There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Dmytro]

I don't have to explain it. Colossians 1:13-20 does so, just fine.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 1:15

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?​

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First Born per biblical Concordance: 4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).​

Okay... so Jesus, who is the very "image", "Presence" of God. Jesus whom is God the Son... is the Creator. Does scripture agree?

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him​

and to Him are all things.​

To Him be the glory forever. Amen.​

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But... Jesus is the creator? Philippians 2:9​

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Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

There's that Creator thing, again. So the word All, refers to ALL that exists that our TriUne God has Created. That's everything. No exceptions.



This is God, our Lord God.


Trinity verbiage. The Father is the "Head" of the Son, aka Jesus Christ has His Father as His Head. We the Body have The Son, as our Head


He is the first to show that death has zero captivity over the Body of Christ.


This is God we are talking about, after all

John 14:7 “If you know Me, you will also know[d] My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”​

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8 “Lord,” said Philip, “show us the Father, and that’s enough for us.”​

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9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe[e] because of the works themselves.​

Now, we finally se that the very things that God created are "all" (The Greek word is pas ) reconciled through Jesus Christ's blood.

Why is this a big deal?

2nd Corinthians 15:18-21​

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15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.​

16 From now on, then, we do not know[a] anyone in a purely human way.[b] Even if we have known[c] Christ in a purely human way,[d] yet now we no longer know[e] Him in this way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things[f] have come. 18 Everything is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:​

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Well, that sounds all well and grand, but some say that He didn't die with Salvic Love towards all. Okay, lets see why Colossians 1 is iron clad. Let's truncate it, now that we have evaluated it.

16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
20 and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross[j]—
whether things on earth or things in heaven.

What we see here are 3 red words. The Greek is Pas The word Pas is used to say the entirety of or a part of, by Greek lingual intention. This is why Pas theologians disagree with pas theologians over this matter to then say... Jesus didn't die Lovingly for all that have or ever will exist.

Here comes the magic of Colossians 1. We have the first PAS attached to the authority, sovereignty and creation of all things that Jesus is given authority over.

The second Pas denotes All of Creation, which as seen above, is literally ON EARTH, IN HEAVEN and just incase someone missed it... ALL THINGS VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE. This isn't a standoff. Only one Being is left. God.​

The last PAS specifies that those very PAS things are Re-established to Jesus Christ's authority through the Shedding of His BLOOD.

We now have an ironclad theological equation!

Christ's authority was Reconciled, Rectified, Re-Established, through the Shedding of His blood. This Places PAS directly in line in all 3 places with the Things that Christ has Authority over. This is to say that if one single piece of creation were to be declared not intended for that BLOOD, it wouldn't be under Christ's authority.

If you don’t want you don’t have to. I got the explanation.

 

[Dmytro]

Allow me to simplify my post number 258.

In Colossians 1, it specifies that The Son of God Created ALL things in Heaven and Earth, Seen and Unseen.

Now, if God the Father is "Unseen", which I'm safely assuming that you believe... How did the Son create the Father? He obviously didn't. The Father and Son have never not existed.

One more time.... BECAUSE Colossians 1 says... THE SON OF GOD, created Everything in Earth and Heaven, Seen and Unseen... what is left? Who does this distinguish the Son to be?

I didn’t quite get weather you are you asking and leaving me to guess or answering

 

[Mustard Seed]

If you don’t want you don’t have to. I got the explanation.

At this point, you do not have the explanation. You are a "Unitarian" by extra biblical doctrine. You are convicted that the TriUnity of God is a lie and you are not here to listen, but to teach.

I could show you every scripture and you will be Hard hearted to it, because you are full of extra biblical teachings of men. Bow to Jesus as Your God, or Don't. I have Faith in the Goodness of God towards all mankind. However, your theological life will be full of pain, frustration and forced denial of scripture as it is directly in front of you. I say this out of Love, but your understanding of scripture is not Conformed to Jesus, who is the very LIVING TRUTH. Only God is Good. Only God is Truth.

All Love to you, in the name of Jesus, Sibling in Jesus, who is partially blinded by the god of the system of this World, to Who HE is.

 

[Mustard Seed]

I didn’t quite get weather you are you asking and leaving me to guess or answering

If you deny this, nothing else will matter. You are here to sway others, believing that you, yourself have the true light in this matter. I Love you, Sibling in Jesus. I have had this discussion far too many times to deny how circular it would remain for 10000 pages of back and forth.

 

[LeviR]

If you deny this, nothing else will matter. You are here to sway others, believing that you, yourself have the true light in this matter. I Love you, Sibling in Jesus. I have had this discussion far too many times to deny how circular it would remain for 10000 pages of back and forth.

Can’t you see that the idea that Jesus has two natures, two souls, two minds and two wills is made up?
They spent a couple hundred years making it up.
And why? Because they misinterpreted Jesus’ words.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Can’t you see that the idea that Jesus has two natures, two souls, two minds and two wills is made up?
They spent a couple hundred years making it up.
And why? Because they misinterpreted Jesus’ words.

The duelism was a result of Gnosticism … Augustine’s doctrine of Original Sin made flesh wicked, which is a gnostic teaching.

There are and always have been Father, Son and Holy Ghost… but, as surely as there are the three, these Three are One.

Jesus was indeed God among us, one with us in Flesh, in Whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelled.

All of the extra biblical doctrines were to preserve the Gospel… but as always… what man does with good intentions doesn’t always work out for the best.

Modelism is too simple

Trinity is too over divided

TriUne and revealed within scripture is where I keep it.

These 3 testify.

Is it a little beyond my human mind? Sure. That’s God.

 

[LeviR]

The duelism was a result of Gnosticism … Augustine’s doctrine of Original Sin made flesh wicked, which is a gnostic teaching.

The mortal flesh is where sin dwells. If sin is evil then where it dwells is also.

 

[Consecrated Life]

He didn’t directly call himself the Father or God. I’m just clarifying.

He certainly did call Himself God.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Consecrated Life]

One of the reasons the Jews wanted to kill Jesus was because Jesus was identifying himself as God, the Father. Although that was true, Jesus explained that he was the son of God.

Would I be correct then in assuming then that you share the same belief as Runningman that the Father created the Son ?

 

[sandyj]

Would I be correct then in assuming then that you share the same belief as Runningman that the Father created the Son ?

I thought God created Jesus so I believe the father created the son.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I thought God created Jesus so I believe the father created the son.

Was there a scripture you read that convinced you of this ?

 

[Mustard Seed]

The mortal flesh is where sin dwells. If sin is evil then where it dwells is also.

That is literally Gnostic teaching. Gnostics went so far as to have Jesus as a disembodied Spirit in some of the Gnostic gospels that were rejected to Canon. Sin is missing the mark. God is the mark.

The Law was made to show our need for Jesus and bind the work of Satan. Sin does not “dwell” in mortal flesh. Sin is transgression of Law.

This is my opinion.

 

[sandyj]

Was there a scripture you read that convinced you of this ?

Yes I think it was Matthew. When jesus walked on water I think.

 

[LeviR]

He certainly did call Himself God.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

There again they tried to kill him because he was identifying himself a God.
But like before, Jesus could say “I am the son of God”.
And they still would try to kill him.
And if he said other men to whom the Word of God had come are called God also.
They still want to kill him because their ears were made dull of hearing.

 

[Dmytro]

At this point, you do not have the explanation. You are a "Unitarian" by extra biblical doctrine. You are convicted that the TriUnity of God is a lie and you are not here to listen, but to teach.

I could show you every scripture and you will be Hard hearted to it, because you are full of extra biblical teachings of men. Bow to Jesus as Your God, or Don't. I have Faith in the Goodness of God towards all mankind. However, your theological life will be full of pain, frustration and forced denial of scripture as it is directly in front of you. I say this out of Love, but your understanding of scripture is not Conformed to Jesus, who is the very LIVING TRUTH. Only God is Good. Only God is Truth.

All Love to you, in the name of Jesus, Sibling in Jesus, who is partially blinded by the god of the system of this World, to Who HE is.

You label me Unitarian while Free Tritheist so I'm confused You seem to be heavily breaking ToS with your post, please don't do it again.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The mortal flesh is where sin dwells. If sin is evil then where it dwells is also.

Are you advocating, as Jesus did in Matt 5:29-30, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." ?
If sin actually dwelt in our skin and bones, wouldn't it be wise to cut away the most sinful parts ?
(Isn't it funny that no false doctrine has ever flourished with that teaching...eh ?)

The actual "cutting" occurs at our baptism into Christ's death. (Rom 6:6, Col 2:11-12)
There is no sin in the holy, who have been reborn of God's seed.

 

[LeviR]

Are you advocating, as Jesus did in Matt 5:29-30, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." ?
If sin actually dwelt in our skin and bones, wouldn't it be wise to cut away the most sinful parts ?
(Isn't it funny that no false doctrine has ever flourished with that teaching...eh ?)

The actual "cutting" occurs at our baptism into Christ's death. (Rom 6:6, Col 2:11-12)
There is no sin in the holy, who have been reborn of God's seed.

Sin dwells in the flesh because the flesh has its own desires which care nothing for any laws. It only wants what it wants. And that’s why it can be your master.

 

[Mustard Seed]

You label me Unitarian while Free Tritheist so I'm confused You seem to be heavily breaking ToS with your post, please don't do it again.

Do you believe that "only the Father" is God?
Do you believe that "The Son" is created?
Do you believe that the "Holy Spirit" is simply a reference to the active "force or will" of the Father upon a person?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Sin dwells in the flesh because the flesh has its own desires which care nothing for any laws. It only wants what it wants. And that’s why it can be your master.

This is not a positive teaching, IMO. This is the very reason that Monks like Luther were on their knees, ascending and descending concrete stairs. The Prophets of Ba'al literally cut their own flesh. God did not create "Evil Flesh", nor did sin impose itself within flesh. Evil is born within the hearts of creation, through abuse of Individual Libertarian Sovereign Agency. It can be imposed through deceit. It's first presence recorded was the iniquity of Satan, lying to Eve, to deceive her.

This is my opinion.

 

[LeviR]

This is not a positive teaching, IMO. This is the very reason that Monks like Luther were on their knees, ascending and descending concrete stairs. The Prophets of Ba'al literally cut their own flesh. God did not create "Evil Flesh", nor did sin impose itself within flesh. Evil is born within the hearts of creation, through abuse of Individual Libertarian Sovereign Agency. It can be imposed through deceit. It's first presence recorded was the iniquity of Satan, lying to Eve, to deceive her.

This is my opinion.

I don’t know if you are one who denies the teaching of Paul, some do.
If not, I recommend the book of Romans.