Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[smaller]

You refuse to post a scripture, and we all know why.

Your citings didn't make Paul's hard line facts here go away.

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

Now, what about me not citing scriptures?

You might understand how the "accuser of the brethren" works in the flesh some day.

No choice of man makes them sinless. No choice of man makes sin dwelling in the flesh and evil present with us all go away.

The Spirit is and remains AGAINST and CONTRARY to the flesh PRECISELY for those reasons, of indwelling sin and evil present with us. Gal. 5:17.

 

[smaller]

It really is HARD for some believers to TELL THE TRUTH, ain't it?

But if we see the CAPTOR, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, we might recognize WHO can't TELL THE TRUTH. It's not the believer but the captor speaking.

 

[JLB]

Your citings didn't make Paul's hard line facts here go away.

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

What facts are you referring to?

I don't see any language, or facts here.

The choice is very simple, for each of us who believe.


Walk according to the flesh, and be condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Live and practice the works of the flesh, and perish, in which you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Spirit is and remains AGAINST and CONTRARY to the flesh PRECISELY for those reasons, of indwelling sin and evil present with us. Gal. 5:17.

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another,

Because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, we are warned to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

The choice is clear.

Walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another,

IF you think the above eliminates the scriptural reality of Romans 7 you'll have to point it out because it doesn't.

Quite entirely OBVIOUSLY there is "lust of the flesh" to deal with and engage or that statement above would have no meaning.

No choice eliminates having that lust to deal with, which is EXACTLY what Paul is pointing out in Romans 7 and in the citing you made.

IF you're claiming sinlessness you're wasting your time.

 

[JLB]

IF you think the above eliminates the scriptural reality of Romans 7 you'll have to point it out because it doesn't.

Quite entirely OBVIOUSLY there is "lust of the flesh" to deal with and engage or that statement above would have no meaning.

No choice eliminates having that lust to deal with, which is EXACTLY what Paul is pointing out in Romans 7 and in the citing you made.

IF you're claiming sinlessness you're wasting your time.

I don't see the language of the scripture you are referring to?

What are you trying to hide?


The choice to walk in the Spirit eliminates the result of fulfilling the lust of the flesh.


We are told to "walk in the Spirit" SO THAT we will not fulfill or practice the works of the flesh.

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another,

Because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, we are warned to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

The choice is clear.

Walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It really is HARD for some believers to TELL THE TRUTH, ain't it?

But if we see the CAPTOR, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, we might recognize WHO can't TELL THE TRUTH. It's not the believer but the captor speaking.

Still no scripture !

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body,

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

• For sin shall not have dominion over you,

and again

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

and again

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

 

[smaller]

Still no scripture !

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body

What is it exactly you are trying to prove JLB?

IF it's a claim of choice to be sinless, spit it out.

Obviously and again, sin IS in the mortal body as is "evil present." Romans 7:17-21

 

[JLB]

What is it exactly you are trying to prove JLB?

IF it's a claim of choice to be sinless, spit it out.

Obviously and again, sin IS in the mortal body as is "evil present." Romans 7:17-21

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• We have a choice to either fulfill the lust's of the flesh, by allowing sin to reign in dominion over us, or to "put to death" or "crucify" the sinful deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14


The choice is clear: do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin. Do not!

• present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

JLB

 

[smaller]

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• We have a choice to either fulfill the lust's of the flesh, by allowing sin to reign in dominion over us, or to "put to death" or "crucify" the sinful deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.

I'd suggest you are entirely MISSING the points of fact that scriptures make, particularly in Romans 7 or any number of other citings.

We do factually have sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us that DO the things THEY DO.

No choices make indwelling sin and evil present NOT DO what they DO nor do ANY choices make us sinless or without evil present.

So maybe time for you to move on?

 

[JLB]

I'd suggest you are entirely MISSING the points of fact that scriptures make, particularly in Romans 7 or any number of other citings.

We do factually have sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us that DO the things THEY DO.

No choices make indwelling sin and evil present NOT DO what they DO nor do ANY choices make us sinless or without evil present.

This is a Bible Study.


Please use scriptures from the bible, so the language of the scriptures can be discussed.

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• We have a choice to either fulfill the lust's of the flesh, by allowing sin to reign in dominion over us, or to "put to death" or "crucify" the sinful deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14


The choice is clear: do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin.


These are what the scriptures say.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both you and JLB have been claiming for quite some time or trying to claim, that indwelling sin and evil present OBEY the Spirit.

We all know demons don't obey God. They get cast away where they can harm no more.
It's the flesh that can be obedient to God, because of the Holy Spirit: "walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16 NASB)

Those are the hard line facts from Paul. Neither one of you guys or any of the balance of us are 'BETTER THAN PAUL.'

But are Paul, or I, or JLB better in our actions than the immoral fellow in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NASB? Of course we are. If you say we are not, then we need to be excommunicated from the church, Paul included. And if your doctrine is correct, so does every single Christian. So we can see how absurd your doctrine is. There really are wicked, unrepentant 'believers', and there are growing, maturing believers who cling to the forgiveness of God and find victory over sin.

No one is sinless Jethro. Even when "putting sin to death." That does NOT make anyone sinless. Paul does NOT show the indwelling sin and evil present with him as without ACTIONS nor did Paul EVER claim to be sinless. Paul claimed the EXACT OPPOSITE. 1 Tim. 1:15

Nobody thinks Christians are sinless. You invented that claim as the basis for excusing unrepentant sin in the believer, and condemning the ever-increasing righteousness of growing, maturing believers who can not associate with unrepentant believers because of their sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB).

If you live in an unrepentant lifestyle of sin, that is the 'believer' who is enslaved to evil and the flesh (but who could be set free if he would just walk in the Spirit as they learn to do that). That is the person in whom the devil and the flesh have their way without hindrance. But that authority has to be given back to them for them to be able to do that. And we give that authority back to them when we obey them (Romans 6:16 NASB), not by virtue of them simply being in existence.

 

[childeye]

I'm just a simple country preacher. What did you just say?

Remember Abbot and Costello's Who's on first, What's on second? I'm talking about words and phrases having more than one meaning. And l am also talking about how this occurrence can be used for deception, manipulation of the mind, discernment of spirit, and also the corruption of the contents of the soul as well as the healing of the spiritual soul.

But before I go further, I would first ask you to read three scriptures to put your mind in the right place for understanding. James 3:6, 2 Corinthians 11:3, Matthew 13:19.

Now look at Matthew 13:19 again: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the wayside.

Please notice that the wicked one is able to take away the word of the kingdom when the person doesn't understand. So understanding is important!

It is therefore my intention to get you to have a real conviction of what I wish to say so that it cannot be stolen. My goal is to establish a precedent, by convincing you to believe with absolute certainty, that manipulation of the mind and spirit is real. That way the wicked one cannot steal from your heart what I build upon that precedent through obvious impications. To do this, I will tell you a story that I am saying is a true account. If/when you believe me, then we can move on into the deeper implications.

My Father in law and Mother in law are divorced. Together they raised two daughters and three sons. I married the oldest daughter, whom I met through her older brother, who was a very good friend in my youth. We all got along well until there was a dispute over how the family should deal with the shadow of divorce that was looming over one of my wife's younger brothers and his wife. We were all brought up Roman Catholic, but my studies in scripture had caused me to question some of that doctrine. The issue that divided us was free will. While I was insisting that there were powers of darkness at work, they were adamant that since we all have a free will, no such thing was occurring. Their reasoning based on free will was contrary to mine and as I brought forth scripture, people were offended. As a result, there was a falling out. I was accused of shoving my religion down their throats and I was also forbidden to ever speak about any spiritual matters in the presence of the family.

Finally, after twenty years of an uncomfortable estrangement, God granted me the opportunity to clear the air and prove to my Mother in law, that free will was not a given fact. While visiting her one day, the discussion arose about words having more than one meaning. I told her that because words and phrases have more than one meaning, I could change the spirit inside of her soul from darkness to Light using the same five words. She welcomed the challenge and consented to the experiment. I stated these words, "I don't deserve my wife." She replied, "I don't like that you would say that". I said, "Okay that's a bad feeling." I then said, "But what if I meant that she is better than me?" She then thought about it and said, "Well then I like hearing that". I had produced two opposite feelings with the same five words. I then asked, "Why do you suppose you heard something bad and not something good the first time you heard it?" She sat in wonder about that, while I talked about how manipulation of the mind is a reality. And I found a new respect in her eyes.

If you are interested, you might like this post:
Why do people care about what morons have to say?

Your thoughts?

 

[JLB]

Nobody thinks Christians are sinless. You invented that claim as the basis for excusing unrepentant sin in the believer, and in turn condemning the ever-increasing righteousness of growing maturing believer who can not associate with unrepentant believers because of their sin (1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NASB).

Pure Platinum !!! :amen

 

[Chopper]

As far as I know, I am never, in this lifetime, free from a sin nature. The desire of my sinful flesh will always be fed by the enemy of my soul. Satan loves to steal God's Word that I was excited about this morning. Right now? I can't tell you what excited me. It appears to me that sin is a part of my flesh and likes to be stroked and acted upon.

My friends, when I reach the other side and walk on streets of gold, indwelling sin will be gone. Until then, I have to be careful with the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life. All that is indwelling my flesh ready to spring into action as soon as I relax my guard.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As far as I know, I am never, in this lifetime, free from a sin nature.

In my scriptural opinion, no believer still has a sin 'nature'. We still have sin in the flesh, but we do not have a sin 'nature'. In the very core of our being we are united with Christ via the Holy Spirit, and that makes us new creations: "17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

A pastor explained it like this. Before we were born again, righteousness was the invading enemy force that we chaffed against, and sin was the thing we so longed to embrace. But now as born again, Spirit-sealed Christians sin is the invading enemy force that we chaff against, and righteousness is the thing we long to embrace. There has been a fundamental change of nature within us.

It is from the flesh that the temptations to sin arise. They don't come from the new, transformed us. What remains until the day of redemption is the flesh body that has yet to be glorified, and it is from that flesh that we struggle with sin. I say struggle with sin, not embrace it willingly like we did before we became new creations in Christ when our struggle was with righteousness.

Paul describes the change within us as a change of marriage partner (Romans 7:1-6 NASB). Before Christ, we were 'married' to sinful flesh, the law acting as a kind of legal marriage license that kept us bound in obedience to marriage partner 'flesh' (Romans 7:5 NASB). But when 'flesh' died on the cross with Jesus we were no longer legally bound by the law to have to stay in marital obedience to old husband 'flesh', because marriage ends when the husband dies--Romans 7:3 NASB. A death has occurred, so we are now free to be joined in marital obedience and submission to a new marriage partner, Jesus Christ, to whom we now bear fruit (Romans 7:4 NASB).

Paul calls our old life before Christ as being 'in the flesh' (Romans 7:5 NASB, Romans 8:9 NASB). But he says we are no longer 'in the flesh' if we have the Spirit of God in us. He didn't say we are are no longer in the flesh when we obey the Spirit. He says that just by virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us we are no longer 'in the flesh' (Romans 8:9 NASB). That's where I see the truth that we no longer have a sin nature, but rather the new nature of Christ. As Christians, we are no longer 'in the flesh'.

 

[smaller]

In my scriptural opinion, no believer still has a sin 'nature'.

Sin is demonic. 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15.

We still have sin in the flesh, but we do not have a sin 'nature'.

Sin dwelling in the flesh has it's own sinning nature. Paul termed indwelling sin as NO MORE I. Obviously, not Paul. Romans 7:17 & 20.

It is from the flesh that the temptations to sin arise. They don't come from the new, transformed us.

Brilliant conclusion. Sin comes from the spirit of disobedience in the flesh.

Mark 4:15, Eph. 2:2, Romans 11:32.

What remains until the day of redemption is the flesh body that has yet to be glorified, and it is from that flesh that we struggle with sin. I say struggle with sin, not embrace it willingly like we did before we became new creations in Christ when our struggle was with righteousness.

The general point of observation is that no matter what we do, indwelling sin doesn't change it's ways nor does evil present with us cease to exist. These things still do what they do REGARDLESS OF OUR CHOICES.

Believers get deceived by sin, commonly for example by men who have lustful thoughts, but they never actually do the deed. And they then 'excuse' that internal working and pat themselves on the back for not being captured by those thoughts to the extent they did the deed. But that was never the issue to start with. Those thoughts are just as much EVIL and DEFILING. Matt. 5:28

When it comes to sin a person who doesn't "do the external deed" is STILL a sinner, proved so be internal defiling thoughts, WHICH thoughts Paul clearly explains in Romans 7 come from INDWELLING SIN, thereby PROVING us all sinners.

Most "works" salvation proponents positions in these matters are in error, because they quite falsely believe evil/sin thoughts are not SIN. They are sin because, as Paul shows us, SIN dwelling in the flesh is what is CAUSING those thoughts. Romans 7:7-13.

Paul describes the change within us as a change of marriage partner (Romans 7:1-6 NASB).

There is no indwelling sin/evil present "joined to Christ" EVER. Believers can not logically paint the entirety of themselves as "joined to Christ." The Spirit is and remains factually against and contrary to the flesh precisely because of indwelling sin and evil present with us all. Gal. 5:17.

Before Christ, we were 'married' to sinful flesh, the law acting as a kind of legal marriage license that kept us bound in obedience to marriage partner 'flesh' (Romans 7:5 NASB). But when 'flesh' died on the cross with Jesus we were no longer legally bound by the law to have to stay in marital obedience to old husband 'flesh', because marriage ends when the husband dies--Romans 7:3 NASB. A death has occurred, so we are now free to be joined in marital obedience and submission to a new marriage partner, Jesus Christ, to whom we now bear fruit (Romans 7:4 NASB).

Paul calls our old life before Christ as being 'in the flesh' (Romans 7:5 NASB, Romans 8:9 NASB). But he says we are no longer 'in the flesh' if we have the Spirit of God in us. He didn't say we are are no longer in the flesh when we obey the Spirit. He says that just by virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us we are no longer 'in the flesh' (Romans 8:9 NASB). That's where I see the truth that we no longer have a sin nature, but rather the new nature of Christ. As Christians, we are no longer 'in the flesh'.

There is a flesh body. But there is also present, a SPIRITUAL BODY. You should learn the difference between the 2.

The One Body we are a part of is NOT the flesh body:

1 Corinthians 10:17
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Cor. 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

These are NOT the same body.

The flesh body is factually defiled, vile and against/contrary to the Spirit. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Gal. 5:17, Phil. 3:21.

And the REASON the flesh body is defiled is because of sin dwelling in the flesh and evil present with us.

All who think they make these workings NOT what they are and NOT do what they do are simply off base.

We are to see indwelling sin/evil present as ALIEN to our Spiritual nature and body, and DIVIDE/DEPART from it.

But, when we LIE and say we don't have indwelling sin, evil present, EVIL THOUGHTS, defiling us, we have been made PAWNS of those workings by that LYING. And even worse, when we claim that "our sin and evil" is better or we are temporarily sinless or we don't have indwelling sin/evil present, we have fallen into an even DEEPER form of disobedient spiritual captivity called HYPOCRISY.

Which most of the churches have long ago fallen into. Now most of them just sell and spread lying hypocrisy in various forms. Quite sad, really.

 

[smaller]

My goal is to establish a precedent, by convincing you to believe with absolute certainty, that manipulation of the mind and spirit is real. That way the wicked one cannot steal from your heart what I build upon that precedent though obvious impications.

Your thoughts?

You seem to have completely opposite claims running there childeye.

We all get stolen from because we all see only in part, and as through glass, darkly. 1 Cor. 13:12. NONE of us see Perfectly.

What Paul presents is that SIN thoughts arise in our minds because of a factual adverse relationship between SIN and LAW.

Romans 7:7-13.

No matter what we as believers do, this is not a matter of believers. It is a matter of indwelling sin which is and remains in an adverse relationship with Gods Words.

Paul called this very real activity in his mind, via concupiscent thoughts, an action of NO MORE I in his own mind. Romans 7:17 & 20.

There is no stopping it. The law was meant precisely to make sin utterly sinful, and to give sin ADVERSE AGAINST THE LAW STRENGTH.

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

1 Cor. 15:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Paul is not saying there is anything whatseover WRONG with the law at all, and says the opposite, that the law is holy, righteous, and good. But SIN takes adverse resisting strength via EVIL THOUGHTS from the law. That's what indwelling sin does. It RESISTS God, His Works, His Ways, His Words.

Any believer who thinks they don't have this issue has in fact been deceived by indwelling sin. The relationship with indwelling sin and the law is NOT a matter of the relationship between US AS BELIEVERS and Gods Word, Works and Ways.

 

[JLB]

Paul calls our old life before Christ as being 'in the flesh' (Romans 7:5 NASB, Romans 8:9 NASB). But he says we are no longer 'in the flesh' if we have the Spirit of God in us. He didn't say we are are no longer in the flesh when we obey the Spirit. He says that just by virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us we are no longer 'in the flesh' (Romans 8:9 NASB). That's where I see the truth that we no longer have a sin nature, but rather the new nature of Christ. As Christians, we are no longer 'in the flesh'.

I agree that our nature has undergone a transformation, while at the same time, continues to undergo a transformation into a divine nature, as we continue in the faith and grow up into Him, in all fullness and stature.

However, at the same time, we are told that we have been given all things that pertain to life [eternal] and godliness, in order that we may have the grace [ability to do what we can not, without it] to be a divine participator in this process by... giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:1-9



JLB

 

[smaller]

But are Paul, or I, or JLB better in our actions than the immoral fellow in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NASB? Of course we are.

I'd suggest that is not true whatsoever. Paul made the exact opposite claim for himself. 1 Tim. 1:15. Romans 3:9 says likewise. I'd suggest that the "external actions" are NOT the measure of accuracy. IF you are speaking of external actions, then yes, that MAY be true. But that is NOT the measure scriptures use.

IF we understand this principle, that it is SATAN who is involved, internally, in temptations in our mind, then the worst sinner on planet earth has invaded our space. THAT sight is how Paul saw himself as the chief of sinners, post salvation, because he SAW the connection of his own INDWELLING SIN to the devil. 2 Cor. 12:7.

If you say we are not, then we need to be excommunicated from the church, Paul included. And if your doctrine is correct, so does every single Christian. So we can see how absurd your doctrine is. There really are wicked, unrepentant 'believers', and there are growing, maturing believers who cling to the forgiveness of God and find victory over sin.

Your logic is simply off. Yes, an external sinner proves the fact that they are captured slaves of sin. But people, believers even, not only can be but ARE just as much captives of sin IN MIND, and religious people can be quite thoroughly and utterly deceived. IF we observe for example the religious leaders of Jesus' days, they were in much worse shape, and Jesus reserved His Harshest Words precisely for THEM.

There is a Spiritual Reason Jesus berated them so severely. Where the Word is sown was by THEM from dispensing the scriptures through the temple/priest order of Israel. So, who is in the first LINE OF ATTACK by Satan? Mark 4:15.

Do the math. You'll see why they had the worst problems.

Nobody thinks Christians are sinless.

Totally TRUE. Our indwelling sin and evil present is not ONE WHIT better than the absolute WORST SINNER on the planet in the external senses. And this is quite contrary to your claims, that you are better, above.

You invented that claim as the basis for excusing unrepentant sin in the believer,

If you haven't noticed I don't "EXCUSE" anyone for sin. And I don't buy my theological understandings from lying religious hypocrites either.