M
Mitspa
Guest
The name of the devotional is "morning and evening" Daily readings by C. Spurgeon
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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tandemcpl
Member
Danus
Member
Excellent. Thank you Toby. I had found that same site, but you helped narrow it down to that exact devotional. Thank you.
Danus
Member
Mitspa, I'm having a hard time excepting that you are of the Word of Faith movement. You've not convinced me.
I've pointed out some serious egregious biblical and theological errors of the WOF movement. I could list a bunch more. I even mentioned a few of your teachers, and pointed out errors of theology they have stated and taught. Your list of teachers include some great men of God, mixed in with other men that are not fit to call themselves teachers of Gods word at all.
Two stand out Kenneth Hagin and Charles Spurgeon. One of these men taught the gospel to millions and the other taught an honest lie to millions. A lie so bold it was hard to see how anyone could have fell for it, or how some still do. Both of these man are complete opposites.
So I thought we'd look at these two men and their theology and focus on what you have mentioned; Faith and power, or the power of faith. I want to show you how these men did not believe near the same thing, what the bible says, and then I'd like to hear from you your thoughts.
Kenneth Hagin was an influential American Pentecostal preacher. He is often referred to as the "father" (or "granddaddy") of the "Word of Faith" movement.
Hagin believed that the believer through his position in Christ had authority over elements of this world and elements of the satanic world. By faith the believer can exercise the authority of God to change impossible situations into possibilities (Luke 1:371:37) (Mark 11:22-24). Faith, to Hagin, is a matter of belief in God's word which also entails a vocal expression of God's Will or confession thereof. According to Hagin, God has promised to answer believing prayer and respond positively to the believer's exercise of faith.
That sounds great and all, but it's twisted wrong. Word of Faith teaching are decidedly unbiblical. It's a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.
Kenneth Hagin, in turn, studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith movement what it is today; sort of a "mind science" (where "name it and claim it" originated), combined with Pentecostalism, resulting in a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. The result of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in a "force of faith."
It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what the believed Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will, and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god. This is what Hagin believed and taught.
As a movement the theology has strayed further and further from Scripture: it claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
None of this is biblical, not, not one bit. It's just made up, and following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become "prosperous" in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith movement exalts man to god-status and reduces God to man-status. Needless to say, this is a false representation of what Christianity is all about. Obviously, Word of Faith teaching does not take into account what is found in Scripture. Personal revelation, not Scripture, is highly relied upon in order to come up with such absurd beliefs, which is just one more proof of its heretical nature.
On the other hand, Charles Spurgeon was a strong figure in the Reformed Baptist tradition. He was what many would call a Calvinist because he taught the gospel in his day to the reformed teachings of what the bible says.
Spurgeon did not teach that faith was a force we could use for our own gain, or that we are like God. He taught what the bible teaches about faith; that faith is a gift of God to be placed in Christ not in and of ourselves.
He understood that faith was a real belief in God; "If we cannot believe God when circumstances seem be against us, we do not believe Him at all."
He understood that it was a gift from God; "Now, God gives faith, therefore He could not have elected them on account of faith which He foresaw."
He knew the real power of faith and how it produces works; "Faith and works are bound up in the same bundle. He that obeys God trusts God; and he that trusts God obeys God. He that is without faith is without works; and he that is without works is without faith." "Faith is the surest of all sin-killers."
Finally he knew that Faith was not something that we use to just get what we want; "A faith which works not for purification will work for putrefaction. Unless our faith makes us pine after holiness, it is no better than the faith of devils, and perhaps it is not even so good as that. A holy man is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit." - this quote alone is absolutely opposed to what Hagin said of faith and i fact is about like Spurgeon telling Hagin how wrong he is.
You may not labels, but you need to get used to what they are and what they mean. Spurgeon was a great evangelic Protestant who understood Calvin, Luther, Paul Augustine and others, but mostly the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hagin was a sick man who some say denounced his own teachings at one point, realizing that he had made some huge errors.
One thing you did not do, was agree with the whole health, wealth and prosperity teachings of the WOF. I admire that and I am going to give you grace that I think you deserve in saying that I don;t think you truly know what the word of faith movement is about. I think, like many, you have listened to some of the teachings and shows and felt they had some good things to say, but I urge you to read up more on what your listening to when it comes to the WOF. They do not teach salvation, and those that do pervert it to something that is not found in scripture.
So are you claiming to be a WOF follower? Do you believe the teachings of the WOF preachers as I have mentioned here and if so how? I've asked you this but got no real answer. I think you have a mixed bag of theology that is not clear. No one puts Hagin and Spurgeon together on what they taught it's not possible.
Some references used for facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon
http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html
I've pointed out some serious egregious biblical and theological errors of the WOF movement. I could list a bunch more. I even mentioned a few of your teachers, and pointed out errors of theology they have stated and taught. Your list of teachers include some great men of God, mixed in with other men that are not fit to call themselves teachers of Gods word at all.
Two stand out Kenneth Hagin and Charles Spurgeon. One of these men taught the gospel to millions and the other taught an honest lie to millions. A lie so bold it was hard to see how anyone could have fell for it, or how some still do. Both of these man are complete opposites.
So I thought we'd look at these two men and their theology and focus on what you have mentioned; Faith and power, or the power of faith. I want to show you how these men did not believe near the same thing, what the bible says, and then I'd like to hear from you your thoughts.
Kenneth Hagin was an influential American Pentecostal preacher. He is often referred to as the "father" (or "granddaddy") of the "Word of Faith" movement.
Hagin believed that the believer through his position in Christ had authority over elements of this world and elements of the satanic world. By faith the believer can exercise the authority of God to change impossible situations into possibilities (Luke 1:371:37) (Mark 11:22-24). Faith, to Hagin, is a matter of belief in God's word which also entails a vocal expression of God's Will or confession thereof. According to Hagin, God has promised to answer believing prayer and respond positively to the believer's exercise of faith.
That sounds great and all, but it's twisted wrong. Word of Faith teaching are decidedly unbiblical. It's a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.
Kenneth Hagin, in turn, studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith movement what it is today; sort of a "mind science" (where "name it and claim it" originated), combined with Pentecostalism, resulting in a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. The result of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in a "force of faith."
It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what the believed Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will, and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god. This is what Hagin believed and taught.
As a movement the theology has strayed further and further from Scripture: it claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.
None of this is biblical, not, not one bit. It's just made up, and following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become "prosperous" in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith movement exalts man to god-status and reduces God to man-status. Needless to say, this is a false representation of what Christianity is all about. Obviously, Word of Faith teaching does not take into account what is found in Scripture. Personal revelation, not Scripture, is highly relied upon in order to come up with such absurd beliefs, which is just one more proof of its heretical nature.
On the other hand, Charles Spurgeon was a strong figure in the Reformed Baptist tradition. He was what many would call a Calvinist because he taught the gospel in his day to the reformed teachings of what the bible says.
Spurgeon did not teach that faith was a force we could use for our own gain, or that we are like God. He taught what the bible teaches about faith; that faith is a gift of God to be placed in Christ not in and of ourselves.
He understood that faith was a real belief in God; "If we cannot believe God when circumstances seem be against us, we do not believe Him at all."
He understood that it was a gift from God; "Now, God gives faith, therefore He could not have elected them on account of faith which He foresaw."
He knew the real power of faith and how it produces works; "Faith and works are bound up in the same bundle. He that obeys God trusts God; and he that trusts God obeys God. He that is without faith is without works; and he that is without works is without faith." "Faith is the surest of all sin-killers."
Finally he knew that Faith was not something that we use to just get what we want; "A faith which works not for purification will work for putrefaction. Unless our faith makes us pine after holiness, it is no better than the faith of devils, and perhaps it is not even so good as that. A holy man is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit." - this quote alone is absolutely opposed to what Hagin said of faith and i fact is about like Spurgeon telling Hagin how wrong he is.
You may not labels, but you need to get used to what they are and what they mean. Spurgeon was a great evangelic Protestant who understood Calvin, Luther, Paul Augustine and others, but mostly the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hagin was a sick man who some say denounced his own teachings at one point, realizing that he had made some huge errors.
One thing you did not do, was agree with the whole health, wealth and prosperity teachings of the WOF. I admire that and I am going to give you grace that I think you deserve in saying that I don;t think you truly know what the word of faith movement is about. I think, like many, you have listened to some of the teachings and shows and felt they had some good things to say, but I urge you to read up more on what your listening to when it comes to the WOF. They do not teach salvation, and those that do pervert it to something that is not found in scripture.
So are you claiming to be a WOF follower? Do you believe the teachings of the WOF preachers as I have mentioned here and if so how? I've asked you this but got no real answer. I think you have a mixed bag of theology that is not clear. No one puts Hagin and Spurgeon together on what they taught it's not possible.
Some references used for facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon
http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html
M
Mitspa
Guest
I am sorry i dont care about what you think of other people? I care about The living Word of God! Now what do you want from me? You dont like something or someone and i am supposed to deny the Word of God? I have studied the teachings of all those "I" mentioned and many more. None of them claimed to have all knowledge of all things. And if you dislike K. Hagin? Dont read or study his works. But you have shown no knowledge of scripture, just the ability to back-bit and speak evil of others. Now again if you have a "biblical" issue with somthing "i" have posted? I will be glad to discuss that when you are ready.
Danus
Member
Well this is your thread titled "The Word of Faith". This is the Apologetic and Theology section of this forum. You claim to follow the word of faith as in the movement, yet you have not defended it. I invited you to speak on it. I laid out what it is, and you have ignored it. Smart move on your part I think.
I hope you stick with the Spurgeon devotional. That's good stuff. take care.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Thank You, and i did state that i came from that background. That may have been a error on my part? For my desire is to focus on the Word and the power of simple faith in the Word of God. In my opinion God is using many teachings from many of the past "that really knew and loved Him" to bring understanding to His Church. I would say many call me a "calvinist"? I have never studied his teachings, but he must of had much correct! I believe the current "Grace Movement" led by Joseph Prince and Andrew Wommack, draws much from Calvin ? I might descibe myself as a Holy Spirit filled Calvinist?:eeeekkk
Anyway, i do hope we can turn to the" Living Word" and look at where God has the victory, the things above, heavenly things! Not to things below, and look at mans failure?
Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
let us consider this "word of faith"
Danus
Member
Thank You, and i did state that i came from that background. That may have been a error on my part? For my desire is to focus on the Word and the power of simple faith in the Word of God. In my opinion God is using many teachings from many of the past "that really knew and loved Him" to bring understanding to His Church. I would say many call me a "calvinist"? I have never studied his teachings, but he must of had much correct! I believe the current "Grace Movement" led by Joseph Prince and Andrew Wommack, draws much from Calvin ? I might descibe myself as a Holy Spirit filled Calvinist?:eeeekkk
Anyway, i do hope we can turn to the" Living Word" and look at where God has the victory, the things above, heavenly things! Not to things below, and look at mans failure?
Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
let us consider this "word of faith"
I'd like to say that you seem to appreciate the teachings of the gospel, and that you have respect for those teachings that where born out of the reformation (circa 1500)
I understand that you may have started your walk in the faith movement. This is not uncommon today and not totally a bad thing. I have described the foundation of that movement, and while I know I've not said anything good about it, it's because of the massive amount of heresy to the gospel many of it's leaders and teachers have propagated. It is a serious matter in terms of stumbling blocks, but one that I think each individual can deal with just by reading the bible.
Let's explore an idea about our society. I assume you live in the US, or a developed western nation. We don't have to look far to agree that we live in a society that is based on convenience. We have convenience stores, fast food with drive through, self service and the list goes on. Part of that spills over into information. We have 24/hr news, smart phones, the web, TV and a host of media bombarding us and seeking our attention mostly for a dollar. Beyond that dollar our world cares less and less. People and institutions care about others generally up to the point that others might offer them something. Such is the nature of man in this fallen world. It's true today, as much as it was true in times past. Power, control, and pleasure are the pursuits of sinful man. That is our nature, and so we can fall into this even if we are seeking something more, something spiritual. And sometimes it can be difficult to know the difference.
However, I believe the power of the spirit of God effects those who will be effected, called, saved, to know the difference, and to traverse this fallen world ever more each day as we long for, and seek His grace, His mercy, His Love and guidance to do so in our lives. This is not to say that such growth comes immediately to those who have faith, but rather we are edified. tested and fit to grow stronger in the faith that God has given. That is the power of faith.
We live in a time where people are largely biblically illiterate in part for their lack knowing how to read the bible, but I think largely more so from their own pure laziness to do so. Many people want it told to them. They want the understanding of God wrapped in a sermon with a few verses thrown in, or a clever book that speaks to their life, or an ideology that works from their own desire. Fast theologies, clever ideas, and feel good sayings to live by are just enough for many who rather get on with the game then spend a little time with God in a relationship.
Why do I say this? Because we live in a world that offers that, and people eat it up. We see it over and over again through history, the church institutionalizing itself for the masses and making plenty of money on the side; it's exactly what happened to the church slowly over time and leading up to a revolution of the reformation in the 1500's, when God used his people to set the gospel free in the hands of those he wanted to have it, not under the control of those he made it what they wanted to make it. I think we are on the cusp of that very thing again in many respects, but the truth always rises. It's never been put down, although many have tried.
We can talk about John Calvin if you like. I'm pretty well schooled on his teachings. It is in line with others from the reformation, like Luther, and other well known theologians Newton, Edwards, and Spurgeon, each have different ways of saying the same thing, basically just principals of the gospel, salvation, the nature of God, man and such. Same things Paul spoke of.
However, Calvin is probably the most hated. He is arguably the most brilliant. he wrote quite a bit. He held a high philosophical view of scripture that many don't grasp, don't want to think about and possibly can't understand, however what he wrote also directly confronts the teachings of the institutionalized church in his time and still much today. The RCC, and many Protestant Armenian teachings (which is a mix of RCC and the gospel) hate Calvin, and will attack it at the drop of a hat. They will often label other things as Calvin when they are not, and ultimately end up fighting among themselves in a debate. But, since you seem to appreciate Calvin, I'd like to share some basic teaches of Calvin's theology with you that you may not know.
Calvin developed an acrostic that he termed TULIP to help teach the gospel of salvation. This focuses on salvation, the nature of God and man. This is something Charles Spurgeon would have been very familiar with and that he also taught in his many sermons. Here are the points.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
M
Mitspa
Guest
I agree with almost all that you have stated. I also believe in the" Word of patience" (Rev 3:10 ) I know the work of patience (James 1:3-4), I know many stir-up the lust of the flesh in their preaching. I reject it all! But i also know that God when He moves, He often moves " suddenly"
Act 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
I have been tested by the Word of patience, and i have found all the Word of God to be true! Although i have not seen manifest the full measure of the Word! I have planted my mustard seed of faith in His Garden of Promise. And He is faithful that promised! God Bless and thank you for your defense of the doctrines of salvation. Which are firm and true!
M
Mitspa
Guest
It seems satan has more faith in Gods word than most Christians, "For a house divided can not stand"! I believe "satans device" as mentioned by Paul, is clearly to cause division in the Church.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I believe the Word itself, held in sincere faith, has the power to heal and restore the Church back to unity of the One Spirit.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I believe the Word itself, held in sincere faith, has the power to heal and restore the Church back to unity of the One Spirit.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
When we affirm that the Word of God cannot be broken, we affirm that the Word and God are One, when we trust in the Word we are trusting in God the Father.
The picture of the "mustard seed" is a plant that the Jews would not allow to grow in their kosher gardens. A picture of law and grace, and how the law is not of faith. The mustard seed must be planted outside of the law, it is planted in the Promise, Gods garden. Now when one has put their "little faith" in Him who is Faithful, its no longer a matter of our great faith, but His faithfulness.
When we affirm that the Word of God cannot be broken, we affirm that the Word and God are One, when we trust in the Word we are trusting in God the Father.
The picture of the "mustard seed" is a plant that the Jews would not allow to grow in their kosher gardens. A picture of law and grace, and how the law is not of faith. The mustard seed must be planted outside of the law, it is planted in the Promise, Gods garden. Now when one has put their "little faith" in Him who is Faithful, its no longer a matter of our great faith, but His faithfulness.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Many do not understand that "faith works by love". Our compassion for others demands us to press into the higher realms of faith, for it is good and acceptable religion to feed the poor and hurting. It is a touch from the "living Christ" that many need, more than food.
Mat 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Many do not understand that "faith works by love". Our compassion for others demands us to press into the higher realms of faith, for it is good and acceptable religion to feed the poor and hurting. It is a touch from the "living Christ" that many need, more than food.
Mat 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
smaller
Member
That would all depend on where any given believer gravitates to and settles in. Just as in the O.T. there were major and minor camps of tribes and leaders.
This still exists today in the spiritual sense/understandings.
I spent many years in the various WOF camps. Today I largely discount them with a nod to some aspects of same as I would to just about any particular 'camp' 'sect' setting. Everyone is under a general umbrella and even that to varying degrees.
I have an appreciation of Calvin. But what was there for Calvin to see and come to grips with was in fact there to come to grips with prior to him seeing same just as it was for Luther or even all of the early church fathers prior to them.
My separation from the WOF camps came over the course of time, studies and observations trying to 'remedy' various fault lines that can be seen in any particular doctrinal slant. The fulcrum for me came exactly on the rift between OSAS and the perpetual obedience camps. L. Sperry Chafer's excellent writings on grace and OSAS put me solidly in that camp and I have not left. Even though I could fault both Calvin and Reformed quite easily. The general understanding is quite solid.
My personal favorite determinist scholar is Karl Barth. A most brilliant theological thinker, primarily because he questioned everything and did so deeply, as any good student should do. And this is perhaps a product of our times.
There are factually Mack Truck sized holes in Calvin's positions which are easily delineated from the text. It's much more interesting than what Calvin saw.
I believe every point of the TULIP can stand but not in the way Calvin envisioned. Calvin opened up some ground for sure. But the positions do have many faults in the way of his understandings. Even at these boards for example you find varying degrees of adherents. 4 pointers, hypers, etc etc. And there are such divisions because there are factually flaws to be seen in the points.
How they are or can be remedied is another matter for any who engage therein. There are many interesting scriptural counters to each point that are not easily brushed away unless one just wants to camp there on the frailties.
enjoy!
smaller
Danus
Member
Well, When I mention Truth as always rising up, I guess what I mean is that truth stands alone regardless. Truth is truth, regardless of what anyone says of it.
I mention Calvin, seizing on Mitspa's appreciation of Charles Spurgeon. Spurgeon was a follower of John Calvin's understandings, if you will, of the doctrines of Grace.
As for "holes" in Calvin's views, that really depends on one's understanding of Calvin's views. His view if often more misunderstood than understood, and it's easy to say there are holes in something when it is not understood.
Ultimately we should just be talking about the gospel and scripture and letting it be our own view.... unfortunately when I do that I get labeled a Calvinist.
. That's OK though I don't mind. The label can be good when used in the right way, but then so is Armenian. These are often just ways to place theology in one of the two categories of how people often think of it. These views are not particularly unique to either two men. Many people had very similar views on their own. As for the WOF, as a movement, well that can mean a lot of things depending on the meaning people want to pour into the phrase, but traditionally it is, as an institutional movement, what has been described in it's worse terms. However, I think we are seeing a much different WOF today in some like Joel Olsteen, and Fred Prince. Much more toned down.
M
Mitspa
Guest
That would be "Joseph Prince" right?Well, When I mention Truth as always rising up, I guess what I mean is that truth stands alone regardless. Truth is truth, regardless of what anyone says of it.
I mention Calvin, seizing on Mitspa's appreciation of Charles Spurgeon. Spurgeon was a follower of John Calvin's understandings, if you will, of the doctrines of Grace.
As for "holes" in Calvin's views, that really depends on one's understanding of Calvin's views. His view if often more misunderstood than understood, and it's easy to say there are holes in something when it is not understood.
Ultimately we should just be talking about the gospel and scripture and letting it be our own view.... unfortunately when I do that I get labeled a Calvinist.
As for the WOF, as a movement, well that can mean a lot of things depending on the meaning people want to pour into the phrase, but traditionally it is, as an institutional movement, what has been described in it's worse terms. However, I think we are seeing a much different WOF today in some like Joel Olsteen, and Fred Prince. Much more toned down.
Danus
Member
smaller
Member
I am both thoroughly convinced that Calvin's tulips are legit. But equally convinced that they have flaws.
One reason I 'might' say that is Divine Sovereignty can not logically be captured by entities (us) who are less that thee Divine Sovereign Himself.
dig?
Believers who take up Divine Sovereignty and then proclaim that their understandings are same are in fact arguing against what they think they are upholding.
They insert their understandings as the definitive of Divine Sovereignty.
I would only term that effort an obvious exercise in logically fallacy.
Ultimately we should just be talking about the gospel and scripture and letting it be our own view.... unfortunately when I do that I get labeled a Calvinist.
Calvin opened some understandings. Can we say he, J. Calvin opened every door to everything? No. Calvin or anyone else by being automatically relegated to 'less' than Thee Divine Sovereign can not possibly say their own limited sights are Thee Sight without committing a basic logic gaffe.
And I would agree of course. I can not discount the value of some choice factors. Where I would part from either camp is on the ground of fact that there are in fact 3 operational wills 'in man' in this present environ.
God
the adversary(s)
the person
Calvinism is severely lacking on the middle section above. And so does the freewill camp, except they miss severely on count one above as well, entirely needing to discount both 1 and 2 above in order to arrive at 'only themselves' as thee chooser will. I find it rather simplistic.
It's much more interesting when all the parties are on the table.
Fred Prince is a singer. Fred Price is a charismatic preacher....
I can't stomach the charismactic camps much anymore. But that's just picky me along with the mix of 1 and 2 above...
Whenever an individual believer understands that the greatest desire is to seek a Perfect Reflection it doesn't take long to realize none of us currently have one.
But we do have that mutual hope, or at least I hope...
An imperfect reflection means what?
Ah ha! There is no 'perfect' theology....yet.
s
Danus
Member
I am both thoroughly convinced that Calvin's tulips are legit. But equally convinced that they have flaws.
One reason I 'might' say that is Divine Sovereignty can not logically be captured by entities (us) who are less that thee Divine Sovereign Himself.
dig?
Believers who take up Divine Sovereignty and then proclaim that their understandings are same are in fact arguing against what they think they are upholding.
They insert their understandings as the definitive of Divine Sovereignty.
I would only term that effort an obvious exercise in logically fallacy.
Calvin opened some understandings. Can we say he, J. Calvin opened every door to everything? No. Calvin or anyone else by being automatically relegated to 'less' than Thee Divine Sovereign can not possibly say their own limited sights are Thee Sight without committing a basic logic gaffe.
And I would agree of course. I can not discount the value of some choice factors. Where I would part from either camp is on the ground of fact that there are in fact 3 operational wills 'in man' in this present environ.
God
the adversary(s)
the person
Calvinism is severely lacking on the middle section above. And so does the freewill camp, except they miss severely on count one above as well, entirely needing to discount both 1 and 2 above in order to arrive at 'only themselves' as thee chooser will. I find it rather simplistic.
It's much more interesting when all the parties are on the table.
Fred Prince is a singer. Fred Price is a charismatic preacher....
I can't stomach the charismactic camps much anymore. But that's just picky me along with the mix of 1 and 2 above...
Whenever an individual believer understands that the greatest desire is to seek a Perfect Reflection it doesn't take long to realize none of us currently have one.
But we do have that mutual hope, or at least I hope...
An imperfect reflection means what?
Ah ha! There is no 'perfect' theology....yet.
s
Very good.
...I don't know of Fred Prince the singer. That's funny. I'm pretty much out of step with popular culture. The only thing I know of Joseph Prince is from my brother in law who asked me to evaluate him. Seems he was into watching his show. At the time I had not heard of him, but I watched and researched for about three months and determined he was WOF based on his message.
One thing more I'd like to point out about Calvin, and I agree with your notion that no one can fully fathom the sovereignty of God. However, Calvin's TULIP doctrine only really attempts to deal with Grace and understanding it on a human level based on the logical points found in the gospel. Is it sound? Yes I think it is very. But is it complete? No. I don't think it can be for the reasons you mention and I agreed.
The issue between Calvin and Arminius is where man stands in his own salvation. Where Calvin eliminates mans culpability almost entirely, Arminius makes man totally culpable.
I think it's fair to say that we can not eliminate man from salvation, but we surely can not hold him fully responsible since God has already said he is incapable. Both views settle a problem we have with salvation, but neither view answers the complete question. although I think Calvin is far further along than Arminius was, there is room for both.
M
Mitspa
Guest
We are born-again by faith in the Word of God!
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
"The simplicity of Christ" "as ye have received Him so walk ye in Him"
Many may think the growth in Christ is about knowing "doctrine"?
True growth is about "faith in His Word"
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
"The simplicity of Christ" "as ye have received Him so walk ye in Him"
Many may think the growth in Christ is about knowing "doctrine"?
True growth is about "faith in His Word"
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
smaller
Member
Never heard of J. Prince. The WOF camps are like most. They tend to stretch and diversify in order to gain adherents. Just give 'em a reason to split...:eeeekkk
That is a well reasoned assessment imho.
Yes, the mix is vastly more interesting than what either man saw. I think their divisions were available to each of them to see, but not complete contemplations by any means.
There always remains more light until we have Perfect sight. I don't expect to have that in this present environ, but more light is pleasant to the heart and soul. And sometimes even uncomfortable when it means to have to move or change ones views to upgrade the wetware...
s