen JW or Mormons, but maybe one will grace us some day. In any case you have been bold enough to identify your theology as that of the Word of Faith back ground, but can you help frame your points for this thread on the WOF theology a little better please?

The WOF movement has been ever changing over the last 30 years or so. It derives from the charismatic churches and movement. It is difficult to pin down what the WOF is because of two things; consistency and specifics. That's why I'd like to know more specifically about where you stand.

I'll get right to the point. I often think of the WOF teachings as a "Trojan Horse" type of heresy. It starts off sounding Christian and often the bible is quoted, but when you scratch the surface it's not the gospel at all, but a man made construct of ideas about God that are put in place solely for the benefit of the believer.

The Word of Faith movement has many distinctive features. It shares teachings with prosperity theology, but they are not exactly the same thing, However, the vast majority of WOF teachings support prosperity theology. The movement emphasizes speaking, stating, or confessing verses with the idea that if one believes the Word of God and confesses it then the believer shall receive what they confess as a personal benefit. So for many in that theology, they end up using this as a practice for health, wealth and prosperity. Many WOF teachers have even gone so far as to say that they are "little god's" in God's image, just like God with the power to do what God does.

The WOF movement continues to air television programs and publish articles and books. Most of the popular ministries in this movement are extremely wealthy. That is those who lead the ministries and a few underlings. Most of the parishioners of this movement are not wealthy at all, but have a desire to be, and they hang on to these beliefs in hopes that it will pay off for them. Some are also seeking health, or other things that they feel will benefit them in some way, all the while giving their money to a ministry that uses the majority of it pay off the leader.

Some derisively call the theology "name it, claim it" or "blab it and grab it." Furthermore, within the Christian sphere, the Word of Faith movement is the fastest growing branch of Pentecostal Christianity. It is very popular because of what it claims to do for the believer in the hear and now, as opposed to the life to come as the gospel teaches. Not all Pentecostals go as far as to identity themselves as WOF. In fact many denounce it, and the WOF ministries will often not identify themselves with any particular denomination, or sub group. Most won't even mention Word of Faith, but use some derivative.

So, which Word of Faith back ground you are claiming? You have shared some scripture, but how would you specifically describe your WOF theology? Has God made you wealthy, healthy and prosperous? Have you healed the sick, raised a dead person, do you own a mansion or jet plan? Anything cool like that which we hear about from the WOF preachers you can share?

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, Thank you for identifying your theology up-front. Most of the discussions in here center on more of the classic Protestant Armenian / Calvin theologies. That often includes the RCC in line with some of the Armenian theology. Occasionally we see a few Atheist, but when it comes to others identifying themselves as Christian usually we see more of a mixed bag of RCC, Armenian and other reformed Protestants, and sometimes WOF or other Charismatic. Rarely have I seen JW or Mormons, but maybe one will grace us some day. In any case you have been bold enough to identify your theology as that of the Word of Faith back ground, but can you help frame your points for this thread on the WOF theology a little better please?

The WOF movement has been ever changing over the last 30 years or so. It derives from the charismatic churches and movement. It is difficult to pin down what the WOF is because of two things; consistency and specifics. That's why I'd like to know more specifically about where you stand.

I'll get right to the point. I often think of the WOF teachings as a "Trojan Horse" type of heresy. It starts off sounding Christian and often the bible is quoted, but when you scratch the surface it's not the gospel at all, but a man made construct of ideas about God that are put in place solely for the benefit of the believer.

The Word of Faith movement has many distinctive features. It shares teachings with prosperity theology, but they are not exactly the same thing, However, the vast majority of WOF teachings support prosperity theology. The movement emphasizes speaking, stating, or confessing verses with the idea that if one believes the Word of God and confesses it then the believer shall receive what they confess as a personal benefit. So for many in that theology, they end up using this as a practice for health, wealth and prosperity. Many WOF teachers have even gone so far as to say that they are "little god's" in God's image, just like God with the power to do what God does.

The WOF movement continues to air television programs and publish articles and books. Most of the popular ministries in this movement are extremely wealthy. That is those who lead the ministries and a few underlings. Most of the parishioners of this movement are not wealthy at all, but have a desire to be, and they hang on to these beliefs in hopes that it will pay off for them. Some are also seeking health, or other things that they feel will benefit them in some way, all the while giving their money to a ministry that uses the majority of it pay off the leader.

Some derisively call the theology "name it, claim it" or "blab it and grab it." Furthermore, within the Christian sphere, the Word of Faith movement is the fastest growing branch of Pentecostal Christianity. It is very popular because of what it claims to do for the believer in the hear and now, as opposed to the life to come as the gospel teaches. Not all Pentecostals go as far as to identity themselves as WOF. In fact many denounce it, and the WOF ministries will often not identify themselves with any particular denomination, or sub group. Most won't even mention Word of Faith, but use some derivative.

So, which Word of Faith back ground you are claiming? You have shared some scripture, but how would you specifically describe your WOF theology? Has God made you wealthy, healthy and prosperous? Have you healed the sick, raised a dead person, do you own a mansion or jet plan? Anything cool like that which we hear about from the WOF preachers you can share?

I thank you for your kind attitude. Your other "moderator" was not so gentle
As i have stated i have learned from many teachers from the so-called Church fathers to some i hold in regard today. For sake of being polite, i would most generally associate myself with two modern teachers, Andrew Wommack, Joseph Prince. As i look at my books in the shelves, chairs, floors, tables, etc..
I will make you a list. Billy Graham, Charles Finney, A.W. Tozer, T.A. Sparks,D.L. Moody, Smith Wigglesworth, E.W. Kenyon, K. Haggin Sr., John Wesley,C.Spurgeon, and some others. I find it kinda odd that the largest and fastest growing part of the Christian faith would have so little to share on this forum? If i had to guess? maybe they have been made to feel unwelcome?

I assure you i find much to disagree with in many of these writers, and much i have learned from them. I am sure you and i agree on much? and would disagree on much? But the Heart of one who belongs to Christ will always find a place of peace with his brothers who love him.
Now as far as seeing the power of God in my own life? I will let you guess at that. I will declare the Word of God has Power for those who believe!

 

[Danus]

I thank you for your kind attitude. Your other "moderator" was not so gentle
As i have stated i have learned from many teachers from the so-called Church fathers to some i hold in regard today. For sake of being polite, i would most generally associate myself with two modern teachers, Andrew Wommack, Joseph Prince. As i look at my books in the shelves, chairs, floors, tables, etc..
I will make you a list. Billy Graham, Charles Finney, A.W. Tozer, T.A. Sparks,D.L. Moody, Smith Wigglesworth, E.W. Kenyon, K. Haggin Sr., John Wesley,C.Spurgeon, and some others. I find it kinda odd that the largest and fastest growing part of the Christian faith would have so little to share on this forum? If i had to guess? maybe they have been made to feel unwelcome?

I assure you i find much to disagree with in many of these writers, and much i have learned from them. I am sure you and i agree on much? and would disagree on much? But the Heart of one who belongs to Christ will always find a place of peace with his brothers who love him.
Now as far as seeing the power of God in my own life? I will let you guess at that. I will declare the Word of God has Power for those who believe!

Quite a mix of teachers there. Some I admire a great deal. Graham, Spurgeon are two. They would strongly disagree with Prince, Hagin, and Wigglesworth. John Wesley was a mixed bag of Arminius and Luther teachings, but for the most part a strong Protestant.

I agree the word of God holds power, as to what type of power I'd like you to comment on, as you see fit. That way we can cut through the "stuff" and "fluff" and get to brass tacks.

We get quite a few WOF folks in here, and still have many. The WOF movement is often the face of Christianity today for the world. I think that's a shame, but some are quite good at presentation; like Prince and Olsteen. I give them credit for interesting and enticing some in the world to an aspect of Christianity, even though I feel they teach pure garbage when it comes to the gospel, redemption and salvation.

Here is an example of some of their teachings. In the opening chapter, titled "Jesus Appears to Me," Hagin claims that while he "was in the Spirit" -- just like the apostle John on the Isle of Patmos -- a white cloud enveloped him and he began to speak in tongues. "Then the Lord Jesus Himself appeared to me," says Hagin. "He stood within three feet of me." After what sounded like a casual conversation about such things as finances, ministry, and even current affairs, Jesus told Hagin to get a pencil and a piece of paper. He then instructed him to "Write down: 1,2,3,4." Jesus then allegedly told Hagin "if anybody, anywhere, will take these four steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always receive whatever he wants from Me or from God the Father." That includes whatever you want financially. The formula is simply: "Say it, Do it, Receive it, and Tell it."

1) Step number one is "Say it." "Positive or negative, it is up to the individual. According to what the individual says, that shall he receive."

2) Step number two is "Do it." "Your action defeats you or puts you over. According to your action, you receive or you are kept from receiving."

3) Step number three is "Receive it." We are to plug into the "powerhouse of heaven." "Faith is the plug, praise God! Just plug in."

4). Step number four is "Tell it so others may believe." This final step might be considered the Faith movement's outreach program.

Kenneth Copeland states the faith formula this way: "All it takes is 1) Seeing or visualizing whatever you need, whether physical or financial; 2) Staking your claim on Scripture; and 3) Speaking it into existence" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 80).

Faith teachers like to teach, based upon serious mishandling of passages such as John 10:31-39 and II Peter 1:4, that Christians are "little gods." Copeland says, "Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine nature. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 116). Benny Hinn declares, "God came from heaven, became a man, made man into little gods, went back to heaven as a man" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 382 n. 43). Earl Paulk wrote, "Until we comprehend that we are little gods and we begin to act like little gods, we cannot manifest the kingdom of God" (Satan Unmasked, p. 97).

While man is glorified, God is humiliated in the Faith system. Copeland claims that God is a being who stands about 6'2"-6'3", weighing somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, and has a hand span of 9" across (Christianity in Crisis, p. 121). Copeland also declares "Adam was the copy, looked just like (God). If you stood Adam beside God, they looked just exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and sound exactly alike" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 137).

There is very little teaching, if any, in the WOF about redemption or salvation. In fact they don't really need to teach it because of Four atonement-related errors on the part of the Faith teachers that can be documented:

1) Christ was re-created on the cross from divine to demonic. To put it in Faith vernacular, Jesus took on the very nature of Satan himself.

2) Your redemption was not secured on the cross, but in hell. In fact, many Faith teachers claim that Christ's torture by all the demons of hell was a "ransom" God paid to Satan so that He could get back into a universe from which He had been banished.

3) Jesus was reborn (or born again) in the very pit of hell.

4) Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who (like Christ) are born again can become "incarnated" as well.

Thus, Faith teachers take Christ, the spotless Lamb, and pervert Him into an unholy sacrifice on the cross (Christianity In Crisis, p.153).

But, perhaps the faith moments bread and butter rest with it's "prosperity teachings". This is what attracts many people. Nothing will create more euphoria in the average person than the promise to make them wealthy, and this the Word-Faith leadership knows very well. The Word-Faith teacher's lifestyle is clearly identified by opulence, luxury, riches, and the assurance that all of this can be his followers as well -- if only they apply certain principles.

Robert Tilton is normative. On a Trinity Broadcasting Network program in 1990 he said: "Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 285).

Fred Price on a similar broadcast explains how it works: "If you've got one dollar faith and you ask for a ten-thousand dollar item, it ain't going to work. It won't work. Jesus said, 'According to your [faith],' not according to God's will for you, in His own good time, if it's according to His will, if He can work it into his busy schedule. He said, 'According to your faith, be it unto you'" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 286).

Of course, the road to prosperity somehow always leads to the offering plate of the Word-Faith Movement. Gloria Copeland (Kenneth's wife) pulls no punches in her book God's Will Is Prosperity: "Give $10 and receive $1000; Give $1000 and receive $100,000 … give one house and receive one hundred houses or a house worth one hundred times as much. Give one airplane and receive one hundred times the value of the airplane. … In short, Mark 10:30 is a very good deal" (p. 54).

Does any of this fit with your WOF back ground?

 

[Mitspa]

Quite a mix of teachers there. Some I admire a great deal. Graham, Spurgeon are two. They would strongly disagree with Prince, Hagin, and Wigglesworth. John Wesley was a mixed bag of Arminius and Luther teachings, but for the most part a strong Protestant.

I agree the word of God holds power, as to what type of power I'd like you to comment on, as you see fit. That way we can cut through the "stuff" and "fluff" and get to brass tacks.

We get quite a few WOF folks in here, and still have many. The WOF movement is often the face of Christianity today for the world. I think that's a shame, but some are quite good at presentation; like Prince and Olsteen. I give them credit for interesting and enticing some in the world to an aspect of Christianity, even though I feel they teach pure garbage when it comes to the gospel, redemption and salvation.

Here is an example of some of their teachings. In the opening chapter, titled "Jesus Appears to Me," Hagin claims that while he "was in the Spirit" -- just like the apostle John on the Isle of Patmos -- a white cloud enveloped him and he began to speak in tongues. "Then the Lord Jesus Himself appeared to me," says Hagin. "He stood within three feet of me." After what sounded like a casual conversation about such things as finances, ministry, and even current affairs, Jesus told Hagin to get a pencil and a piece of paper. He then instructed him to "Write down: 1,2,3,4." Jesus then allegedly told Hagin "if anybody, anywhere, will take these four steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always receive whatever he wants from Me or from God the Father." That includes whatever you want financially. The formula is simply: "Say it, Do it, Receive it, and Tell it."

1) Step number one is "Say it." "Positive or negative, it is up to the individual. According to what the individual says, that shall he receive."

2) Step number two is "Do it." "Your action defeats you or puts you over. According to your action, you receive or you are kept from receiving."

3) Step number three is "Receive it." We are to plug into the "powerhouse of heaven." "Faith is the plug, praise God! Just plug in."

4). Step number four is "Tell it so others may believe." This final step might be considered the Faith movement's outreach program.

Kenneth Copeland states the faith formula this way: "All it takes is 1) Seeing or visualizing whatever you need, whether physical or financial; 2) Staking your claim on Scripture; and 3) Speaking it into existence" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 80).

Faith teachers like to teach, based upon serious mishandling of passages such as John 10:31-39 and II Peter 1:4, that Christians are "little gods." Copeland says, "Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine nature. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 116). Benny Hinn declares, "God came from heaven, became a man, made man into little gods, went back to heaven as a man" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 382 n. 43). Earl Paulk wrote, "Until we comprehend that we are little gods and we begin to act like little gods, we cannot manifest the kingdom of God" (Satan Unmasked, p. 97).

While man is glorified, God is humiliated in the Faith system. Copeland claims that God is a being who stands about 6'2"-6'3", weighing somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, and has a hand span of 9" across (Christianity in Crisis, p. 121). Copeland also declares "Adam was the copy, looked just like (God). If you stood Adam beside God, they looked just exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and sound exactly alike" (Christianity in Crisis, p. 137).

There is very little teaching, if any, in the WOF about redemption or salvation. In fact they don't really need to teach it because of Four atonement-related errors on the part of the Faith teachers that can be documented:

1) Christ was re-created on the cross from divine to demonic. To put it in Faith vernacular, Jesus took on the very nature of Satan himself.

2) Your redemption was not secured on the cross, but in hell. In fact, many Faith teachers claim that Christ's torture by all the demons of hell was a "ransom" God paid to Satan so that He could get back into a universe from which He had been banished.

3) Jesus was reborn (or born again) in the very pit of hell.

4) Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who (like Christ) are born again can become "incarnated" as well.

Thus, Faith teachers take Christ, the spotless Lamb, and pervert Him into an unholy sacrifice on the cross (Christianity In Crisis, p.153).

But, perhaps the faith moments bread and butter rest with it's "prosperity teachings". This is what attracts many people. Nothing will create more euphoria in the average person than the promise to make them wealthy, and this the Word-Faith leadership knows very well. The Word-Faith teacher's lifestyle is clearly identified by opulence, luxury, riches, and the assurance that all of this can be his followers as well -- if only they apply certain principles.

Robert Tilton is normative. On a Trinity Broadcasting Network program in 1990 he said: "Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 285).

Fred Price on a similar broadcast explains how it works: "If you've got one dollar faith and you ask for a ten-thousand dollar item, it ain't going to work. It won't work. Jesus said, 'According to your [faith],' not according to God's will for you, in His own good time, if it's according to His will, if He can work it into his busy schedule. He said, 'According to your faith, be it unto you'" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 286).

Of course, the road to prosperity somehow always leads to the offering plate of the Word-Faith Movement. Gloria Copeland (Kenneth's wife) pulls no punches in her book God's Will Is Prosperity: "Give $10 and receive $1000; Give $1000 and receive $100,000 … give one house and receive one hundred houses or a house worth one hundred times as much. Give one airplane and receive one hundred times the value of the airplane. … In short, Mark 10:30 is a very good deal" (p. 54).

Does any of this fit with your WOF back ground?

I find your line of questions quite misleading. and i think C. Spurgeon to be the an early WoF man. Now if you think i am offended because YOU find fault in others? Please dont be offended if your opinion of others has no meaning to me! Now if you seek to restrict my ability to post on this forum?I ask you to treat me according to your own rules? If not, since you seem to be a judge in Gods Kingdom, I am sure you will watch and make sure i dont try to take any money from others
If you want to make an impression on me? Make it with the Word of God. Mens thoughts and opinions have no effect upon one who has been to the Cross and suffered for the Gospel.

Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ’s garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit’s taste. "How sweet are thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God’s Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ’s voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of his sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under his shadow with great delight," and find his fruit sweet to our taste.-C. Spurgeon

Now if you find fault in "my doctrine" please show me "my error" and i will gladly repent!

I do not take the position of defending greedy TV preachers nor powerless pew setters.

 

[Danus]

I find your line of questions quite misleading. and i think C. Spurgeon to be the an early WoF man. Now if you think i am offended because YOU find fault in others? Please dont be offended if your opinion of others has no meaning to me! Now if you seek to restrict my ability to post on this forum?I ask you to treat me according to your own rules? If not, since you seem to be a judge in Gods Kingdom, I am sure you will watch and make sure i dont try to take any money from others
If you want to make an impression on me? Make it with the Word of God. Mens thoughts and opinions have no effect upon one who has been to the Cross and suffered for the Gospel.

Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ’s garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit’s taste. "How sweet are thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God’s Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ’s voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of his sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under his shadow with great delight," and find his fruit sweet to our taste.-C. Spurgeon

Now if you find fault in "my doctrine" please show me "my error" and i will gladly repent!

I do not take the position of defending greedy TV preachers nor powerless pew setters.

If this then this....what's with all the "if's"?

I thought I was direct, clear and to the point. I did not think I was shadowing anything in my post to you, or the questions I asked of you, but since you feel I'm setting a trap or something, let me see if I can be more clear.

1. I'm not restricting you being here. I'm glad you are here, and I want you to be here.

2. This area of the forum is called Apologetics and Theology.

3. You stated your theology. I gave you high fives for doing that, but I wanted more from you about that. So I gave you my understanding of the Word of Faith theology, and I did it with great detail, then I asked if that fits you. So I am asking for clarification. That is about as clear as I can make this.

So, here is my theology about what Christianity is. This is only fair since you shared your thoughts, so here it is in a nut shell.......God requires 100% righteousness. Mankind is not righteous as described in the fall in Genesis. God gave man the law to point out his unrighteousness, and to point to the coming of Christ. No man can keep the law (which is the point due to man's sinful nature). God humbled himself,came down here as us, lived a perfect life as a perfect sacrifice and fulfilled the law. Those who have faith in what He has done for us, and who place that faith in Him, not of themselves, are saved.Christ does for us what we can not do for ourselves. Not everyone accepts that, it is offensive to many who want to be good, think they are good, and can not submit their will to Gods will, but that is Christianity, and those who reject it loose everything. They receive justice. Everyone else receives mercy.

So I am trying to have a conversation with you about what you believe in regard to this, I think it's fair to ask you for details, and I did. I even helped set the foundation for those details giving you an opportunity to reject some of the fundamental teachings of the Word of Faith movement, and you came back with this? Smelling and tasting faith? That's your gospel?

Thank you Mitspa. You have responded to my questions asking for more information. I appreciate that. Keep in mind that posting here in the Apologetics and Theology section is not for light weights. Not saying you are a light weight, but in here we talk about the gospel, what we believe of it and the truth of it. Things like the nature of God and man, salvation, and all the various aspects of Christian theology. So be prepared to give an answer for the HOPE that lies with in you. If your hope is to be healthy, wealthy and prosperous while you spend your time here on earth before you die, you may not enjoy posting that stuff here in the A&T section because someone will call you out.

You can disguise it all you want with scripture, but an honest lie is still a lie. It may not be so clear to just anyone, but please understand that part of my conviction is to make sure it is exposed for what it is to those who may not know the difference. If you want to defend it, you are more than welcome to do so. You don't have to worry about offending me, I am very thick skinned, but I will do my best to be kind to you. After, all you may not fully understand what it is you believe or understand in saying you are of the Word of Faith movement. I fully recognize that and hope that you abandon it. I say this because you did not argue against what I pointed out about the WOF movement. I think you realize that I am pointing out what it truly is, you just don't know how to defend it. May I say that is because there is no defence for it. May I also say that you don't have to defend it.

So here is my final thought here on "The Word of Faith" movement, Please consider this; It's a scam disguised as "Christian" to sucker the gullible and lost out of a few dollars. It makes people feel good, but it does not teach the gospel, redemption, or salvation, and the reason it does not teach those things is because the people who propagate the WOF ministries don't know, and don't care about those things. All they want is your money, and they get it. If you ever want a way out of that, if you ever feel that the WOF is taking you down the wrong path, Christ can set you free of it. There is no shame in his grace, or if you feel that the WOF is Gods truth, then boldly proclaim it. Don't be shy to say, claim it and tell all the wonders of it. You can do that here in this forum in this section, but aside from anyone specifically attacking you personally, there is little that can be done if you are offended by the beliefs of others towards what you say you believe about God and Christ.

 

[Danus]

I find your line of questions quite misleading. and i think C. Spurgeon to be the an early WoF man. Now if you think i am offended because YOU find fault in others? Please dont be offended if your opinion of others has no meaning to me! Now if you seek to restrict my ability to post on this forum?I ask you to treat me according to your own rules? If not, since you seem to be a judge in Gods Kingdom, I am sure you will watch and make sure i dont try to take any money from others
If you want to make an impression on me? Make it with the Word of God. Mens thoughts and opinions have no effect upon one who has been to the Cross and suffered for the Gospel.

Faith, in the Scripture, is spoken of under the emblem of all the senses. It is sight: "Look unto me and be ye saved." It is hearing: "Hear, and your soul shall live." Faith is smelling: "All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia"; "thy name is as ointment poured forth." Faith is spiritual touch. By this faith the woman came behind and touched the hem of Christ’s garment, and by this we handle the things of the good word of life. Faith is equally the spirit’s taste. "How sweet are thy words to my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my lips." "Except a man eat my flesh," saith Christ, "and drink my blood, there is no life in him."

This "taste" is faith in one of its highest operations. One of the first performances of faith is hearing. We hear the voice of God, not with the outward ear alone, but with the inward ear; we hear it as God’s Word, and we believe it to be so; that is the "hearing" of faith. Then our mind looketh upon the truth as it is presented to us; that is to say, we understand it, we perceive its meaning; that is the "seeing" of faith. Next we discover its preciousness; we begin to admire it, and find how fragrant it is; that is faith in its "smell." Then we appropriate the mercies which are prepared for us in Christ; that is faith in its "touch." Hence follow the enjoyments, peace, delight, communion; which are faith in its "taste." Any one of these acts of faith is saving. To hear Christ’s voice as the sure voice of God in the soul will save us; but that which gives true enjoyment is the aspect of faith wherein Christ, by holy taste, is received into us, and made, by inward and spiritual apprehension of his sweetness and preciousness, to be the food of our souls. It is then we sit "under his shadow with great delight," and find his fruit sweet to our taste.-C. Spurgeon

Now if you find fault in "my doctrine" please show me "my error" and i will gladly repent!

I do not take the position of defending greedy TV preachers nor powerless pew setters.

Problem. I'm not finding what you quoted of Charles Spurgeon. Are we talking about Charles Spurgeon the 19th century Baptist preacher? Because if we are I think you have grossly misquoted him. Can you provide a link with proof of your quote? I will also provide what he preached about faith but let me know if we are talking about the same guy first please.

 

[Mitspa]

Problem. I'm not finding what you quoted of Charles Spurgeon. Are we talking about Charles Spurgeon the 19th century Baptist preacher? Because if we are I think you have grossly misquoted him. Can you provide a link with proof of your quote? I will also provide what he preached about faith but let me know if we are talking about the same guy first please.

yea! many of the great men of God were Baptist! at one time or another. I am not interested in putting people in "denom" boxes and then putting a stamp on it, marked "so and so". I could ask you of your background and then go dig up fault with all in that group! That is not how "real men of God" deal with those they disagree with! If you have a fault in my doctrine? please make a "biblical" point and i will consider it. Now as far as the Charles Spurgoen quote, it comes from his daily devotional. Now you seem to just be throwing out stuff to see if anything will stick? If you want a honest discussion of the "Word of God" i will be glad to have that. If you want to continue in what you are doing, i may have better things to do?:yes

 

[Danus]

yea! many of the great men of God were Baptist! at one time or another. I am not interested in putting people in "denom" boxes and then putting a stamp on it, marked "so and so". I could ask you of your background and then go dig up fault with all in that group! That is not how "real men of God" deal with those they disagree with! If you have a fault in my doctrine? please make a "biblical" point and i will consider it. Now as far as the Charles Spurgoen quote, it comes from his daily devotional. Now you seem to just be throwing out stuff to see if anything will stick? If you want a honest discussion of the "Word of God" i will be glad to have that. If you want to continue in what you are doing, i may have better things to do?:yes

Can you just provide a link or something so I can ref it? I will attack your doctrine tonight and make biblical points. I will also help out on CS theology so you will see its not the WOF theology. It's the most reformed Protestant Calvin type theology ever publicly preached.