There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[Free]

And you are right, since he was the first one who revealed himself to us as opposite to all those man-made idols, so called gods, doctrines and concepts now all divine attributes are defined in relation to the Father. So when NT says the Word was God it means the Word was of the same nature as the Father, the only true God.

And this contradicts what you just said above, that the Father "is the only true God." If "the Word was of the same nature as the Father," then it necessarily follows that the Word is also the true God. That is the only logical conclusion. Your position is self-contradictory.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that. If humans can be called that than even more he is worthy. He is God by nature and God by his deeds and authority.

Where are humans ever called God? And, again, if Jesus is "God by nature," then the only logical conclusion is that he is also truly God in the very same sense as the Father.

No, there are three divine. Jesus was revealed to us as coequal to the Father in terms of nature.

Again, your position is entirely self-contradictory. Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) cannot be a completely separate divine being from the Father if he is "coequal to the Father in terms of nature." For some reason, you essentially believe all that is necessary for Trinitarianism, but then pull up short and just keep stating "there are three divine." But, that can only leave you with the heresy of tritheism, despite God's repeated assertion that he is the only God.

You are saying there is only one being called God and use 'what' for him... or for it... But I don't care, glory to God I know the Three and has no need in any man-made doctrines.

I didn't use "what" for God in any sense that means He is an it. God is three persons, one substance. That is precisely how all three are truly and completely God, yet remaining one being that is God.

Glory to God I have the best possible option to simply believe in what was revealed to us. Throw out those labels they are just meant to prevent from seeing the true option. I will gladly and without any hesitation throw out everything for the sake of Truth because 'my position' is simply what NT says and I got no problems, I'm not a unitarian not believing Jesus is like God by nature or the Holy Spirit is a person. I need nothing except the Three.

But just for curiosity, what problems do you believe I have believing only in the Three?

The best possible option? Not at all. You are believing and teaching heresy. Your position has no place in Scripture. You may not be a unitarian, but you are tritheist. That means you're making God out to be a liar:

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

I choose to believe Yahweh when he says that he is the only one and that there never has been nor will be another. This is also repeated by Jesus and the writers of the NT. There simply cannot be three divine beings who share the same nature who are not also the one God. That's a logical and biblical impossibility.

 

[Dmytro]

And this contradicts what you just said above, that the Father "is the only true God."

These are Jesus' words not mine.

If "the Word was of the same nature as the Father," then it necessarily follows that the Word is also the true God. That is the only logical conclusion. Your position is self-contradictory.

Hebrews 1
1 God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets,
2 in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,
3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.

Here is what the Son is: Yahweh's heir, the one through whom the Father does everything, the radiance of the Father's glory, his perfect representation, the one of the same nature as the Father. In the verse above I see only the Father and the Son. No trinity.

Where are humans ever called God?

Psalm 82, John 10:35

And, again, if Jesus is "God by nature," then the only logical conclusion is that he is also truly God in the very same sense as the Father.

See the citation from Hebrews above. It's perfect.

Again, your position is entirely self-contradictory. Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) cannot be a completely separate divine being from the Father if he is "coequal to the Father in terms of nature."

But he definitely is. I clearly see three divine persons in the NT, and no trinity. I'm not adding or subtracting anything this is just a plain fact. Just read the gospel of John impartially, paying specific attention to them three, to their relations, to Jesus' obedience, to the Father's love and how the Father passes everything and his own authority and attributes to Jesus and you'll probably see. There is an abundance of relations between them three in that gospel that are hard to notice while mixing everything in some trinity.

For some reason, you essentially believe all that is necessary for Trinitarianism, but then pull up short and just keep stating "there are three divine." But, that can only leave you with the heresy of tritheism, despite God's repeated assertion that he is the only God.

Yes, I keep stating that because this is really important, this is my finding, the revelation of God through Jesus to me, something I want to share with others. Trinity is a human-made concept, doctrine and not Yahweh God the Father. It's a sin to pray to or worship a concept/ doctrine and not to the true God and I'm happy to be believing not in some intellectual or imaginary stuff but in those who I clearly see acting in the NT. I don't even want to know what those scary labels like tritheism mean. Better to read the gospels than to waste time on that. And by the way here is the passage where Jesus teaches that the Farther and not trinity should be worshiped

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, that an hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews.
23 But an hour is coming—and now is here—when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for indeed the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers.
24 God is spirit, and the ones who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (the one called Christ); “whenever that one comes, he will proclaim all things to us.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I, the one speaking to you, am he.

Again I see the Father who is to be worshiped and seeks people to worship him and see Jesus. And no trinity.
No offence but it seems like trinitarians worship what they do not know instead of the Father.

I didn't use "what" for God in any sense that means He is an it. God is three persons, one substance. That is precisely how all three are truly and completely God, yet remaining one being that is God.

I still cannot fully comprehend what you mean. That god, who is three persons and one substance, is he a person himself or simply a concept/ doctrine? If he's a person then please show him speaking, acting etc. in the NT. I personally see only the Three.

The best possible option? Not at all. You are believing and teaching heresy. Your position has no place in Scripture.

Your accusations must be scripturally supported and not just words. Do you want me to quote all the NT showing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit acting as separate persons? Or deity of Jesus is unbiblical in your view?
Are you able to quote one NT verse where trinitarian god in three persons and one substance is speaking or acting in some other way?

You may not be a unitarian, but you are tritheist. That means you're making God out to be a liar:
Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

I choose to believe Yahweh when he says that he is the only one and that there never has been nor will be another. This is also repeated by Jesus and the writers of the NT. There simply cannot be three divine beings who share the same nature who are not also the one God. That's a logical and biblical impossibility.

I don't care about your labels and I'm by no means making God a liar but trying to understand what he revealed to us. But you trinitarians have chosen to believe what you think is true and not to follow God's revelation and will. Of course it's the Father and not human-made things of wood or metal or some doctrines/ concepts like trinity, who is the only true God -- which you by the way break by not worshiping him but god invented by your theologians -- this is how he revealed to us in OT, and all those quotes are true. There is nothing like him in all creation. And when the time came he sent to us from heavens the Word, his Son, who was with him in the beginning and was God by nature. Such was his will, I understand it and receive the one he sent. Jesus is not some pagan god, but the one approved to us by the Father so this is his will and so it must be acceptable. But you see how by denying that Jesus is a divine person, in practice you're in accordance with those who killed him? You differ from unitarians and watchtower society members only to some extent until the truth about the Three is not made clear to you by someone through emphasising it which is exactly what i'm doing. Then you start putting on labels and deny Jesus in the same way.

 

[Free]

These are Jesus' words not mine.

Okay, but then you're just pitting Scripture against Scripture, and that only creates problems. Not to mention that it doesn't actually address what I stated. Do you deny that God is the only one who has the nature of God? Or do you just deny that there is only one God?

Hebrews 1
1 God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets,
2 in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world,
3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.

Here is what the Son is: Yahweh's heir, the one through whom the Father does everything, the radiance of the Father's glory, his perfect representation, the one of the same nature as the Father. In the verse above I see only the Father and the Son. No trinity.

That is a great passage that shows that Jesus is truly God. Hence, part of the foundation of the Trinity.

Psalm 82, John 10:35

Again, where are humans called God? You provided two passages which simply show that some humans, as God's chosen representatives, have been called "sons of God." The problem there is that they are not even sons of God in the same sense that Jesus is the Son of God.

See the citation from Hebrews above. It's perfect.

Yes, I agree.

But he definitely is. I clearly see three divine persons in the NT, and no trinity. I'm not adding or subtracting anything this is just a plain fact.

I agree that there are three divine persons; that is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the very reasons the doctrine exists. The big problem is that you must be able to explain and account for the fact that there are three persons who share the same divine nature but there is only one God who has that nature. Again, that is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity exists—it explains how three divine persons can each be truly God, yet there is only one being that is God; they are the one God.

Just read the gospel of John impartially, paying specific attention to them three, to their relations, to Jesus' obedience, to the Father's love and how the Father passes everything and his own authority and attributes to Jesus and you'll probably see. There is an abundance of relations between them three in that gospel that are hard to notice while mixing everything in some trinity.

Asking people to "just read the gospel of John impartially" isn't useful, since I believe I am reading it impartially and you are not. We all interpret what we read, using many different filters through which we come to an understanding.

The main problem for you is that Yahweh has said numerous times that he is the only God and that there never will be another. So, if God is the only one that can have the divine nature of God, that nature which makes God God, then it necessarily follows that the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot be separate beings with the divine nature of God, or you end up with three gods. That is a serious error.

Simply saying there are three divine persons and leaving it at that doesn’t solve the problem.

Yes, I keep stating that because this is really important, this is my finding,

It is important, but three divine persons has been believed by Christians since the beginning.

the revelation of God through Jesus to me, something I want to share with others.

It cannot be a revelation of God to you if you believe in three gods, as it contradicts Scripture.

Trinity is a human-made concept, doctrine and not Yahweh God the Father.

Please provide just one verse that shows only the Father is Yahweh.

It's a sin to pray to or worship a concept/ doctrine and not to the true God and I'm happy to be believing not in some intellectual or imaginary stuff but in those who I clearly see acting in the NT.

No one is praying or worshipping a concept. The Trinity reveals who God truly is, and Jesus said we are to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

I don't even want to know what those scary labels like tritheism mean. Better to read the gospels than to waste time on that.

You’re basically saying you don’t want to actually put in serious study into the very things you’re reading and believing. Tritheism should be obvious—it’s belief in three gods, which goes against God’s own claims.

And by the way here is the passage where Jesus teaches that the Farther and not trinity should be worshiped

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, that an hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews.
23 But an hour is coming—and now is here—when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for indeed the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers.
24 God is spirit, and the ones who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (the one called Christ); “whenever that one comes, he will proclaim all things to us.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I, the one speaking to you, am he.

Again I see the Father who is to be worshiped and seeks people to worship him and see Jesus. And no trinity.
No offence but it seems like trinitarians worship what they do not know instead of the Father.

And, yet, Jesus was worshiped several times. Add to that that you say the Son and Holy Spirit share the same nature as the Father, and it necessarily follows that they are worthy of worship because they are truly God as well. Hence why Jesus accepted his disciples’ worship without rebuke.

 

[Free]

I still cannot fully comprehend what you mean. That god, who is three persons and one substance, is he a person himself or simply a concept/ doctrine? If he's a person then please show him speaking, acting etc. in the NT.

Of course you can’t fully comprehend it; no one can. But, the Bible clearly reveals that there are three divine persons, that these persons are coequal and coeternal, and that there is, and ever will be, only one God. That leaves us with three persons in one being that is God.

I personally see only the Three.

Yes, you see and believe polytheism, which is a very serious error.

Your accusations must be scripturally supported and not just words. Do you want me to quote all the NT showing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit acting as separate persons? Or deity of Jesus is unbiblical in your view?

Nothing you have stated disagrees with the doctrine of the Trinity. It seems you haven’t actually studied what the doctrine of the Trinity states. That is likely where your disagreement with it lies.

Are you able to quote one NT verse where trinitarian god in three persons and one substance is speaking or acting in some other way?

But, you’ve been saying that you see three persons. That is the Trinity.

I don't care about your labels and I'm by no means making God a liar but trying to understand what he revealed to us.

Then you must understand the most fundamental thing about God—he is the only God and, therefore, the only one who has the nature of God, since that is what makes him God.

But you trinitarians have chosen to believe what you think is true and not to follow God's revelation and will. Of course it's the Father and not human-made things of wood or metal or some doctrines/ concepts like trinity, who is the only true God -- which you by the way break by not worshiping him but god invented by your theologians -- this is how he revealed to us in OT, and all those quotes are true. There is nothing like him in all creation. And when the time came he sent to us from heavens the Word, his Son, who was with him in the beginning and was God by nature. Such was his will, I understand it and receive the one he sent. Jesus is not some pagan god, but the one approved to us by the Father so this is his will and so it must be acceptable. But you see how by denying that Jesus is a divine person, in practice you're in accordance with those who killed him? You differ from unitarians and watchtower society members only to some extent until the truth about the Three is not made clear to you by someone through emphasising it which is exactly what i'm doing. Then you start putting on labels and deny Jesus in the same way.

Again, please do some actual study on the doctrine of the Trinity. I have never denies that Jesus is a divine person; the Trinity fully affirms that. You, however, don’t understand the implications of that and end up with tritheism, which isn’t a whole lot better than the limitless gods of Mormonism.

It seems that you have not really thought through your position very well as it contradicts the Bible at two very fundamental points: 1) that there is only one God and 2) only God has the nature of God; that is what makes him God.

 

[Dmytro]

Okay, but then you're just pitting Scripture against Scripture, and that only creates problems. Not to mention that it doesn't actually address what I stated. Do you deny that God is the only one who has the nature of God? Or do you just deny that there is only one God?

Let's better put it this way: do you consciously reject Jesus' words that the Father is the only true God? Do you deny it?

That is a great passage that shows that Jesus is truly God. Hence, part of the foundation of the Trinity.

This is what you want it to be but it's not. But ok.

Again, where are humans called God? You provided two passages which simply show that some humans, as God's chosen representatives, have been called "sons of God." The problem there is that they are not even sons of God in the same sense that Jesus is the Son of God.

Humans are called gods here:

Psalm 82
1 God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods.
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah
3 Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan;
provide justice to the afflicted and the poor.
4 Rescue the helpless and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They do not know or consider.
They go about in the darkness,
so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I have said, “You are gods,
and sons of the Most High, all of you.
7 However, you will die like men,
and you will fall like one of the princes.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
because you shall inherit all the nations.

And Jesus' point here:
John 10
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?
35 If he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—
36 do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37 If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me.
38 But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

is that if God himself called humans of a high status 'gods', so Jesus himself is even more worthy to be called 'the Son of God', which is almost identical to 'God', because he is in the Father and the Father is in him. Thomas called him 'my God' and he is worthy but properly that title belongs to the Father only. This is just a fact based on the usage of 'God' in NT.

I agree that there are three divine persons; that is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the very reasons the doctrine exists. The big problem is that you must be able to explain and account for the fact that there are three persons who share the same divine nature but there is only one God who has that nature. Again, that is precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity exists—it explains how three divine persons can each be truly God, yet there is only one being that is God; they are the one God.

You're saying you agree that there are three different persons but at the same time you don't believe they are separate beings. But 'person' in regular sense which I also apply talking about Yahweh the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is always a separate being. So in fact you, whether intentionally or not are just using the term in the way it doesn't mean 'person'.
You have ignored quote from Matthew 3:16-17 I provided, and my question under it. You've failed to comment on The Apostle's Creed proclaiming belief in three divine persons and beings and doesn't mentioning later trinity concept/ doctrine at all.
With all that been said you're definitely not showing openness and ability to keep sincere conversation but instead are pushing your narratives and throwing accusations. It's not possible to explain something or have fruitful discussion in this way. Even Jesus was not able.

Asking people to "just read the gospel of John impartially" isn't useful, since I believe I am reading it impartially and you are not. We all interpret what we read, using many different filters through which we come to an understanding.
The main problem for you is that Yahweh has said numerous times that he is the only God and that there never will be another. So, if God is the only one that can have the divine nature of God, that nature which makes God God, then it necessarily follows that the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot be separate beings with the divine nature of God, or you end up with three gods. That is a serious error.

Your problem is that you are ignoring questions and arguments that don't contribute to your point of view, forcing your reasoning and trying to make opponent follow your own way of thinking, but I'm not going to do that. What I'm saying is based on what was revealed to us by God through Jesus. What you're saying is rooted in unwillingness to accept God's revelation through Jesus. You just stick to your understanding of God's words in OT. I understand what you quoted in a different way in the light of what the Father, the only true God revealed about himself through Jesus in NT.

Simply saying there are three divine persons and leaving it at that doesn’t solve the problem.

I don't have the problem you're talking about. I've tried enough but I can't explain to you. Solve it for yourself.

It is important, but three divine persons has been believed by Christians since the beginning.
It cannot be a revelation of God to you if you believe in three gods, as it contradicts Scripture.

This is what the Gospel says:
Matthew 3
16 Now after he[g] was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened[h] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming[i] upon him.
17 And behold, there was[j] a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

I believe what I see and hear.

Please provide just one verse that shows only the Father is Yahweh.

It is clear that the Father is God of the OT. That one's name is Yahweh and hence the Father's name is Yahweh. Jesus' name is 'Yahweh salvation' not Yahweh. There are of course prophecies where Yahweh promised to come to his people and then Jesus came instead of him or let's better say under his name. But this is just what Jesus is always doing since the creation of the world: doing God's works under his name. That doesn't mean he's Yahweh.

No one is praying or worshipping a concept. The Trinity reveals who God truly is, and Jesus said we are to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
You’re basically saying you don’t want to actually put in serious study into the very things you’re reading and believing. Tritheism should be obvious—it’s belief in three gods, which goes against God’s own claims.

Please stop for a while and listen to yourself. You're saying so dramatically like I'm believing in Astarte, Zeus and Osiris for example. But that's not the case! I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the every single thing they revealed about themselves in both OT and NT, what I've been able to grasp of course. So what's wrong with that? Jesus said somebody must know the Father and him but not trinity to be saved. I know them both.

And, yet, Jesus was worshiped several times. Add to that that you say the Son and Holy Spirit share the same nature as the Father, and it necessarily follows that they are worthy of worship because they are truly God as well. Hence why Jesus accepted his disciples’ worship without rebuke.

He's definitely worthy. He came from the Father, said all the words the Father commanded him to say and did all the works. Showed he loves us so much. Got the deamons to fleeing when they heard him talk. Healed and raised up the dead. Was obedient to the Father and died on the cross to save us. Was in Sheol for three days and was raised by the Father through the Holy Spirit. Was snatched to the very throne of God in heavens. He's going to come back from the heavens to the earth to defeat the Adversary, put this evil age to the end and bring us to the Father's and his eternal Kingdom. This is why he's worthy to worship and not because he is God in terms of person. I

It's too late here, I'll try to answer to the rest tomorrow.

 

[Free]

Let's better put it this way: do you consciously reject Jesus' words that the Father is the only true God? Do you deny it?

Not at all, but that doesn't preclude Jesus (or the Holy Spirit) from also being truly God just as the Father is. Context is king.

This is what you want it to be but it's not. But ok.

It certainly does. Even just verse 2:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

That is supported just a little later when the Father says this about the Son:

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Note that that is a quote from here, of Yahweh:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

So, we have the Father applying a passage about Yahweh, to the Son. Either the writer of Hebrews is seriously wrong, or Jesus is also Yahweh because he is equal in divine nature, as you have stated.

Humans are called gods here:

Psalm 82
1 God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods.
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah
3 Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan;
provide justice to the afflicted and the poor.
4 Rescue the helpless and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They do not know or consider.
They go about in the darkness,
so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I have said, “You are gods,
and sons of the Most High, all of you.
7 However, you will die like men,
and you will fall like one of the princes.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
because you shall inherit all the nations.

And Jesus' point here:
John 10
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?
35 If he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—
36 do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37 If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me.
38 But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

is that if God himself called humans of a high status 'gods',

They are called "gods" because they are God's representatives as judges, but they are not actual deity. Humans are not called God, as in the one true God who is deity. I used a capital "G" because it is important. Humans are never called God.

The point is that you are conflating two different uses of theos. Jesus is the unique Son of God, being truly God in the same way as and equal to the Father. Jesus is God in the flesh; truly God and truly man.

so Jesus himself is even more worthy to be called 'the Son of God', which is almost identical to 'God', because he is in the Father and the Father is in him. Thomas called him 'my God' and he is worthy but properly that title belongs to the Father only. This is just a fact based on the usage of 'God' in NT.

Yet, Thomas does call Jesus his God, in the same way the Father is his God. It would have been blasphemy for Thomas to call Jesus God if Jesus was not actually so, yet Jesus said nothing.

You're saying you agree that there are three different persons but at the same time you don't believe they are separate beings.

Of course they are not separate beings; that would make them three gods, which is unbiblical. God himself says many times that he is the only God and there never will be another. Yet, you correctly state that the Son and the Holy Spirit share in the nature of God and are equal with the Father. This is a significant problem for your position.

If they are equal in nature, as you state, yet are separate beings, then you have three gods, which goes completely against Scripture. Any position, even yours, that claims to be based on the biblical revelation of God, must make sense of how there can be only one being that is God, yet three "persons" who are equal in divine nature.

But 'person' in regular sense which I also apply talking about Yahweh the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is always a separate being. So in fact you, whether intentionally or not are just using the term in the way it doesn't mean 'person'.

Again, please study the doctrine of the Trinity. "Person" has always been used in a loose sense, for well over 1,000 years, as an approximation for what is revealed regarding the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In regards to the Trinity, it is used in a different sense than how we use it of humans.

And, again, please provide just one verse that shows only the Father is Yahweh.

 

[Free]

You have ignored quote from Matthew 3:16-17 I provided, and my question under it. You've failed to comment on The Apostle's Creed proclaiming belief in three divine persons and beings and doesn't mentioning later trinity concept/ doctrine at all.
With all that been said you're definitely not showing openness and ability to keep sincere conversation but instead are pushing your narratives and throwing accusations. It's not possible to explain something or have fruitful discussion in this way. Even Jesus was not able.

You must have me confused with someone else. I did address Matt 3:16-17 and the Apostle's Creed, HERE. And, I’ve stated conclusions based on reasoning, but where have I made accusations?

I've asked you to provide one verse stating that just the Father is Yahweh. Have you done that?

Your problem is that you are ignoring questions and arguments that don't contribute to your point of view, forcing your reasoning and trying to make opponent follow your own way of thinking, but I'm not going to do that.

You might want to rethink that considering I've just shown that to not be true, and that you have yet to answer something and are forcing your reasoning. Be careful in pointing things out you claim others are doing when you're doing them yourself.

What I'm saying is based on what was revealed to us by God through Jesus. What you're saying is rooted in unwillingness to accept God's revelation through Jesus. You just stick to your understanding of God's words in OT. I understand what you quoted in a different way in the light of what the Father, the only true God revealed about himself through Jesus in NT.

I don't have the problem you're talking about. I've tried enough but I can't explain to you. Solve it for yourself.

Yes, you do have the problem I'm talking about. I know you like to think what you're saying is based on revelation, and it is to a point, but the problem is that you end up with three gods, which is the heresy of tritheism. You're stuck between Trinitarianism and the polytheism of Mormonism.

This is what the Gospel says:
Matthew 3
16 Now after he[g] was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened[h] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming[i] upon him.
17 And behold, there was[j] a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

I believe what I see and hear.

And I don't disagree with any of that; no Trinitarian does.

It is clear that the Father is God of the OT. That one's name is Yahweh and hence the Father's name is Yahweh.

Again, please provide just one verse that supports only the Father being Yahweh.

Jesus' name is 'Yahweh salvation' not Yahweh. There are of course prophecies where Yahweh promised to come to his people and then Jesus came instead of him or let's better say under his name. But this is just what Jesus is always doing since the creation of the world: doing God's works under his name. That doesn't mean he's Yahweh.

Please stop for a while and listen to yourself. You're saying so dramatically like I'm believing in Astarte, Zeus and Osiris for example. But that's not the case! I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the every single thing they revealed about themselves in both OT and NT, what I've been able to grasp of course. So what's wrong with that? Jesus said somebody must know the Father and him but not trinity to be saved. I know them both.

You essentially are believing in Astarte, Zeus, and Osiris; you just have biblical names in their place. Tritheism is tritheism and it is unbiblical. If you believe in three gods, you don't believe in the God of the Bible. There is and ever will be only one God; God himself said so.

He's definitely worthy. He came from the Father, said all the words the Father commanded him to say and did all the works. Showed he loves us so much. Got the deamons to fleeing when they heard him talk. Healed and raised up the dead. Was obedient to the Father and died on the cross to save us. Was in Sheol for three days and was raised by the Father through the Holy Spirit. Was snatched to the very throne of God in heavens. He's going to come back from the heavens to the earth to defeat the Adversary, put this evil age to the end and bring us to the Father's and his eternal Kingdom. This is why he's worthy to worship and not because he is God in terms of person.

Of course, but he's also worthy because he's also truly God in nature.

 

[donadams]

Different person than the Father!

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

One divine nature / being / substance

Three divine persons

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

God is Spirit, but if the father sends the spirit, and the father is the spirit, then the father would be sending himself?


If Jesus is only a man his name would have no power or authority!

If only the Father is God; then only the Father would have authority, and all things would be done on the name of the Father and not in the name of Jesus, only by the Father or the name of the Father would there be power and authority, but sacred scripture attributes power and authority to the name of Jesus!
Jn 14:6 Acts 4:12 Acts 3:6

Phil 2:10 and even every man is subject to the name of Jesus!

The father is god
The son is god
The Holy Spirit god

But there are not three gods but only one god! Deut 6:4

The father is lord
The son is lord
The Holy Spirit is lord

But there are not three lords but only one lord! Deut 6:4

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!

Thks

 

[donadams]

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus is creator / Jesus is divine!

John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Lk 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

(They sought to have him killed for claiming to be equal to God)

Mk 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

A father and son have the same nature.

The nature of the eternal Father is divine!

And in order to be eternal Father there must be an eternal offspring; the eternally begotten son of God” Jesus Christ!



Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Jn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Truth is knowledge

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Christ dwelt in body / Christ is God!

Solomon had wisdom, a greater than Solomon. Christ




Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The church of God is the body of Christ:

Ephesians 5:23
for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body.

1 Tim 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church of Christ is the church of God!

Christ is God!

 

[Dmytro]

Of course you can’t fully comprehend it; no one can. But, the Bible clearly reveals that there are three divine persons, that these persons are coequal and coeternal, and that there is, and ever will be, only one God. That leaves us with three persons in one being that is God.

Your meaning of 'person' doesn't correspond to a regular one. For me, 'person' is somebody as a separate being, but for you it means something which is not a separate being. Why don't you use some other term to honestly denote the difference?

Yes, you see and believe polytheism, which is a very serious error.

I told you many times that I believe in the Yahweh God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit - three divine beings. I believe they are persons and hence separate divine beings. Polytheism means faith in many false so called gods. So you consider Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be false, right?

Nothing you have stated disagrees with the doctrine of the Trinity. It seems you haven’t actually studied what the doctrine of the Trinity states. That is likely where your disagreement with it lies.

We use 'person' differently. Me - in a regular sense, you - in your own trinitarian way.

But, you’ve been saying that you see three persons. That is the Trinity.

See the explanation above.

Then you must understand the most fundamental thing about God—he is the only God and, therefore, the only one who has the nature of God, since that is what makes him God.

Who do you believe Yahweh, three times in one sentence, addressed in Gen. 1:26
26 And God said, “Let us make humankind in[am] our image and according to[an] our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven,[ao] and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

Again, please do some actual study on the doctrine of the Trinity. I have never denies that Jesus is a divine person; the Trinity fully affirms that. You, however, don’t understand the implications of that and end up with tritheism, which isn’t a whole lot better than the limitless gods of Mormonism.

Of course you deny Jesus being a person because 'person' means a separate being and you understand the term in your own trinitarian way...

It seems that you have not really thought through your position very well as it contradicts the Bible at two very fundamental points: 1) that there is only one God and 2) only God has the nature of God; that is what makes him God.

I believe that:
1. The Father is the only true God. Jesus' words, please approve or reject. Fully agrees with what God told in OT.
2. Yahweh God the Father is not the only one divine. See Gen. 1:26 and etc. and please read impartially the NT, especially Gospel of John, to believe what is approved by the Father that Jesus is a divine being came from the Father and sharing the same nature with him...

Let's discuss, maybe you disagree with something above.

God bless.

 

[Dmytro]

Not at all, but that doesn't preclude Jesus (or the Holy Spirit) from also being truly God just as the Father is. Context is king.


It certainly does. Even just verse 2:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)

That is supported just a little later when the Father says this about the Son:

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Note that that is a quote from here, of Yahweh:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

So, we have the Father applying a passage about Yahweh, to the Son. Either the writer of Hebrews is seriously wrong, or Jesus is also Yahweh because he is equal in divine nature, as you have stated.


They are called "gods" because they are God's representatives as judges, but they are not actual deity. Humans are not called God, as in the one true God who is deity. I used a capital "G" because it is important. Humans are never called God.

The point is that you are conflating two different uses of theos. Jesus is the unique Son of God, being truly God in the same way as and equal to the Father. Jesus is God in the flesh; truly God and truly man.

Wait wait... The Father is the ONLY. TRUE. GOD. This title is properly with several exceptions, which only confirm the rule, applied only to him. The fact that he is the only true God or Jesus' God doesn't mean Jesus is not the same as he by nature. The Father and Jesus are equally divine.

Yet, Thomas does call Jesus his God, in the same way the Father is his God. It would have been blasphemy for Thomas to call Jesus God if Jesus was not actually so, yet Jesus said nothing.

It would have been blasphemy if Jesus weren't divine or worthy. But he was and is, and the Father handed everything he has, everything, into Jesus' mighty hands. So he can be called Mighty God, the Father, The First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Of course they are not separate beings; that would make them three gods, which is unbiblical. God himself says many times that he is the only God and there never will be another. Yet, you correctly state that the Son and the Holy Spirit share in the nature of God and are equal with the Father. This is a significant problem for your position.

Got no problems. There are more than one divine beings. See Gen. 1:26 and etc. This is what was revealed to us in his person/ being and why Jesus is a stumbling block for trinitarians: he used to make himself equal to Yahweh God the Father while obviously being a separate being. I perceived and believe.

If they are equal in nature, as you state, yet are separate beings, then you have three gods, which goes completely against Scripture. Any position, even yours, that claims to be based on the biblical revelation of God, must make sense of how there can be only one being that is God, yet three "persons" who are equal in divine nature.
Again, please study the doctrine of the Trinity. "Person" has always been used in a loose sense, for well over 1,000 years, as an approximation for what is revealed regarding the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In regards to the Trinity, it is used in a different sense than how we use it of humans.

No, you use it differently because the scriptures clearly depicts them three as persons and separate beings and you wanna keep pretending being biblical while in fact you're some kind of modalists... Honestly acknowledge you reject them being separate persons in a regular sense. And then what is left to you if not turn to be a variation of modalism.

And, again, please provide just one verse that shows only the Father is Yahweh.

The Father is God of OT. There are many OT quotes in NT supporting this. He is the only true God so Yahweh is his name. Jesus' name is 'Jesus' not Yahweh. What I'm saying is hard to grasp for a biased mind. You believed in the trinity without asking for proofs or researching, just because you were taught so and now interrogate me asking to prove the truth. Better check whether trinity concept is really established on a firm scriptural basement.

God bless!

 

[donadams]

Isaiah 14:7
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the governmentshall be upon his shoulder: and hisname shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Dan 7:13-14
. . In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a
son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never
be destroyed.

● Phil 2:9-11 . . God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Blessed Trinity!

 

[donadams]

I call myself a Christian, neither trinitarian nor non-trinitarian because:

• Non-trinitarians. This is true with the ones I had discussions with, they try to undermine trinity concept because simply don't believe Jesus is God by nature. Also they tend not to believe the Holy Spirit is a person. Although some of their arguments make sense pointing out a controversy of trinity doctrine, their motivation is wrong and in my opinion they are just another kind of watchtower society members. Their attitude towards Jesus, the way they dishonour him ignoring clear scriptural and logical arguments looks the same. I consider them wrong and in a dangerous delusion if not even more.
• Trinitarians. Many of them have difficulties acknowledging the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are persons in a common meaning of the word. Others say Jesus and the Farther are the same person and so on and so forth. In my opinion this concept introduces some other being apart from the holy Three who revealed themself to us while making the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit inferior. This is wrong and is a delusion if not even more, but at least they don't deny Jesus and the Holy Spirit so there is some room for a conversation.

I personally stand on this: in both Old and New testament only these three equally divine persons revealed themselves to us:

• Yahweh God, the Father
• Jesus Christ his Son and our Lord
• the Holy Spirit

Not everything is crystal clear to me, there's still a lot to know, but I believe this is how it is supposed to be on the way to knowing the truth. So let's move further from basics and instead of wasting time proving Jesus is God by nature, which is obvious to everyone who is sincere and true, let's better try to think and calmly discuss what, in your opinion, is wrong with this plain and clear belief.

Please, in order not to waste time, do not express your opinions unless agree on basics: the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God by nature, the Holy Spirit is a person and God by nature.

Dogma: divine revelation!

3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.

God is infinite we are finite so we can never fully comprehend

 

[Free]

Your meaning of 'person' doesn't correspond to a regular one. For me, 'person' is somebody as a separate being, but for you it means something which is not a separate being. Why don't you use some other term to honestly denote the difference?

As I stated previously, ever since the word "person" was used in regards to the Trinity, well over 1,000 years ago, it has been understood to be just an approximation and not identical to how we use it for humans. Again, I strongly suggest you study the actual doctrine and history of the Trinity.

I told you many times that I believe in the Yahweh God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit - three divine beings.

Yes, that is the problem.

I believe they are persons and hence separate divine beings. Polytheism means faith in many false so called gods.

Polytheism is the belief in the existence of more than one god, regardless of whether or not one puts their faith in more than one. Only one being that is God in nature exists, and that is Yahweh.

So you consider Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be false, right?

Not at all. As I have stated several times, there is one being that is God, Yahweh, who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19).

We use 'person' differently. Me - in a regular sense, you - in your own trinitarian way.

Which doesn't matter. Trinitarians have defined it differently since the beginning as it is the closest English approximation, albeit an insufficient one, but that has always been acknowledged.

Who do you believe Yahweh, three times in one sentence, addressed in Gen. 1:26
26 And God said, “Let us make humankind in[am] our image and according to[an] our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven,[ao] and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

I don't understand what you're asking.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (ESV)

Your position cannot account for this; no position other than Trinitarianism can. We clearly see God talking to himself using plural pronouns in verse 26 when deciding to create humans. Then, in the very next verse, when it mentions God doing the creating, it switches to singular pronouns. So, there is one being that is God who refers to himself, at times, using plural pronouns. There is diversity within the one God.

Of course you deny Jesus being a person because 'person' means a separate being and you understand the term in your own trinitarian way...

Again, see the above. If you aren't going to do proper study to try and understand what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, then you probably shouldn't be arguing against it. Jesus is both truly God and truly man.

I believe that:
1. The Father is the only true God. Jesus' words, please approve or reject.

Which is to ignore the context.

Fully agrees with what God told in OT.

Except that 1) you have yet to provide one verse which shows that only the Father is Yahweh, and 2) passages such as Gen 1:26-27 show otherwise.

2. Yahweh God the Father is not the only one divine. See Gen. 1:26 and etc.

See the above.

and please read impartially the NT,

I've point out before that this sort of statement is pointless, since I do believe I am reading impartially. Don't presume that you're the one one reading impartially and I am not simply because I disagree with you.

especially Gospel of John, to believe what is approved by the Father that Jesus is a divine being came from the Father and sharing the same nature with him...

Only God is divine and there is only one God in existence. As I have pointed out previously, Yahweh himself says several times that he is the only God and there never will be another. And, Jesus agrees. That means God is the only divine being. It cannot mean there is one more, ever, never mind two more.

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Mar 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. (ESV)

Notice that God does not say that he doesn't know of another god that shouldn't be worshipped, but rather that he doesn't know of any other god, period, and that there never will be another. It has nothing to do with whether or not that other god is worshipped. There is and ever will be only one being that is God, and that is Yahweh.

 

[JLB]

Anyone who claims to be a Trinitarian but believes the Son and the Father are the same person, is not Trinitarian; that's Modalism/Oneness.

Amen!

 

[Free]

Wait wait... The Father is the ONLY. TRUE. GOD. This title is properly with several exceptions, which only confirm the rule, applied only to him. The fact that he is the only true God or Jesus' God doesn't mean Jesus is not the same as he by nature.

That is a logical impossibility. Again, only God has the nature of God, as that is precisely what makes him God in the first place. Any other that has the nature of God cannot be another being, since there is only one being that is God; Yahweh himself says so, and Jesus agrees.

The Father and Jesus are equally divine.

If Jesus is divine, if he is deity and has the same nature as the Father, then it necessarily follows (the logical conclusion) that Jesus is also truly God. It is absolutely impossible that Jesus is "equally divine" and not also truly God. That is what is given in the Bible and that is what we must make sense of, and that is exactly why the doctrine of the Trinity is the best explanation.

It would have been blasphemy if Jesus weren't divine or worthy. But he was and is, and the Father handed everything he has, everything, into Jesus' mighty hands. So he can be called Mighty God, the Father, The First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

I agree with all of that, except that Jesus can be called "the Father;" he cannot because he is not the Father. However, the Son is not a separate being that is "equally divine." Again, that is impossible. He is a distinct "person" within the one being that is God.

Got no problems. There are more than one divine beings.

Again, God himself says otherwise; he says he is the only one and ever will be. It's an insurmountable problem for your position.

See Gen. 1:26 and etc. This is what was revealed to us in his person/ being and why Jesus is a stumbling block for trinitarians: he used to make himself equal to Yahweh God the Father while obviously being a separate being. I perceived and believe.

Once more I request that you provide just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh. And, again, Gen 1:26 cannot be divorced from its context by ignoring verse 27--one being that is God, singular, who speaks to himself in the plural.

No, you use it differently because the scriptures clearly depicts them three as persons and separate beings and you wanna keep pretending being biblical

You're conflating "being" with "person" which is how we use it of people. When it comes to its use in defining the Trinity, it has always meant something different, yet similar; an English approximation for what is revealed in Scripture.

while in fact you're some kind of modalists...

No, I'm a trinitarian. Nothing I have said supports Modalism. Again, I strongly suggest you actually study the doctrine of the Trinity.

Honestly acknowledge you reject them being separate persons in a regular sense.

Of course, I reject them as "separate persons in a regular sense." There is nothing regular about God nor the three divine "persons," in the Trinitarian sense. I've pointed that out numerous times. But, if you are wanting to debate the Trinity, then you must understand the difference and debate accordingly.

The Father is God of OT. There are many OT quotes in NT supporting this. He is the only true God so Yahweh is his name.

Again, please provide just one verse that clearly shows that only the Father is Yahweh; not "God," but YHWH.

Jesus' name is 'Jesus' not Yahweh.

Of course it is. But as the preincarnate Son, before also becoming human and having two natures in the one person that is Jesus, his name was Yahweh.

What I'm saying is hard to grasp for a biased mind.

Again, statements like this are pointless since you are presuming you are the only one that isn't biased.

You believed in the trinity without asking for proofs or researching, just because you were taught so

This is just plain false. Who do you think you are to be so presumptuous? You know nothing about the hundreds of hours of my own study that I have done.

and now interrogate me asking to prove the truth.

Of course. If what you say is true, it will stand. But, so far, you have an insurmountable problem. Three divine persons means three gods; it cannot mean anything else.

Better check whether trinity concept is really established on a firm scriptural basement.

It certainly is.

 

[donadams]

Questions for free

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Why do we say Jesus is Lord?

Why do we say Jesus is the spiritual rock?

Why do we say Jesus is savior and redeemer?

Thks

 

[Dmytro]

I believe what Jesus said , " I and my Father are one " .

Believing what Jesus has said has always worked for me .

John14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

If you're not willing to explain your faith in your own words to make it known then ok. I also believe Jesus and his Father are one.

 

[Dmytro]

That is a logical impossibility. Again, only God has the nature of God, as that is precisely what makes him God in the first place. Any other that has the nature of God cannot be another being, since there is only one being that is God; Yahweh himself says so, and Jesus agrees.


If Jesus is divine, if he is deity and has the same nature as the Father, then it necessarily follows (the logical conclusion) that Jesus is also truly God. It is absolutely impossible that Jesus is "equally divine" and not also truly God. That is what is given in the Bible and that is what we must make sense of, and that is exactly why the doctrine of the Trinity is the best explanation.


I agree with all of that, except that Jesus can be called "the Father;" he cannot because he is not the Father. However, the Son is not a separate being that is "equally divine." Again, that is impossible. He is a distinct "person" within the one being that is God.


Again, God himself says otherwise; he says he is the only one and ever will be. It's an insurmountable problem for your position.


Once more I request that you provide just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh. And, again, Gen 1:26 cannot be divorced from its context by ignoring verse 27--one being that is God, singular, who speaks to himself in the plural.


You're conflating "being" with "person" which is how we use it of people. When it comes to its use in defining the Trinity, it has always meant something different, yet similar; an English approximation for what is revealed in Scripture.


No, I'm a trinitarian. Nothing I have said supports Modalism. Again, I strongly suggest you actually study the doctrine of the Trinity.


Of course, I reject them as "separate persons in a regular sense." There is nothing regular about God nor the three divine "persons," in the Trinitarian sense. I've pointed that out numerous times. But, if you are wanting to debate the Trinity, then you must understand the difference and debate accordingly.


Again, please provide just one verse that clearly shows that only the Father is Yahweh; not "God," but YHWH.


Of course it is. But as the preincarnate Son, before also becoming human and having two natures in the one person that is Jesus, his name was Yahweh.


Again, statements like this are pointless since you are presuming you are the only one that isn't biased.


This is just plain false. Who do you think you are to be so presumptuous? You know nothing about the hundreds of hours of my own study that I have done.


Of course. If what you say is true, it will stand. But, so far, you have an insurmountable problem. Three divine persons means three gods; it cannot mean anything else.


It certainly is.

Starting from the beginning Yahweh God, the Father, himself with his own words gave are numerous hints he's not alone. There are plenty of passages he was speaking of himself and somebody equal to him hidden until the proper time. Yahweh the Father the only true God - one, and his Son - second. The third is the Holy Spirit.

Gen. 1:26
26 And God said, “Let us make humankind in[am] our image and according to[an] our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven,[ao] and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

Gen. 11:7
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand each other’s language.”

Proverbs 9:10
10 The start of wisdom is fear of Yahweh,
and knowledge of the Holy Ones, insight.

Psalm 110:1
A declaration of Yahweh to my lord,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psalm 2​

2 Why are nations in tumult,
and countries plotting in vain?
2 The kings of the earth establish themselves,
and the rulers conspire together
against Yahweh and his anointed:
3 “Let us tear off their bonds,
and cast their cords from us!”
4 He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs.
The Lord derides them.
5 Then he speaks to them in his wrath,
and in his fury he terrifies them:
6 “But as for me, I have set my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”
7 I will tell the decree;
Yahweh said to me:
“You are my son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage,
and your possession the ends of the earth.
9 You will break them with an iron rod.
Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.”
10 So then, O kings, be wise.
Be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve Yahweh with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son
lest he be angry and you perish on the way,
for his anger burns quickly.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Isaiah 6:8
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying,
“Whom shall I send?
And who will go for us?”

Then, when Jesus came and revealed himself to the disciples apostle John proclaimed his faith in Jesus as the one who was in the beginning with God and who shares the same nature with God. He spoke not about one but two - God and the Word, Yahweh and Jesus

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that[a] has come into being.

What is considered to be the earliest creed explicitly states faith in:

• God, the Father creator of heaven and earth
• Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord
• The Holy Spirit

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

NT is all about Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
So my desire and the reason why I raised this topic, is that you all, who I had discussion here, one day, turn to them three from all your concepts, doctrines and beliefs. I also used to be a member of a baptists congregation but then Yahweh God the Father enlightened me and revealed to me himself and Jesus. Praise to Yahweh! I haven't studied that from man, nobody told me that. There's definitely must be Jesus' assembly somewhere here in this realm of lie and darkness and I'm sure I'm going to meet them sometime. Perhaps in the Kingdom of God.

I don't want to argue anymore but to bless. So may the light of Yahweh through the knowledge of him and his Son be with you!

 

[Free]

Starting from the beginning Yahweh God, the Father,

So, starting from the beginning, where is just one verse that clearly states that only the Father is Yahweh? I asked this several times and you have not provided any verse.

himself with his own words gave are numerous hints he's not alone. There are plenty of passages he was speaking of himself and somebody equal to him hidden until the proper time. Yahweh the Father the only true God - one, and his Son - second. The third is the Holy Spirit.

Gen. 1:26
26 And God said, “Let us make humankind in[am] our image and according to[an] our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven,[ao] and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

Gen. 11:7
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand each other’s language.”

That there are three divine persons has never been the issue.

Then, when Jesus came and revealed himself to the disciples apostle John proclaimed his faith in Jesus as the one who was in the beginning with God and who shares the same nature with God. He spoke not about one but two -

Again, this has never been the issue; Trinitarianism fully supports that.

God and the Word, Yahweh and Jesus

Again, I would like to see just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that[a] has come into being.

A verse that can only be understood in the light of the Trinity.

NT is all about Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It's about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So my desire and the reason why I raised this topic, is that you all, who I had discussion here, one day, turn to them three from all your concepts, doctrines and beliefs.

This doesn't make sense grammatically. What are you trying to say?

I also used to be a member of a baptists congregation but then Yahweh God the Father enlightened me and revealed to me himself and Jesus. Praise to Yahweh! I haven't studied that from man, nobody told me that.

How do you know that Yahweh revealed that, especially since Yahweh is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, according to the Bible, which is God's revelation?

There's definitely must be Jesus' assembly somewhere here in this realm of lie and darkness and I'm sure I'm going to meet them sometime. Perhaps in the Kingdom of God.

Again, I don't know what you are trying to say.

The insurmountable problem for your position is still this:

You stated that "The Father is the ONLY. TRUE. GOD." and "The Father and Jesus are equally divine." You also said that "the scriptures clearly depicts them three as persons and separate beings," referring, of course, to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus is divine, if he is deity and has the same nature as the Father, then it necessarily follows (the logical conclusion) that Jesus is also truly God. It is absolutely impossible that Jesus is "equally divine" and not also truly God. Again, only God has the nature of God, as that is precisely what makes him God in the first place. Any other that has the nature of God cannot be another being, since there is only one being that is God; Yahweh himself says so, and Jesus agrees.

I know you like to think what you're saying is based on revelation, and it is to a point, but the problem is that you end up with three gods, which is the heresy of tritheism. You're stuck between Trinitarianism and the polytheism of Mormonism. That is why the doctrine of the Trinity is the best explanation of the full revelation of God--three distinct, divine, coequal Persons within the one Being that is God (Yahweh).