Bible Study The Work of God: Terminal Agitation Ending in Silence

[smaller]

The complexity of words is daunting to say the least, even because in our present state of corruption, we must as a matter of due course ascertain whether the communication is gathering or scattering.

In the courses of Christ there is BOTH.

God in Christ has scattering purposes. These were performed for example in the scattering of Israel. The question will remain however, who was really scattered? The "natural man" will always, only and ever see just people. That's really not what went on.

IN the Eyes of God, judgment and scattering was upon the spirit(s) of disobedience. And that in fulfillment of this scripture:

Genesis 49:7
Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

And again, we're back to the question: WHO IS THEM?

IF we don't see the principle invoked in Mark 4:15, we won't see. The devil and his messengers were DEALT WITH in Israel. This is what those "NATURAL PEOPLE" in the O.T. show us. But of course to see that we have to see behind the curtains, spiritually.

For this reason, divine mercy must contend with two opposing perspectives wherein what is grace is easily misconstrued as hypocrisy. This happens consistently in the political forum.

In Mark 4:15 there is ONE party meant to receive DIVINE MERCY and ANOTHER party not meant to receive any mercy whatsoever.

It's never a one or the other matter in scripture, but both.

WHO IS THEY? I don't think that God created the nature of Satan at the outset.

As to timing of the creation of that adverse, evil, anti-Christ spirit of disobedience, Satan, we really are not told. I don't think "timelines" of Satan are all that critical, but I think it is fair to say that the creation of Satan came prior to the creation of mankind. And I'd make that claim based on:

Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Satan was meant to be "the covering cherub" put upon mankind, to BLIND them to God in Christ. Satan preceded man's creation to perform his tasks with mankind.

And, likewise, that set of tasks has a termination point:

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

That point, the point of "I WILL" arrives at Phil. 3:21.

I could of course write of more in this direction from the scriptures.

But I do believe that He fully expected that this nature would arise in the form of vanity. Vanity, as I see it, is the product of circumstance that occurs precisely because there is a chasm of ignorance between Creator and creation.

There is a personification of these matters in the form of a real resisting personality/entity of Satan and devils. No amount of switching the subject to their works, and yes, vanity is one of their futile works, will dissuade the LIGHT from shining on them as "real adverse entities." NOR will it eliminate 'vanity' by exposing THEM.

The point of vanity is that we have "all" been made subject to same, by God no less. Romans 8. I'm sure you know this.

That ignorance is identified by the need for the knowledge of God so as to be saved. All things were built upon faith, and unfaith is the source of corruption. Inevitably, the question of whether God is Holy or not, is present in this circumstance. I'm suggesting that perhaps only God has perfect Faith because He has no beginning and no end.

It's a common two fold problem. A. I have no perceptions of the totality of Perfection, nor do I really ever expect to. God has no bounds or limitations for all of eternity. That is ETERNAL PERFECTION. Everything else is just that. Less than God as Eternal Perfection.

And B., No amount of our understanding Perfection is about to change whatever it is that God Himself has in mind. In other words, we, in our own power, can't really force any issues. We can certainly spin our wheels and waste our time, in vanity. Whatever that it is that we hold up in Christ, IF it is anything even remotely resembling THE TRUTH, it will be guaranteed to have resistance and be resisted by the spirit(s) of disobedience.

So, whatever we see in the world is more than likely THAT, and probably not much resembling actual TRUTH or we'd be hearing more of TRUTH.

But, the thievery is as effective as GOD HIMSELF wants it to be, which is also part of Gods Plan prior to THEIR destruction. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56.

It seems to me that you are equating "THEY" with the adversarial spirit.

Yes, I would hope that much would have been abundantly clear by now. If we hold up any form of God to the adversarial spirit do we think it would really matter to THEM? NOPE! They will resist, regardless.

This is difficult for me since I cannot draw a distinction between that spirit, and the souls that harbor it.

There is definitely a captor/captive relationship going on, without any doubt. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many other scriptures speak directly to these matters.

We can quite easily presume that with everyone there is ONE party that is meant to hear/see and another meant NOT TO hear/see. From there we learn to "divide the chips" as they are shown to us.

The fact is that even with ourselves, this state exists. Those who don't and can't see it have not yet been led by Christ to that sight.

So when Jesus describes taking away what little they have, I believe he is referring to a person's faith in the Holiness of God, and coincidentally their capacity for empathy.

It's not a one or the other deal. It's both.

In conclusion, I feel that since all words become like shifting sand, there is no way understanding can occur in our thoughts and speech apart from the holy Spirit. God has to now bring clarity into a situation where mankind had no legitimate reason to doubt God in the first place, and this is where the term divine mercy is seen in the action of giving revelation. The fact that God has chosen the weak and foolish of this world is an affront to vanity and unfaith that cannot be ignored.

Again, it's not a one or the other deal. We err when we try to fall onto only one side of the ledgers.

 

[smaller]

The "church members" have been soooo stolen from.

First of all, few, if any, accept or believe that Mark 4:15 happens to them, even though we know that "every Word" of God is supposed to apply to us. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. The mind of the blinded/stolen from will DENY to it's dying breath that Mark 4:15 happens to them. Such will LIKEWISE deny their sin is in any way connected to THE DEVIL, per 1 John 3:8.

Who is really doing the denial? Not hard to see at all IF we accept what Jesus said in Mark 4:15. But yes, it is a BIG GULP moment for any believer to see.

And this utter FAILURE to see has resulted, quite factually, in this fact, predicted by Paul long long ago, Paul understanding "how" the resistance parties work:

Acts 20:29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

There are supposed believers who can't believe this fact if their life depended on it:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

A believer will accept, adhere to and HOLD FAST to the dictates of Jesus above....

but...the spirit of disobedience will do the OPPOSITE, and seek to DESTROY believers by any means possible.

And there are many such destroyers IN THE CHURCHES.

Believers thinking that God in Christ may even DESTROY them. Even Peter figured this one out:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

How many believers dangle themselves over the pits of eternal hell for 'non-performance?' Nearly every freewiller does for example. Freewillers don't even REALIZE that the spirit of disobedience has IT'S OWN WILL. A DESTROYING WILL.

Peter gave us also, ample warnings:

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

THE WICKED has been "revealed" to us in Mark 4:15

 

[smaller]

The Living Words of God in Christ to His believers, to save them to the uttermost, is soooo resisted by the "god of this world," by Satan's entry into their hearts, stealing LIFE from them, that they think the very opposite fate could be in store for believers.

That's the workings of Romans 7:13, arousing indwelling sin to it becoming utterly sinful, and completely rolling over the believers, from life to potential eternal death. Just as 1 Cor. 15:56 proposes.

Gods Word DOES empower the resistance movement, the spirit(s) of disobedience to do what? What?

Yeah, to RESIST LIFE.

I can tell with many many believers that I encounter, that the condemner is lurking in them, just waiting to pounce and to condemn me to potential eternal hell. It's very nearly predictable.

You can almost see it in their eyes. They don't even trust themselves. They might have a little trust in Jesus, but not sufficient for HIM to save them. And they sure ain't going to have any trust in another believer, given half a chance to CONDEMN.

How well the scriptures pinpointed this VENOM of the VIPERS:

Psalm 140:3
They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

Romans 3:13
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

James 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

No, these are not joking matters.

I have witnessed, with my own two eyes, preachers who's eyes narrowed and slanted, their heads swayed, back and forth, and they HISSED at me, when hearing the TRUTHs that Paul speaks of.

Why? Because GODS LIGHT was shed upon THE SERPENT in their own flesh, and it slithered into sight.

These things follow those who believe.

 

[childeye]

In the courses of Christ there is BOTH.
Again, it's not a one or the other deal. We err when we try to fall onto only one side of the ledgers.

I believe our communication is breaking down. Not trying to fall onto one side of the ledgers is exactly what I am attempting to do when ascertaining whether I am on one side of the ledgers or the other side. It could also be described as the way that the Holy Spirit divides the spirit from the soul.

I think silence is coming due in the course of our discussion.

 

[smaller]

I believe our communication is breaking down. Not trying to fall onto one side of the ledgers is exactly what I am attempting to do when ascertaining whether I am on one side of the ledgers or the other side.

You as a believer are on one side. The spirit of disobedience, the other.

There is no putting you on the side of the spirit of disobedience, nor the spirit of disobedience on your side.

It could also be described as the way that the Holy Spirit divides the spirit from the soul.

I think silence is coming due in the course of our discussion.

There is an assured two fold discourse in these matters. IF we don't perceive the reality of Mark 4:15 for ourselves, we more than likely are not getting the picture.

When any believer DENIES that Satan enters their hearts to steal, it is actually NOT THEM making that claim, but the spirit of disobedience, Satan, speaking.

Discernment 101.

Satan actually wants us to see only ourselves, so it's easier to "blame and accuse" the brethren and ignore his role in these matters.

The flesh of mankind is Satan's (and his own's) hiding place.

 

[smaller]

It's actually quite interesting and fascinating to see "believers" get madder than a wet hornet when the facts of their sin being "of the devil" are pinpointed.

It's actually the deceiver who is madder than a wet hornet, because his hold in the flesh has been discovered by Gods Word Light.

 

[smaller]

IF Jesus looked at YOU and said THIS, would YOU be offended?

Matt. 16:
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

John the Apostle is saying no differently to US, here:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Nor is Paul saying any differently, here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Jesus has a Word of advice when "hearing" Him:

Matthew 11:6
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

No one will take offense when hearing Jesus Loves them.

however...

When we hear our sin is of the devil? Uh, yeah. Offended. Instantly. At least the devil is offended. Believers should not be, because it's a fact.

Romans 3:19 comes into effect when we see it. We know our mouths are shut and we ARE GUILTY in these regards, beyond any doubt.

We also see WHY.

 

[Chopper]

Another Truth from God's Word came to light today in my studies smaller, it is this .... Romans 7:21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." .... For years I have known that this verse is very real and active every day regardless of my intent to always please my Heavenly Father.

There is a relentless force that I've discovered in my human make up, and that is, according to the Apostle Paul, a "law". Apparently there are various usages of the word law. In this verse it is .... the sense that it binds, controls, influences, or is that to which Paul was subject. There can be no doubt that he refers here to his carnal and corrupt nature.

It therefore is my corrupt nature that influences the desires of my flesh. Where did I obtain a corrupt nature? YEP, There it is!! Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Looks like Adam & Eve gave birth to Mark 4:15 "And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts." I wonder if Satan started his theft of God's Word with Eve first, then Adam so that God's command not to eat of the tree was just in the background of their minds and not at the forefront.

It looks like to me, that one of Satan's tactics is to steal commands thru the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. In order to steal from someone, Satan gives them something that appeals to their flesh by presenting something that's better. Hmm.

 

[JLB]

You keep claiming there is a choice. No, there isn't a choice.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The choice is to walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit.

Paul plainly says we are debtors, Not to the flesh.

We are not to invest our efforts to live according to the sinful desires and lustful cravings of the flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Paul says we are to "put to death", which is to crucify the deeds or manifestations or the "works" that arise from the flesh.

• if you live according to the flesh you will die
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The "if" establishes the condition of choice the believer has, which is to either exercise the dominion we have in Christ, over sin, or to allow sin to have dominion over us.


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

Paul makes this principle clear to the Romans.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:11-14



JLB

 

[JLB]

The Spirit is and remains contrary to and against the flesh regardless of any choices made, and IS SO because of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us, to which the SPIRIT will never agree.

Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17.

Let's write out what the scripture says, rather than the scripture reference, so all can examine.


Of course we can choose to obey the Spirit within us, rather than the sinful cravings of our flesh, which are contrary.

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body,

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

• For sin shall not have dominion over you,

and again

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

and again

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24




There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1




JLB

 

[smaller]

Another Truth from God's Word came to light today in my studies smaller, it is this .... Romans 7:21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." .... For years I have known that this verse is very real and active every day regardless of my intent to always please my Heavenly Father.

There is a relentless force that I've discovered in my human make up, and that is, according to the Apostle Paul, a "law". Apparently there are various usages of the word law. In this verse it is .... the sense that it binds, controls, influences, or is that to which Paul was subject. There can be no doubt that he refers here to his carnal and corrupt nature.

It therefore is my corrupt nature that influences the desires of my flesh. Where did I obtain a corrupt nature? YEP, There it is!! Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Looks like Adam & Eve gave birth to Mark 4:15 "And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts." I wonder if Satan started his theft of God's Word with Eve first, then Adam so that God's command not to eat of the tree was just in the background of their minds and not at the forefront.

It looks like to me, that one of Satan's tactics is to steal commands thru the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. In order to steal from someone, Satan gives them something that appeals to their flesh by presenting something that's better. Hmm.

You hit on a lot of important points of order above.

If we understand Mark 4:15 (and the other seed parables, but Mark 4:15 pretty well cuts to the point) then it is reasonable to conclude that from the moment God Spoke His First Words to Adam (with Eve still not separated out from Adam yet, God called them both Adam, Gen. 5:2) Satan entered immediately thereafter.

We know this is valid because Adam then had THE LAW laid on him. There would be no cause for law but for the knowledge of sin. Satan was already at work. The very next step after THE LAW, Adam had a sleep fall upon him. That is what the "spirit of slumber" does. It works darkness/slumber, Acts 26:18 Romans 11:8, Romans 13:12. All of these step are in scriptural order. Word sown. Satan's entry into the heart, the law against Satan, slumber. Every point is hit with Adam.

These same steps are found with many others in the scriptures as well, particularly the "sleep" or "falling as dead" aspect. Abraham, Gen. 15:12, Daniel, Dan. 8:18 and John in Rev. 1:17 come quickly to mind. It's an interesting study in itself.

So, yeah, it did start with Adam. Mark 4:15 happened. But Adam, the natural man, like all natural men was clueless. It was Eve who was first deceived. This signifies that it is the "inner man" who is deceived and in bondage.

We should recognize that there are Divine Purposes for God putting us in this position. The position DEMANDS that His Mercy in Christ be upon us. Romans 11:32. And God can certainly make it worse on us to emphasize the point of order. All He has to do is rile up our spiritual adversaries/opponents, who are commanded to resist God, by His Words.

You see spreading the Word of God is not a favor to the 'whole' world. It is also meant to provoke the adversaries into a frenzy, prior to their final destruction. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Matt. 23:33, Matt. 25:41.

 

[smaller]

Of course we can choose to obey the Spirit within us, rather than the sinful cravings of our flesh, which are contrary.

Your positions keep insisting that indwelling sin and evil present can choose to obey the Spirit. That is NOT possible. You really need to start your own thread IF you want to try to make such ridiculous claims. I ain't buying and never will.

Paul set the marks of TRUTH in these matters. Here they are, the hard line facts:

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

NONE of these statements of fact (and many more likewise) indicate that indwelling sin and evil present OBEYED the Spirit or the Law. But actually did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If what smaller says is true then the entire church is to be expelled from the church:

"11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13 NASB bold in original)

The word remaining in and prospering in the soil of our hearts depends on the condition of the soil, not on the power of the devil. If all believers have type one soil then we all need to make a bee line for the church doors right now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NONE of these statements of fact indicate that indwelling sin and evil present OBEYED. But actually did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The point is not to get evil to submit and obey.
The point is to PUT IT TO DEATH when it begs to have it's way.
Nobody's making an argument for making evil obedient.
The argument is that it be CRUCIFIED DEAD.

Greater is he who is in me than he that is in the world!

 

[smaller]

If what smaller says is true then the entire church is to be expelled from the church:

Your sensationalism has no standing in the light of scriptural facts.

Both you and JLB have been claiming for quite some time or trying to claim, that indwelling sin and evil present OBEY the Spirit.

I think such claims are simply absurd in the light of scriptural facts.

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

Those are the hard line facts from Paul. Neither one of you guys or any of the balance of us are 'BETTER THAN PAUL.'

Paul taught for no uncertain fact that as it pertains to sin, we are no better. Romans 3:9. So did Jesus in Luke 18:11 where He showed that a religious man who thought he was better than the "other sinners" had NO STANDING in Gods Eyes, but the man who was TRUTHFUL about having sin and NEEDING Gods Mercy went to his house, justified.

These are pretty simple lessons that a lot of people are ignorant of. Obviously.

You can work out your irrelevant sensationalism somewhere else.

 

[smaller]

The point is not to get evil to submit and obey.
The point is to PUT IT TO DEATH when it begs to have it's way.

No one is sinless Jethro. Even when "putting sin to death." That does NOT make anyone sinless. Paul does NOT show the indwelling sin and evil present with him as without ACTIONS nor did Paul EVER claim to be sinless. Paul claimed the EXACT OPPOSITE. 1 Tim. 1:15

Some of you guys need to own up to reality.

 

[Chopper]

I just found this thread. I commend smaller and all participants for an excellent study in the contrary sources of moral/immoral impetus at work in mankind. I would like to contribute.

As I see it, the complexity of the issue is exacerbated by the imprecise and limited capabilities of our language to articulate it. Words have two meanings both good and evil, depending upon two images of God/god. How we define the term God according to His Nature, defines our terms. We then project our imagery of God/god in our conversation. With this in mind, Imagine how many terms fall under the umbrella of good and evil in the moral/immoral purview.

For example, the term Holy means that it is perfect as is, and that nothing can be added nor taken away so as to improve upon it. This necessarily means that the powers that are built upon unfaith, have available two diametrically opposed semantically driven courses through which to propagate. The art of sophistry is based upon this occurrence.

Please notice that there are two types of evil available when questioning Holiness. One is to add to God and the other is to take away from God. Consequently in the stance of evil that has taken something away so as to improve upon god in unfaith, it becomes good to add back to God what was taken away. Yet in the stance of evil that adds to god in unfaith, it becomes good to take away from God what was added. So from a state of corruption, the terms "adding" and "taking" each carry two opposing inferences and connotations, one evil and one good.

I'm just a simple country preacher. What did you just say?

 

[JLB]

Your positions keep insisting that indwelling sin and evil present can choose to obey the Spirit. That is NOT possible. You really need to start your own thread IF you want to try to make such ridiculous claims. I ain't buying and never will.

Paul set the marks of TRUTH in these matters. Here they are, the hard line facts:

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

NONE of these statements of fact (and many more likewise) indicate that indwelling sin and evil present OBEYED the Spirit or the Law. But actually did the EXACT OPPOSITE.

You refuse to post a scripture, and we all know why.


Please refer to the actual language of the scripture, rather than making up what the scripture doesn't say, and referring to that.

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body,

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

• For sin shall not have dominion over you,

and again

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

and again

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

and again

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24




There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1




JLB

Sin does not have a choice to obey the Spirit, but rather the person has the choice.

 

[JLB]

Your sensationalism has no standing in the light of scriptural facts.

Both you and JLB have been claiming for quite some time or trying to claim, that indwelling sin and evil present OBEY the Spirit.

I think such claims are simply absurd in the light of scriptural facts.

Romans 7:7-13
Romans 7:15
Romans 7:19
Romans 7:17 & 20-21
1 Tim. 1:15

Those are the hard line facts from Paul. Neither one of you guys or any of the balance of us are 'BETTER THAN PAUL.'

Paul taught for no uncertain fact that as it pertains to sin, we are no better. Romans 3:9. So did Jesus in Luke 18:11 where He showed that a religious man who thought he was better than the "other sinners" had NO STANDING in Gods Eyes, but the man who was TRUTHFUL about having sin and NEEDING Gods Mercy went to his house, justified.

These are pretty simple lessons that a lot of people are ignorant of. Obviously.

You can work out your irrelevant sensationalism somewhere else.

The choice is very simple, for each of us who believe.


Walk according to the flesh, and be condemned.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Live and practice the works of the flesh, and perish, in which you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[smaller]

It choice is very simple.

Choice does not eliminate indwelling sin/evil present. That's all there is to this matter. Time to move on. No one chooses themselves to be "sinless." No choice makes indwelling sin and evil present be gone or NOT do what they do.

Paul puts his marks of fact on these matters.

I would even consider that believers who think they can "choose" indwelling sin in their flesh and evil present with them OUT of the picture have actually been quite deceived by indwelling sin/evil present.