There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Runningman]

None of the above answered the question I asked you ?
If you are afraid to answer just say so and I will refrain from asking the same question again.
How do you rationalize in your mind the fact that God specifically identifies the individual moment He created the heavens , angels, earth, plants, man , animals , etc,etc,etc,,,,, and yet the moment you say God's greatest creattion was created God neglects to mention ?
As though God were ashamed to talk about the creation of Jesus .
There is nothing you can name that God has not specifically mentioned in His word the creation of .
Nothing
I dare you to try naming anything ABOVE & BELOW that God has not taken credit for creating in His Word ?
You can't do it .
Yet you assert that the greatest feat of creation God ever accomplished , that of the Humanity's one & only Savior, God fails to mention one syllable of .
Nothing!
Zilch !
How do you explain that?

Gen 1:16

............ he made the stars also.

You're using what is called an argument from silence. Your premise is that Jesus is not created because your belief or feeling is that the Bible doesn't say Jesus was created in the way you want it to say it, even though Revelation 3:14 does says Jesus is created. In this way, you keep the goal posts moving. However, the Bible says God created humans and Jesus is a human. We also know that God made all matter and that humans are made out of matter. The same material stars and planets are made out of can be found in humans, various elements and compounds. Jesus was made out of matter, his body fallible and subject to change. Do you contest any of this? If so, I both dare you and challenge you to show otherwise. Good luck, you'll need it.

I will even take it a step further. Not only was Jesus' body created by God, but he was given a distinctly unique human spirit as well. In Luke 23:46, Jesus said “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!” Where does the spirit come from? According to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the spirit of all people comes from God in the first place. Jesus also has a soul that Isaiah said was made a guilt offering for sin in Isaiah 53:10.

 

[Runningman]

No, that words from John are not about foreknowledge. That’s obvious…

"For Jesus it's different because I said so" seems to be round about what you're saying. Well, I will have to completely disagree, respectfully.

 

[Dmytro]

He certainly did call Himself God.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not exactly. That 'I am' redirects to the name of Yahweh. So Jesus was claiming to be equal to Yahweh God the Father.

 

[Mustard Seed]

I don’t know if you are one who denies the teaching of Paul, some do.
If not, I recommend the book of Romans.

Romans speaks of a "thorn in the flesh", which is a metaphor two fold. Paul Himself identifies an agent of Satan "EXTERNAL" to him, afflicting him.

It is to be seen as a metaphor for any sin or trial that a Christian is failing at overcoming...

It is also a Mental struggle within Paul, a Pharisee of Pharisee's that studied under Gamaliel, who himself said that he "could" boast in his own flesh more than any else, but counted it rubbish, for the sake of the gospel. He is trying to keep his hope in Jesus (The New Covenant), while retaining relinquishment of Law Obedience (Old Covenant).

Peter said it best about Paul; 2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some things hard to understand in them. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

In no way do I direct this at you, but I assure you, Flesh itself is not evil, nor does EVIL dwell within the flesh.

I can give you a gnostic quote if it helps... "All physical matter is subject to decay, rotting, and death. Those bodies and the material world, are therefore evil. Trapped in the material world, but ignorant of its status, the pieces of God require knowledge (gnosis) to inform them of their true status." <- This is Gnosticism and it is bad.

Paul on this very matter... 1 Timothy 6:20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called "knowledge"

By the Greek "Knowledge"
1108 [e]
gnōseōs
γνώσεως ,
knowledge
N-GFS

Within Strongs 1108 [e]
1108 /gnṓsis ("applied-knowledge") is only as accurate (reliable) as the relationship it derives from. For example, the Gnostics boasted of their "applied knowledge" gained by their personal spiritual experiences – and it was (is) disastrous!

["Gnosticism" is literally, "the cult based on having special, personal knowledge" (1108 /gnṓsis).]

 

[LeviR]

You're using what is called an argument from silence. Your premise is that Jesus is not created because your belief or feeling is that the Bible doesn't say Jesus was created in the way you want it to say it, even though Revelation 3:14 does says Jesus is created. In this way, you keep the goal posts moving. However, the Bible says God created humans and Jesus is a human. We also know that God made all matter and that humans are made out of matter. The same material stars and planets are made out of can be found in humans, various elements and compounds. Jesus was made out of matter, his body fallible and subject to change. Do you contest any of this? If so, I both dare you and challenge you to show otherwise. Good luck, you'll need it.

I will even take it a step further. Not only was Jesus' body created by God, but he was given a distinctly unique human spirit as well. In Luke 23:46, Jesus said “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!” Where does the spirit come from? According to Ecclesiastes 12:7, the spirit of all people comes from God in the first place. Jesus also has a soul that Isaiah said was made a guilt offering for sin in Isaiah 53:10.

If something God teaches is not clearly understood and fully comprehended, it may be that they are wearing glasses with warped lenses.
The glasses with the warped lenses represents teaching that is not understood or comprehended. Something that cannot clearly be seen by the mind and intellect.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sin dwells in the flesh because the flesh has its own desires which care nothing for any laws. It only wants what it wants. And that’s why it can be your master.

If it truly "dwells in your flesh", cut it off.
Either that ,or else repent of sin and get baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, so the skin and bones you walk around in are His skin and bones, and not yours. (Gal 2:20)

I must ask...what sin has your left foot ever committed ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

There again they tried to kill him because he was identifying himself a God.
But like before, Jesus could say “I am the son of God”.

He did say not only that He was the Son of God in this passage, He said that Abraham Witnessed His departure from His Glorious Realm of heavenn to become a baby :

". 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

And He also said He was God in the next breath:
"58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

 

[Dmytro]

Do you believe that "only the Father" is God?

Yes, for sure

Do you believe that "The Son" is created?

Jesus always was. I believe the Son is the same as the Father.

Do you believe that the "Holy Spirit" is simply a reference to the active "force or will" of the Father upon a person?

The Holy Spirit is a divine being, the same as the Father and Jesus.

 

[Mustard Seed]

If it truly "dwells in your flesh", cut it off.
Either that ,or else repent of sin and get baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, so the skin and bones you walk around in are His skin and bones, and not yours. (Gal 2:20)

I must ask...what sin has your left foot ever committed ?

Taking Jesus at the literal could result in a missing eye. :D

 

[Mustard Seed]

Yes, for sure

Jesus always was. I believe the Son is the same as the Father.

The Holy Spirit is a divine being, the same as the Father and Jesus.

So, God is 3 and One, simultaneously? IE... TriUNE

By the way, I'm not fond of labels, either. I get it.

 

[LeviR]

Romans speaks of a "thorn in the flesh", which is a metaphor two fold. Paul Himself identifies an agent of Satan "EXTERNAL" to him, afflicting him.

It is to be seen as a metaphor for any sin or trial that a Christian is failing at overcoming...

It is also a Mental struggle within Paul, a Pharisee of Pharisee's that studied under Gamaliel, who himself said that he "could" boast in his own flesh more than any else, but counted it rubbish, for the sake of the gospel. He is trying to keep his hope in Jesus (The New Covenant), while retaining relinquishment of Law Obedience (Old Covenant).

Peter said it best about Paul; 2 Peter 3:16 He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some things hard to understand in them. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

In no way do I direct this at you, but I assure you, Flesh itself is not evil, nor does EVIL dwell within the flesh.

I can give you a gnostic quote if it helps... "All physical matter is subject to decay, rotting, and death. Those bodies and the material world, are therefore evil. Trapped in the material world, but ignorant of its status, the pieces of God require knowledge (gnosis) to inform them of their true status." <- This is Gnosticism and it is bad.

Paul on this very matter... 1 Timothy 6:20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called "knowledge"

By the Greek "Knowledge"
1108 [e]
gnōseōs
γνώσεως ,
knowledge
N-GFS

Within Strongs 1108 [e]
1108 /gnṓsis ("applied-knowledge") is only as accurate (reliable) as the relationship it derives from. For example, the Gnostics boasted of their "applied knowledge" gained by their personal spiritual experiences – and it was (is) disastrous!

["Gnosticism" is literally, "the cult based on having special, personal knowledge" (1108 /gnṓsis).]

It would take some time to copy and paste all that Paul has to say regarding the flesh in Romans. But it’s there if interested.

 

[LeviR]

If it truly "dwells in your flesh", cut it off.
Either that ,or else repent of sin and get baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, so the skin and bones you walk around in are His skin and bones, and not yours. (Gal 2:20)

I must ask...what sin has your left foot ever committed ?

The teaching of Scripture is to control the flesh. Master over it or it will Master over you.

 

[Mustard Seed]

It would take some time to copy and paste all that Paul has to say regarding the flesh in Romans. But it’s there if interested.

This is an odd question... but do you believe that Jesus died for ALL people, as in the Wicked and the Saved?

 

[Dmytro]

He did say not only was He the Son of God in this passage, He said that Abraham Witnessed His departure from His Glorious Realm to become a baby :
". 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

And He also said He was God in the next breath:
"58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Taking into account the context I would say he meant that he revealed himself to Abraham and showed him the wedding feast of the Lamb and Abraham was filled with joy. Remember Lazarus in Abraham's bosom?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Taking Jesus at the literal could result in a missing eye. :biggrin

Wouldn't that be better than going to hell ?
Jesus' lesson was a preage, or shadow, of what was to be realized with baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That baptism also is the means of "casting off the flesh"...our circumcision done without hands. (Com 2:11-12)
If one believes there is sin in their body parts, they have not repented of sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

 

[Mustard Seed]

The teaching of Scripture is to control the flesh. Master over it or it will Master over you.

That's old covenant. Jesus indwelling us and working as the Potter on our "Soul's" clay, is the New Covenant. Faith is our part. We must Trust His full work of Salvation. IMO

 

[Mustard Seed]

Wouldn't that be better than going to hell ?
Jesus' lesson was a preage, or shadow, of what was to be realized with baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
That baptism also is the means of "casting off the flesh"...our circumcision done without hands. (Com 2:11-12)
If one believes there is sin in their body parts, they have not repented of sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Wait... are you dead an buried, just like me? :P

 

[Hopeful 2]

The teaching of Scripture is to control the flesh. Master over it or it will Master over you.

The teaching of scripture is the crucifixion of the flesh, and rebirth from God's seed.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Wait... are you dead an buried, just like me? :tongue

I don't know you, so hesitate to answer.
How long have you been a non-sinner ?

 

[Mustard Seed]

The teaching of scripture is the crucifixion of the flesh, and rebirth from God's seed.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Nuh Uh! The Law! Hoping for a specific verse in Galatians finding it's way back.