Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[JLB]

The real question comes to the believer, when they see whether or not their own sin is "of the devil." Then we know a liar from a truth teller. 1 John 3:8.

Again, you are not quoting what the scripture says, but what your opinion is, and adding the scripture reference to your opinion.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7-8

The person himself who practices sins, is acting just like the devil, because the devil himself also sins, and has done so from the beginning.

What you are trying to convince people, is that "sin" within a person's flesh is actually the devil, who is doing the sinning and not the person themselves.

...for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

James shows us in detail how a person is drawn into sin, and eventually eternal death.

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:12-15

• each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
• when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
  
• when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Note that the scripture teaches us our [sinful] desire, once "conceived" gives birth, or origin, or beginning to sin; which is the transgression of God's Law.

Sin has it's beginning, when when conceived from an evil desire.

Our desire does not give birth or origin to the devil.

Our evil desire gives birth or origin to sin; the act of disobeying God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

IF you are claiming the sin indwelling Paul's flesh was legal, obedient, faithful or non-existing I'd suggest none of that exists in the scriptures.

Why do you continue to put words in my mouth, that I have not said?

Here is exactly what I said.

I did not say the sin indwelling Paul's flesh was obedient,legal, obedient, faithful or non-existing ; those are your words.

Read what I posted as plain as day, and stop making up lies about what I said.


In the next breath Paul gives us the answer to the sin that dwells in our flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


Which is why we are told: to "put to death" the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.

Which is why we are told: not to live according according to the flesh.

Therein the choice for the believer is revealed.

• Live according to the flesh.

or

• Put to death the deeds of the flesh, and be led by the Spirit.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


Did you know we have a choice to serve the desires of the flesh, or serve the desires of the Spirit?


...for it is God who works in you both to will [desire] and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13


Choosing to yield to the working of God within, that we may fulfill the desires of God's Spirit, is the path to victory.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Again, you are not quoting what the scripture says, but what your opinion is, and adding the scripture reference to your opinion.

1 John 3:8 is no opinion, but fact. You might think that by citing sins instead of sin it makes some kind of a massive difference. It doesn't change a thing. Why you think so and then use that to deny the connection of sin to the devil is the only funny part. But we've played that game before, you and I. No sense rerunning where you stand. Apparently, in your mind, your sin is an exception to that rule, that is, if you have any?

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

The person himself who practices sins, is acting just like the devil, because the

Sorry, I don't see the word practices anywhere in 1 John 3:8's statement of fact.

You are welcome to claim that is not the case. I won't be buying terms to the contrary of the fact however.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Still reading this bible study. But before I go (because I'll have to finish reading the rest later), there's an idea I heard awhile ago concerning the parable of the 4 soils. The seed is the word of God. It's God's message. But the soil could be argued as the parts of ourselves that accept or reject what's in the word. It can also be argued the the soil is symbolic of the world as a population as a whole. Often I think the second interptation is the one that is largely the interptation seen. And with that perspective we see one type of people who are unsaved; two types of people who fall away for different reasons; and one type that is faithful and true.

There's a few variations to this perspective, (such as those who fall away are still saved because they accepted Jesus at one time or that we can lose our salvation and need to guard it; another is the rewards of being among the faithful having different crop sizes) but that's the basic foundation of it is that the world as a whole is divided up in the four soils.

The other perspective I think is one that is very close to your theological views, Smaller. It seems to go in line with something I've heard you say before to apply all of the scripture to ourselves. But this other perspective that there are parts of the word that is accepted and produces a great crop; parts of the word that is choked out; parts of the word that are unnourished; and parts of the word that are whole heartily rejected, snatched away by Satan.

If there is merrit to the perspective that each soil is in us then there is merrit for continued study of the Word, so that the seed has more chance to get through to us while God and the Holy Spirit work out our hard paths, our rocks, and our weeds. In the same way it is also important to spread the word, so that others have the same chance to recieve God's message and during their life time recieve it.

On the other hand if the other perspective has merrit. Then there's consideration of what God does in our lives and to the soils that represent the world. Causing sorrow, pain and hardships have been the trade marks of Isreal's history before they returned to God, and turned away from their sins. Simularily, I've heard many testomies of people being broken before they looked for God. There is also the the things that act like weeds and rocks that keep us from growing. Those are harder for me to identify, but I'm sure they are there and that God acts on them as well. If this perspective has merit then not just spreading the word but acting on it and obeying it's teachings are a key function of helping the soil around us, as well as our own soil to stay true.

Sorry to add this bit before finishing the thread. But just wanted to share it and hope it holds some merrit with the subject of this biblestudy.

 

[smaller]

Therein the choice for the believer is revealed.

You SEEM to think that you can "CHOOSE" your way out of having sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us. And you think you can chose and even claim that "NO MORE I" doesn't do what it does do, according to Paul in Romans 7:15 & 19.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Here's a news fact for you. NO CHOICE removes those facts.

Now, go start your own Bible study thread if you want to prove you can "choose your way" into sinlessness.

I'm not into deceptions.

 

[smaller]

Still reading this bible study. But before I go (because I'll have to finish reading the rest later), there's an idea I heard awhile ago concerning the parable of the 4 soils. The seed is the word of God. It's God's message. But the soil could be argued as the parts of ourselves that accept or reject what's in the word.

Every Word of God applies to all of us. Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 is the rule in play.

The point of the opener of the parable in Mark 4 is to show that Satan, the god of this world, IS in the minds/hearts of mankind. And yes, even believers, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8.

Jesus, even though He spoke to Peter, He was actually addressing Satan. Matt. 16:23. That's the same principle as Mark 4:15. Two parties. One location, Peter.

It can also be argued the the soil is symbolic of the world as a population as a whole. Often I think the second interptation is the one that is largely the interptation seen. And with that perspective we see one type of people who are unsaved; two types of people who fall away for different reasons; and one type that is faithful and true.

IF we followed the courses of the parables we'll see that we hit every point, start to finish. In no case is the SEED ever defeated, because THAT SEED is Jesus.

And the ground "isn't saved." What comes from the end of the parable is THE SEED multiplied and dominant.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

NONE of the conditions encountered DEFEAT the Word of God. Which is the general point. And contrary to "many" sights that try to claim otherwise.

The other perspective I think is one that is very close to your theological views, Smaller. It seems to go in line with something I've heard you say before to apply all of the scripture to ourselves. But this other perspective that there are parts of the word that is accepted and produces a great crop; parts of the word that is choked out; parts of the word that are unnourished; and parts of the word that are whole heartily rejected, snatched away by Satan.

The only Produce that is getting through, to the end, is HIM. The notions that it is any of us, respectively, is false. There is not going to be millions of Jesus' in heaven, but One.

If there is merrit to the perspective that each soil is in us then there is merrit for continued study of the Word, so that the seed has more chance to get through to us while God and the Holy Spirit work out our hard paths, our rocks, and our weeds. In the same way it is also important to spread the word, so that others have the same chance to recieve God's message and during their life time recieve it.

On the other hand if the other perspective has merrit. Then there's consideration of what God does in our lives and to the soils that represent the world. Causing sorrow, pain and hardships have been the trade marks of Isreal's history before they returned to God, and turned away from their sins. Simularily, I've heard many testomies of people being broken before they looked for God. There is also the the things that act like weeds and rocks that keep us from growing. Those are harder for me to identify, but I'm sure they are there and that God acts on them as well. If this perspective has merit then not just spreading the word but acting on it and obeying it's teachings are a key function of helping the soil around us, as well as our own soil to stay true.

Sorry to add this bit before finishing the thread. But just wanted to share it and hope it holds some merrit with the subject of this biblestudy.

Isaiah 63:9
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

 

[reba]

Tempers are flaring lets slow down,,,,
remember good ol TOS 2.4
Do not reply to the post in this thread

 

[Chopper]

Boy do I hear you on that one. I had my first in depth experiences with this matter many long years back in charismania. A lot of their teachings revolve around speaking what you want, believing in faith you have it, NOT saying anything contrary and NOT shooting yourself in the foot with your mouth.

So, I'd try soooo hard to hit all these marks. And the hardest mark to hit was NOT saying anything adverse about others or anything negative. I'd literally have my tongue in severe lockdown mode, considering well before ever opening my mouth. I still have a tendency to purse my lips together from time to time to this day, because I practiced "guarding my tongue" for so many years, not allowing it out of it's cage. Even when my lips are not pursed, my teeth/upper lower jaws make a nice cage as well.

What I discovered in that forray was just how hard that really is. To keep that little thing in check. I could have a great and successful day at it, and then BAM, right out of nowhere some odd setup or circumstance or stray thought would cause something (that would probably be completely inconsequential to others but was HUGE in my own mind) to just blurt out. Even just a word or two, negative or adverse to another.

Eventually I realized that James' statement of fact here is and will remain a fact:

James 3:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

This fact eventually put me in my place. I had to look deeper. The problem was obviously in my mind, literally built in where I could not change it. And yes, that is the case.

Romans 11:32 tells us that God Himself bound all to disobedience. It's a fact. This fact doesn't change after belief. And yes, we all really do have "evil present" with us. It took many years to learn these hard facts. And even longer to unwind me from my lying hypocrisy, trying vainly to deny these were facts. Then, in that lying hypocrisy, I saw how utterly sinful and deceptive indwelling sin and evil present can be to enslave a believer.

From there it became much easier to "HEAR and SEE" the scriptures, because I was no longer LYING and DECEIVING myself. It was a big leg up on the matters. I saw that most if not all the prophets saw the same things above about themselves.


This particular problem of indwelling sin is beyond any dispute, the most difficult for most men to deal with. We excuse this reality in every way possible, but yes, it is a reality that speaks to everything in this thread. I found, like Job, that the only way I could NOT have a lust problem is not to look. BUT the instant I look, almost invariably, the attacks will come. Call it what you will, it is surely indwelling sin/evil present in action. And knowing this NOW, as I have known for awhile, it is easier to understand and DENY when it happens, because I know it's "NO MORE I" that is doing it. Romans 7:17 & 20.

I'm soooo not interested in being the slave boy of "NO MORE I." "NO MORE I" is in fact Satan in operations.

Good one my friend. That's where the rubber meets the road.

 

[JLB]

You SEEM to think that you can "CHOOSE" your way out of having sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us. And you think you can chose and even claim that "NO MORE I" doesn't do what it does do, according to Paul in Romans 7:15 & 19.

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Here's a news fact for you. NO CHOICE removes those facts.

Now, go start your own Bible study thread if you want to prove you can "choose your way" into sinlessness.

I'm not into deceptions.

The choice is not in having the law of sin that is in our flesh, or not, but rather in how we choose to live; according to the inward man or according to the flesh.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

• The choice each believer has in how to deal with the sinful desires that are in our flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The choice each believer is faced with is to:

• live according to the sinful desires of the flesh, by gratifying it's lustful cravings.

or

• put to death the sinful deeds that the body desires to do, and live according to the desires of the Spirit within.

Paul warns the Church in Galatia -

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• The choice we have is to live our lives according to the flesh or according to the Spirit.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• Believers that live a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• We are told by John, not to be deceived: those who practice righteousness are righteous.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Eventually I realized that James' statement of fact here is and will remain a fact:

James 3:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

This fact eventually put me in my place. I had to look deeper. The problem was obviously in my mind, literally built in where I could not change it. And yes, that is the case.

8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh. James 3:8-10

The problem was obviously in my mind, literally built in where I could not change it.

• I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

It's your flesh that contains the law of sin, not your mind.
The flesh wars against the law of our mind.


22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23


If you are having trouble with your mind, then try meditating of God's word, and worshiping the Lord.

Renewing our mind with God's word, and setting our mind on things above are the key to victory.




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Boy this has been a good series. Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. So, what or who is sin in me? Satan (he's the who) cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts

See? I've been paying attention to every post of yours. I believe what you have presented is Revelation Truth.

 

[smaller]

The choice is not in having the law of sin that is in our flesh, or not, but rather in how we choose to live; according to the inward man or according to the flesh.

You don't seem to be able to get a firm handle on this subject matter JLB.

THERE IS NO CHOICE. Indwelling sin and evil present do what they do and are a hard line fact no matter WHAT choices are made. Romans 7:17-21.

Obviously some can't even choose to believe these hard facts of scripture and have no choice but to DENY these facts. That's how DECEPTIVE these workings are.

I don't expect too many to even understand. I expect even fewer to understand and acknowledge that indwelling sin and evil present are a direct result of the spirit of disobedience, that is, THE DEVIL. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8, 2 Cor. 12:7.

I'd dare say that 100% of pew sitters and probably a high 90's percentage of active sincere believers are simply ignorant of these matters. It's just not popular information.

But it IS truthful.

 

[smaller]

Boy this has been a good series. Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. So, what or who is sin in me? Satan (he's the who) cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts

See? I've been paying attention to every post of yours. I believe what you have presented is Revelation Truth.

It does change the way we might read the scriptures.

FOR EXAMPLE, knowing the "present activity" is of NO MORE I, scriptures decry this working. So likewise do we. It is much easier to get a leg up on the matters when we recognize it's a FOREIGN INTRUSION.

LIKEwise, we condemn such thoughts, words and deeds, and alienate ourselves from these workings, even though we have them to contend with.

And, likewise, knowing these things are demonic/satanic in origin, we can also trot out the damnation scriptures to REMIND the behind the scenes "workers of iniquity" what is in store for them, even though they also know it. This is a very effective tool.

The HOPE OF THE GOSPEL is to some day be RID and GONE with them.

And this is exactly what Jesus Speaks of in Matt. 25's separation of sheep from goats.

THEY are the goats.


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Even though it is quite plain that the devil and his messengers are part of the account of Matt. 25's separation of sheep and goats

THEIR ROLE in these matters is BLINDED to us and stolen from us, by THEM.

 

[smaller]

It's your flesh that contains the law of sin, not your mind.
The flesh wars against the law of our mind.

Call the facts what you will JLB. The fact is Paul had every manner of concupiscent thoughts, did evil and did things he hated, and described that activity as that of NO MORE I. All from Romans 7, of course.

Now believers can claim whatever they want about these things not happening with themselves. The Apostle however set THE MARKS OF TRUTHFULNESS.

But when believers DON'T hit those same marks, ADMIT/CONFESS they do the same, they are NOT telling the truth and are in fact lying in addition to being hypocrites.

And, by being lying hypocrites indwelling sin and evil present has captured them to an even WORSE degree than before. I don't think too many who are thusly trapped escape in this present life. I think they'll still be saved, but lying hypocrites are generally not very nice people.

 

[smaller]

The choice

JLB

You keep claiming there is a choice. No, there isn't a choice.

The Spirit is and remains contrary to and against the flesh regardless of any choices made, and IS SO because of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us, to which the SPIRIT will never agree.

Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17.

No one can "choose themselves" out of these facts.

 

[childeye]

I just found this thread. I commend smaller and all participants for an excellent study in the contrary sources of moral/immoral impetus at work in mankind. I would like to contribute.

As I see it, the complexity of the issue is exacerbated by the imprecise and limited capabilities of our language to articulate it. Words have two meanings both good and evil, depending upon two images of God/god. How we define the term God according to His Nature, defines our terms. We then project our imagery of God/god in our conversation. With this in mind, Imagine how many terms fall under the umbrella of good and evil in the moral/immoral purview.

For example, the term Holy means that it is perfect as is, and that nothing can be added nor taken away so as to improve upon it. This necessarily means that the powers that are built upon unfaith, have available two diametrically opposed semantically driven courses through which to propagate. The art of sophistry is based upon this occurrence.

Please notice that there are two types of evil available when questioning Holiness. One is to add to God and the other is to take away from God. Consequently in the stance of evil that has taken something away so as to improve upon god in unfaith, it becomes good to add back to God what was taken away. Yet in the stance of evil that adds to god in unfaith, it becomes good to take away from God what was added. So from a state of corruption, the terms "adding" and "taking" each carry two opposing inferences and connotations, one evil and one good.

 

[smaller]

I just found this thread. I commend smaller and all participants for an excellent study in the contrary sources of moral/immoral impetus at work in mankind. The complexity of the issue is exacerbated by the imprecise and limited capabilities of our language to articulate it. Words have two meanings depending upon two images of God/god. How we define the term God according to His nature, defines our terms. For example, the term Holy means that it is perfect as is, and that nothing can be added nor taken away so as to improve upon it. This necessarily means that the powers that are built upon unfaith, have available two diametrically opposed semantically driven courses through which to propagate. The art of sophistry is based upon this occurrence.

We might even admit it gets doubly difficult when Jesus Himself purposefully obscured His Words:

Jesus purposefully spoke in parables. Partly because to understand them we really have to sit up and pay attention. Obviously the spirit of disobedience that is present with the flesh of all people is not going to lead anyone into that quest. The spirit of disobedience, as such, NOT being led BY CHRIST but RESISTED by Christ, they not only will not, but can not understand. IT is a LAW that they CAN NOT understand. They are LIARS. They are NOT ALLOWED into TRUTH or to speak TRUTH. We might also understand in this that God Is in fact working adversely, against and conversely with the spirit of disobedience, not in a friendly manner whatsoever, but in a perpetually condemning manner.

Does God really care what the spirit(s) of disobedience thinks about anything?

NOPE!

The disciples though, the ones whom God in Christ has called into faith in Him, have questions about these matters, such as:

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

And Jesus flat out tells them it's precisely spoken that way in order for them NOT to believe:

Matt. 13:
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And to those that DO KNOW and can PROVE IT, these are in fact DISCIPLES in TRUTH. I'm not saying there are not saved people who are saved, but do not know. There are. But being a disciple is TO HEAR these things. Not everyone HEARS or SEES.

The real question that ultimately gets answered to disciples is that it is NOT a question of "only people." The disclosure of the PARABLE shows the disciples that it's the PEOPLE and THE SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE that is not the people. Mark 4:15.

In this the 'true disciples' are led to understand that there are in fact TWO PARTIES being engaged in TWO entirely different manners by God in Christ. And both of these are in the same set of shoes, even with us. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7.

Yes, this is a most difficult thing to understand. Jesus did NOT come to "save or convert" the spirit of disobedience, but to EXPOSE and CONDEMN same and to WARN them of their forthcoming DESTRUCTION.

And further, IF the disciples understand this TWO PARTY principle, they'll see below who is to receive and who is to have taken away from them:

Matt. 13:
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Jesus fully intends to take EVERYTHING away from the 'spirit of disobedience.' Jesus has a quite factual ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP with the spirit of disobedience. And yes, even though God Himself made that spirit. God made it to resist God and God to resist them. Obviously not a fair fight as there can only be ONE Winner. But nevertheless this setup serves HIS PURPOSES to demonstrate what?

DIVINE MERCY.

God has quite purposefully put us all in a disadvantageous position PRECISELY that we would come to know the REALITY of Divine Mercy in a REAL setting. It's not "just talk."

So, when we understand the TWO PARTY system that God Himself has made, we see that it is to the spirit(s) of disobedience that His Resistance is to:

Matt. 13:
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The question is, WHO IS THEY?

The disciples are supposed to KNOW that THEY are the spirits of disobedience. And THEY are the captors of our fellow man, whom WE are set to divide them from when we proclaim GODS LOVE IN CHRIST unto people.

There are two workings going on in such witnesses.

They LIFT UP the person and PUT DOWN the spirit of disobedience in condemnation.

Just as JESUS HIMSELF did

and

DOES IN US.

 

[smaller]

Jesus has a very clear message to the spirit(s) of disobedience:

SHUT UP!

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Now, IF you are a disciple of Jesus, in TRUTH, you will read the below and you will SEE/HEAR who it is Jesus is speaking to:

Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

 

[smaller]

Now, the spirit of disobedience will come and will whine to no end about how "they" can be obedient. And how they are "faithful." And how they are "legal." And how they are "sinless." And any number of other LYING CLAIMS.

ALL just a flat out lie. The indwelling sin and evil present are what they are. These don't change. Romans 7:17-21.

What they can do is LIE to no end. And deceptively so.

And this kind of activity goes on everywhere the Gospel is proclaimed.

Lies to no end.

There is no choice for spirits of disobedience. They can only DISOBEY, and LIE and STEAL and DECEIVE and TEMPT and DESTROY and it is these workings that in the end are meant to KILL the natural body, to be replaced by our NEW BODY.

In this Gods Purposes for the natural man and the spiritual man are fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural man is totally CLUELESS about any of the disclosures that have been made by the scriptures in this thread. CLUELESS.

And the natural man will also RESIST these disclosures, because it is not a question of "just them." It's them and the spirit of disobedience that is really in control and putting them in outright denial and resistance of the scriptural disclosures and discourses. The natural man, will, by his blind/not seeing and not hearing nature, RESIST Gods Disclosures. AND that same spirit of disobedience will also try to LIE THEIR WAY IN through the DOOR, claiming to be blessed by God in Christ when they are actually CURSED by God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The disciples will ACCEPT that the spirit of disobedience that is upon our flesh IS CURSED and they will LOVE the CURSE and DAMNATION of God in Christ, KNOWING unto whom it is for:

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

IF you think for a minute that Paul didn't think the curse of God and the damnation of God in Christ was not upon the messenger of Satan in his own flesh....

you have a LONG ways to go for DISCIPLESHIP.

 

[childeye]

We might even admit it gets doubly difficult when Jesus Himself purposefully obscured His Words:

Jesus purposefully spoke in parables. Partly because to understand them we really have to sit up and pay attention. Obviously the spirit of disobedience that is present with the flesh of all people is not going to lead anyone into that quest. The spirit of disobedience, as such, NOT being led BY CHRIST but RESISTED by Christ, they not only will not, but can not understand. IT is a LAW that they CAN NOT understand. They are LIARS. They are NOT ALLOWED into TRUTH or to speak TRUTH. We might also understand in this that God Is in fact working adversely, against and conversely with the spirit of disobedience, not in a friendly manner whatsoever, but in a perpetually condemning manner.

Does God really care what the spirit(s) of disobedience thinks about anything?

NOPE!

The disciples though, the ones whom God in Christ has called into faith in Him, have questions about these matters, such as:

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

And Jesus flat out tells them it's precisely spoken that way in order for them NOT to believe:

Matt. 13:
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And to those that DO KNOW and can PROVE IT, these are in fact DISCIPLES in TRUTH. I'm not saying there are not saved people who are saved, but do not know. There are. But being a disciple is TO HEAR these things. Not everyone HEARS or SEES.

The real question that ultimately gets answered to disciples is that it is NOT a question of "only people." The disclosure of the PARABLE shows the disciples that it's the PEOPLE and THE SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE that is not the people. Mark 4:15.

In this the 'true disciples' are led to understand that there are in fact TWO PARTIES being engaged in TWO entirely different manners by God in Christ. And both of these are in the same set of shoes, even with us. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7.

Yes, this is a most difficult thing to understand. Jesus did NOT come to "save or convert" the spirit of disobedience, but to EXPOSE and CONDEMN same and to WARN them of their forthcoming DESTRUCTION.

And further, IF the disciples understand this TWO PARTY principle, they'll see below who is to receive and who is to have taken away from them:

Matt. 13:
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Jesus fully intends to take EVERYTHING away from the 'spirit of disobedience.' Jesus has a quite factual ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP with the spirit of disobedience. And yes, even though God Himself made that spirit. God made it to resist God and God to resist them. Obviously not a fair fight as there can only be ONE Winner. But nevertheless this setup serves HIS PURPOSES to demonstrate what?

DIVINE MERCY.

God has quite purposefully put us all in a disadvantageous position PRECISELY that we would come to know the REALITY of Divine Mercy in a REAL setting. It's not "just talk."

So, when we understand the TWO PARTY system that God Himself has made, we see that it is to the spirit(s) of disobedience that His Resistance is to:

Matt. 13:
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The question is, WHO IS THEY?

The disciples are supposed to KNOW that THEY are the spirits of disobedience. And THEY are the captors of our fellow man, whom WE are set to divide them from when we proclaim GODS LOVE IN CHRIST unto people.

There are two workings going on in such witnesses.

They LIFT UP the person and PUT DOWN the spirit of disobedience in condemnation.

Just as JESUS HIMSELF did

and

DOES IN US.

The complexity of words is daunting to say the least, even because in our present state of corruption, we must as a matter of due course ascertain whether the communication is gathering or scattering. For this reason, divine mercy must contend with two opposing perspectives wherein what is grace is easily misconstrued as hypocrisy. This happens consistently in the political forum.

WHO IS THEY? I don't think that God created the nature of Satan at the outset. But I do believe that He fully expected that this nature would arise in the form of vanity. Vanity, as I see it, is the product of circumstance that occurs precisely because there is a chasm of ignorance between Creator and creation. That ignorance is identified by the fall through distrust, and the need for the knowledge of God so as to be saved. All things were built upon faith, and unfaith is the source of corruption. Inevitably, the question of whether God is Holy or not, is present in this circumstance. I'm suggesting that perhaps only God has perfect Faith because He has no beginning and no end.

And further, IF the disciples understand this TWO PARTY principle, they'll see below who is to receive and who is to have taken away from them:

Matt. 13:
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Jesus fully intends to take EVERYTHING away from the 'spirit of disobedience.' Jesus has a quite factual ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP with the spirit of disobedience. And yes, even though God Himself made that spirit. God made it to resist God and God to resist them. Obviously not a fair fight as there can only be ONE Winner. But nevertheless this setup serves HIS PURPOSES to demonstrate what?

It seems to me that you are equating "THEY" with the adversarial spirit. This is difficult for me since I cannot draw a distinction between that spirit, and the souls that harbor it, even though I realize the "It is not I that do it". For the adversarial spirit remains manifested in the "I do it" crowd, with reference to the weakness of flesh and the conviction that the flesh can be overcome through sheer will power in lieu of forbearance. So when Jesus describes taking away what little they have, I believe he is referring to a person's faith in the Holiness of God, and coincidentally their capacity for empathy.

In conclusion, I feel that since all words become like shifting sand, I don't see a way that understanding can occur in the thoughts and speech of those who don't understand, apart from the intervention of the Holy Spirit. God has to now bring clarity into a situation where mankind had no legitimate reason to doubt God in the first place, and this is where the term divine mercy can be taken to mean the action of giving revelation. The fact that God has chosen the weak and foolish of this world to bestow such revelation, becomes an affront to vanity and unfaith that cannot be ignored.