There is an alternative to trinitarianism/ non-trinitarianism.

[LeviR]

Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Sorry includes all nations to the ends of the earth and the end of the world

The commission was given to the eleven only. They were to go to make disciples of all nationalities not just the Jews.

To “teach all nations” means to make disciples of the gentitles of all nationalities.

The eleven were able to speak all languages by the power of the Holy Spirit given to them.

To the uttermost part of the earth would mean that they should go as far as they could in the world they knew.. to its end

 

[Dmytro]

Hey Let's not get distracted from the original topic please:yes

 

[LeviR]

Trying to explain the Trinity is like trying to explain how an unstoppable force can exist at the same time as an immovable object.

 

[Free]

~99% of 'God' usage in NT = the Father.

Agreed.

The Father = only true God. The Father = Yahweh. This is clear until the opposite is proven.

I disagree and it has been proven. So, again I ask, where is just one verse that clearly states that only the Father is Yahweh?

Person = being. Do you agree with this?

No, not in the context of the Trinity. We’ve been over this, HERE. If you want to argue against the Trinity, then you must understand the terms that Trinitarians use.

'Persons' you keep talking about are not persons so trinitarianism is just a more elaborated variation of modalism rejecting the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit as persons/ beings.

Not at all. This just shows you don't actually know what the doctrine of the Trinity states and seem intent on not learning it, preferring to argue against a straw man. I've even provided the foundations and a basic definition of the Trinity, yet you still aren't trying to understand.

God himself through Jesus revealed and proved to those who are willing to accept that Jesus came from God and is equal to God and will come back from God to establish God's kingdom and will reign together with God eternally.

Exactly. I fully agree. This is where your reasoning is poor, though. If the Son is equal to the Father, which I completely agree with, then it necessarily follows that the Son is truly the God who is Yahweh. Why? Because only Yahweh has the nature of God and he says many times that he is the only God. The only logical conclusion, since there is only one being that is God, according to Yahweh himself, is that there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine "Persons" within the one Being that is God.

According to what we see in NT the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate persons/beings so your demand doesn't make sense for me. Jesus is 'Jesus', the Father is 'Yahweh', the Holy Spirit is 'the Holy Spirit'.

You just stated that "the Father is 'Yahweh'," and you also stated earlier in this post that "The Father = Yahweh." You have said that many times. You are making a claim and I asked you to provide " just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh". How does that not make sense?

Please quote 'trinity' or clear teaching about it.

I've given lots. There is only one God. There are three distinct, divine Persons. The three Persons are coequal and coeternal. They are also consubstantial, but that logically follows from the first three statements.

Like in Greek there is a definite article in English but trinitarian 'translators' ignored it while together with 'God'.

I don't understand your point here.

What 'light' are you talking about, you fabricate the scriptures.

It's a figure of speech.

I'm trying to say that this topic was raised to share knowledge about God with those who are seeking.

Okay, but why would you want to turn people from the truth of the Trinity?

By simply believing what the Gospel of John says.

Sounds pious but that is not how things work.

Please provide a corresponding verse.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,(ESV)

I would like to join Jesus' assembly but see none. Those who are blind, lie, deceive and fabricate the scriptures cannot be called Christians or have the Holy Spirit.

Then you will be completely on your own until Christ returns, which should be a huge red flag.

 

[Free]

You are stuck with that so called monotheism like it's something inherently good but in my opinion is simply unbelief and inability to comprehend what God have revealed.

Monotheism is inherently good, because Yahweh says he is the only God. Be careful in stating who is

Jews were monotheistic, they rejected and killed Jesus and will accept the Antichrist. Muslims are monotheistic, they reject Jesus and their god is false.

Neither of which is relevant to the discussion. The Jews are monotheistic because that is what God reveals plainly in Scripture:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
Jer 10:11 "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"
Jer 10:12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Jer 10:13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Jer 10:14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. The images he makes are a fraud; they have no breath in them.
Jer 10:15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery; when their judgment comes, they will perish.

Christians are monotheistic because it is a continuation of the same story given by God himself. If we are going to believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us, then we would do well to believe all that he reveals about himself, including that he is the only Being that is God.

Those who call themselves Christians are monotheistic and they state there is no the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit at all and believe some kind of modalism, rejecting them three, covering that with their ambiguous terminology and worshiping some other god in reality.

This has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity and shows you do not understand it at all. Please, do some actual study of what the doctrine of the Trinity states and then come back for discussion.

Polytheism is bad because its gods are myth or even demons.

Exactly, but polytheism is what you believe.

But I, unlike you all, believe in truly existing ones and got no problem with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three divine beings because they revealed themself to those who are able to receive.

This is polytheism. You correctly state that it's "bad because its gods are myth or even demons," but then continue by trying to justify your polytheism. Either polytheism is bad or it isn't. There is no such things as bad polytheism and good polytheism.

Yahweh says he is the only God and that there never will be another. I choose to believe what he said.

 

[Free]

But this applies to you also don't you see it? You began with the premise that there is only one divine being and now are trying to tailor scriptures to support this,

I begin with the premise that there is only one divine being because Yahweh himself says so. The Bible is unequivocal that there is only one Being that is truly God, which is why it has been foundational to Christianity from the very beginning. That is the only orthodox position in Christianity.

which ends up in rejecting the three and inventing a new god. In NT three divine beings: God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are clearly and indisputably manifested to us.

No, on both counts. Yahweh says he is only divine being and that there never will be another. The NT shows us that within that one Being that is God, there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine Persons.

No trinity no one apart from them. I interpret OT basing on superior revelation given in NT and thus basing on Jesus' words, the usage of 'God' in NT, etc. am stating the Father to be Yahweh of OT.

You believe in polytheism, which is heresy, because you are misusing the NT to misinterpret the OT. There is only one being that is God; that has not and cannot change. The NT does provide further revelation regarding the one being that is God, but that revelation is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the one God. And, again, please provide one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh.

Look from this angle and you'll see it's not against OT but adds to it and enhances it.

Your position is very much against the OT, which means it is also against the NT. The OT and the NT are in full agreement, but with the NT providing further revelation about the one Being that is God.

Trinity, on the other hand, is not a being, but rather a human-made concept or doctrine you need to reconcile NT with OT because of your premise. You've invented god for theological reason look how crazy it is.

The doctrine of the Trinity is what best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in Scripture--one being that is God who exists as three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine persons.

 

[Dmytro]

Trying to explain the Trinity is like trying to explain how an unstoppable force can exist at the same time as an immovable object.

Let's take NT as a final and the most complete revelation of God to humanity. So in NT there is no such being as trinity speaking or acting in any other way. It's always one of the three: the Father, Jesus his Son or the Holy Spirit that is doing something. Let's analyse Mathew 3:16-17:

16 And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him,
17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, `This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.'

Trinitarians usually use this verse to demonstrate trinity and say all thee 'persons' of it are depicted here in action. But this is not true. What we see here is:

• the Father speaking from heavens
• Jesus
• the Holy Spirit descending on him from the Father

no one more. Nobody unbiased would never claim the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit acting here are not beings. The same as John the Baptist or disciples or other people. Of course they are beings. Person in a regular sense (not in the sense trinitarians use it) is always a separate being. What we definitely don't see here doing something is a person trinitarians name 'trinity'.

So I claim that trinity is a human made concept and doctrine nothing more. And because it's controversial and irrational in it's core it's impossible to be explained. And taking all that's being said into account there is no need to explain it.
Let's better perfectly know these three divine beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. No other divine being really exist. Sorry for simple English.

 

[Dmytro]

Agreed.


I disagree and it has been proven. So, again I ask, where is just one verse that clearly states that only the Father is Yahweh?

But you yourself agreed that 99% of 'God' in NT reference the Father. This means that God in OT quotations is also the Father. God of OT got the name Yahweh. So the Father is Yahweh.

No, not in the context of the Trinity. We’ve been over this, HERE. If you want to argue against the Trinity, then you must understand the terms that Trinitarians use.

Then please use some other term for example 'hypostasis' instead of 'person'. I'm not arguing against the trinity. I'm presenting to you three divine persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit the only ones who are worthy to be trusted, loved and worshiped. Got no idea how you can trust, love and worship not a person.

Not at all. This just shows you don't actually know what the doctrine of the Trinity states and seem intent on not learning it, preferring to argue against a straw man. I've even provided the foundations and a basic definition of the Trinity, yet you still aren't trying to understand.

Trinity is a being that consists of three hypostases that are not themselves beings. Each hypostasis is trinity and is to some degree distinct from other hypostases. Something like that?

Exactly. I fully agree. This is where your reasoning is poor, though. If the Son is equal to the Father, which I completely agree with, then it necessarily follows that the Son is truly the God who is Yahweh. Why? Because only Yahweh has the nature of God and he says many times that he is the only God. The only logical conclusion, since there is only one being that is God, according to Yahweh himself, is that there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine "Persons" within the one Being that is God.

I understand the scriptures differently...
'God' is a status. Like president or senator. According to OT that status properly belongs only to a divine person named Yahweh. Yahweh is the only one revealed in OT that can be without blasphemy called 'God'. All other gods are either myths or demons. But there are hints in OT that Yahweh God is not the only one divine. There was someone else equal to him participating with him in his activities so that Yahweh used 'US' to address himself and that person. Then Yahweh God revealed to us Jesus. He with many signs confirmed to us that Jesus is equal to him, that Jesus was before his birth and even before creation, he handed over everything he had to Jesus, which wouldn't be possible if Jesus was nit divine and now Jesus is sitting in heavens besides Yahweh God. Apostle John states Jesus the Word was in the beginning (Genesis 1):

1. with God (with definite article)
2. and he was God (without definite article)

I'm not an expert in Greek but there are some commentaries explaining that like a noun with a definite article denotes an object while a noun without it properties or attributes of an object. Sorry once more I'm not an expert and my English is poor. Trinitarian so called 'translators' have chosen to ignore presence or absence of definite article while with 'God' despite the fact that, unlike in my native Ukrainian, there is definite article in English. So according to John 1:1 Jesus the Word in the beginning (prior to the creation of everything in Genesis 1) was besides a divine person called Yahweh God and had exactly the same attributes or properties of Yahweh God. Because Jesus in NT appeared in 'Son' status so Yahweh of OT who sent him in NT appeared in 'the Father' status and now he has 2 statuses 'God' and 'The Father'. So now we know three divine (including the Holy Spirit):

• Yahweh God the Father
• Jesus his Son
• The Holy Spirit

You just stated that "the Father is 'Yahweh'," and you also stated earlier in this post that "The Father = Yahweh." You have said that many times. You are making a claim and I asked you to provide " just one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh". How does that not make sense?

See the explanation above. Since the Father is God he is also Yahweh of OT. Jesus was also called 'God' several times in my opinion because:

• he has the same nature as Yahweh God
• he perfectly represents Yahweh in all his words and deeds so that the one who knows or sees him knows and sees also Yahweh God the Father.

I've given lots. There is only one God. There are three distinct, divine Persons. The three Persons are coequal and coeternal. They are also consubstantial, but that logically follows from the first three statements.

This isn't a Bible teaching but your interpretation, understanding of what the Bible says...

I don't understand your point here.
It's a figure of speech.
Okay, but why would you want to turn people from the truth of the Trinity?
Sounds pious but that is not how things work.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,(ESV)

that's too weak

Then you will be completely on your own until Christ returns, which should be a huge red flag.

Narrow path is ok for me, it leads to eternal life

 

[Dmytro]

Monotheism is inherently good, because Yahweh says he is the only God. Be careful in stating who is


Neither of which is relevant to the discussion. The Jews are monotheistic because that is what God reveals plainly in Scripture:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
Jer 10:11 "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"
Jer 10:12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Jer 10:13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Jer 10:14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge; every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. The images he makes are a fraud; they have no breath in them.
Jer 10:15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery; when their judgment comes, they will perish.

Christians are monotheistic because it is a continuation of the same story given by God himself. If we are going to believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us, then we would do well to believe all that he reveals about himself, including that he is the only Being that is God.


This has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity and shows you do not understand it at all. Please, do some actual study of what the doctrine of the Trinity states and then come back for discussion.


Exactly, but polytheism is what you believe.


This is polytheism. You correctly state that it's "bad because its gods are myth or even demons," but then continue by trying to justify your polytheism. Either polytheism is bad or it isn't. There is no such things as bad polytheism and good polytheism.

I believe in God The Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Seems like you don't. Ok

Yahweh says he is the only God and that there never will be another. I choose to believe what he said.

Jews who killed Jesus believed the same. I on the contrary believe in Jesus.

 

[Dmytro]

I begin with the premise that there is only one divine being because Yahweh himself says so. The Bible is unequivocal that there is only one Being that is truly God, which is why it has been foundational to Christianity from the very beginning. That is the only orthodox position in Christianity.


No, on both counts. Yahweh says he is only divine being and that there never will be another. The NT shows us that within that one Being that is God, there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine Persons.


You believe in polytheism, which is heresy, because you are misusing the NT to misinterpret the OT. There is only one being that is God; that has not and cannot change. The NT does provide further revelation regarding the one being that is God, but that revelation is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the one God. And, again, please provide one verse that clearly states only the Father is Yahweh.


Your position is very much against the OT, which means it is also against the NT. The OT and the NT are in full agreement, but with the NT providing further revelation about the one Being that is God.


The doctrine of the Trinity is what best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in Scripture--one being that is God who exists as three distinct, coequal, coeternal, divine persons.

I'm not saying there are three God. Yahweh is the only one with that status and he's also 'the Father' which is strictly according to both OT and NT. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God but they share the same divine properties with Yahweh God. Yahweh is God with definite article while Jesus and the Holy Spirit each one are God without a definite article which means they have the same attributes as Yahweh God. I guess it's clear now.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

• Yahweh God, the Father
• Jesus Christ his Son and our Lord
• the Holy Spirit

Not everything is crystal clear to me, there's still a lot to know, but I believe this is how it is supposed to be on the way to knowing the truth. So let's move further from basics and instead of wasting time proving Jesus is God by nature, which is obvious to everyone who is sincere and true, let's better try to think and calmly discuss what, in your opinion, is wrong with this plain and clear belief.

Please, in order not to waste time, do not express your opinions unless agree on basics: the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God by nature, the Holy Spirit is a person and God by nature.

The reason why not everything is clear to you is because your not understanding bible context. Isolating verses works to a degree But the bigger picture would draw you toward a trinitarian position. It makes sense that all 3 exist although its more dominant in new testament. The old testament has all 3 within its pages but its separation of the 3, showing them as 3 persons.

 

[JLB]

So I claim that trinity is a human made concept and doctrine nothing more.

Amen.

Whenever we see a man made word, it is usually because there is a man made concept involved.

The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit are one.

Not one in singularity but one in unity.

These three are one, what?

Some possible answers are:

One Spirit
One God
One Family
One LORD


I’m sure we will understand more on that Day.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Dmytro and thank you for making this thread.

I would like to comment that Christianity is fundamentally divided into either Trinitarianism or non-Trinitarianism. While you say you're neither, you actually seem to believe in one God known as YHWH, the Father while simultaneously saying that others who have the nature of God are also either the God perhaps a god. If I am understanding you correctly it would seem that your beliefs are that God is not exclusively a person named YHWH, but rather God is a thing and/or a nature. In that case, I am not sure if I agree with the titles you've assigned to yourself, but I would guess most, if not all, trins and non-trins will disagree with your general thesis, maybe more so after having taken unnecessary jabs at everyone.

I would love to get some clarification about whether or not you believe that having the nature of God makes someone God or not. It would seem you directly called YHWH the Father God while on the other hand you alluded to the Son and Holy Spirit both being "God by nature." This is what has led me to think you're possibly saying God isn't a single person, but rather God is a nature and therefore an it.


*In my best guess, you sound like a deist and that would make you a non-Trinitarian.

If I may follow up with some questions regarding your beliefs, it would be appreciated.

Will you please define what the nature of God is?​

​

2 Peter 1:4 says we can be sharers in the divine nature. In your view, is this the nature of God? If yes, do people become God or a god if they have the divine nature?​

​

Are there any examples you're aware of where Jesus said, did, or experienced a thought/feeling that meant he isn't God by nature?​

Piggybacking off my previous question, do you believe in the hypostatic union?​

Thank you.

Non Trinitarians do not have the privilege of identifying as Christians.

 

[Runningman]

Non Trinitarians do not have the privilege of identifying as Christians.

Well good morning. Why is it you are directing that opinion towards me? I am a Christian.

 

[Runningman]

I begin with the premise that there is only one divine being because Yahweh himself says so. The Bible is unequivocal that there is only one Being that is truly God, which is why it has been foundational to Christianity from the very beginning. That is the only orthodox position in Christianity.

That's correct and YHWH is the eternal, immortal, invisible God. The only God. That doesn't describe Jesus for Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God therefore he isn't God.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[LeviR]

Non Trinitarians do not have the privilege of identifying as Christians.

The mystery of the Trinity is referred to by the RCC as an “impenetrable paradox”.
An example of an impenetrable paradox would be an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
If both exist at the same time, they do so unreasonably.

Why would someone say you can’t be a Christian unless you believe something your mind cannot reasonably grasp.

Especially when the mind can easily grasp Jesus as son of God who has a God and Father.

 

[Runningman]

The mystery of the Trinity is referred to by the RCC as an “impenetrable paradox”.
An example of an impenetrable paradox would be an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
If both exist at the same time, they do so unreasonably.

Why would someone say you can’t be a Christian unless you believe something your mind cannot reasonably grasp.

Especially when the mind can easily grasp Jesus as son of God who has a God and Father.

I base the doctrine of the Trinity on the Athanasian Creed because it gives us a standard by which to understand it by, though individuals hold varying interpretations of the Trinity and don't all understand it the exact same way.

Based on my assessment of the Athanasian Creed, God is a substance which would make God a thing. This substance is said to be inside of each member of the Trinitarian Godhead. That would actually make the members of the Godhead not God themselves, but more like vessels.

Trinitarianism is actually a round about, though misguided, way of saying there is one God. Trinitarianism is thus equal to Unitarianism in a sense, though God isn't a substance-thing, but rather a person who the Bible says is the Father, the only true God (Jon 17:3, 1 Tim. 1:17, 1 Thess. 1:9,10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6)

 

[LeviR]

I base the doctrine of the Trinity on the Athanasian Creed because it gives us a standard by which to understand it by, though individuals hold varying interpretations of the Trinity and don't all understand it the exact same way.

Based on my assessment of the Athanasian Creed, God is a substance which would make God a thing. This substance is said to be inside of each member of the Trinitarian Godhead. That would actually make the members of the Godhead not God themselves, but more like vessels.

Trinitarianism is actually a round about, though misguided, way of saying there is one God. Trinitarianism is thus equal to Unitarianism in a sense, though God isn't a substance-thing, but rather a person who the Bible says is the Father, the only true God (Jon 17:3, 1 Tim. 1:17, 1 Thess. 1:9,10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Eph. 4:6)

There is one earth that consists of every substance belonging to that earth. But that one earth is three. Not three earth’s but only one earth.The one earth consists of three who are that one earth and share the same substance but are distinct from each other.

Huh?

How bout this:

There is one earth that consists of every substance belonging to that earth.

There is one God that consists of every substance belonging to that God.

Yeah, that’s the One I prefer.

 

[donadams]

H
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The “doctrine” of the trinity s a sacred mystery!

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Most who oppose dogma don’t know what it is

De Fide or thee faith revealed by Christ Jude1:3 and commanded to be taught by the apostolic church!

——————————
Dogma
——————————

Creator God

1. God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things.
*psalm 19:1
2. God’s existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith.
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
4. The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence.
5. The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul,
and is therefore supernatural.
6. The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the light of glory.
7. God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven.
8. The Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence.
9. God is absolutely perfect.
10. God is actually infinite in every perfection.
11. God is absolutely simple.
12. There is only One God.
*Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:


13. The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God.
14. God possesses an infinite power of cognition.
15. God is absolute Veracity.
16. God is absolutely faithful.
17. God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
18. God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
19. God is absolute Benignity.
20. God is absolutely immutable.
21. God is eternal.
*Psalm 90: 2 …even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
*Deut. 33:27 the eternal God is thy refuge…
22. God is immense or absolutely immeasurable.
23. God is everywhere present in created space.
24. God’s knowledge is infinite.
25. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia
simplicis intelligentiae).
26. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis).
27. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational
creatures with infallible certainty.
28. God’s Divine will is infinite.
29. God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on
the other hand, with freedom.
30. God is almighty.
31. God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth.
32. God is infinitely just.
33. God is infinitely merciful.
34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
35. In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
36. The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
37. The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
38. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
39. The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
40. The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
42. All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
*Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
43. All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.
44. God was moved by His Goodness to create the world.
45. The world was created for the Glorification of God.
46. The Three Divine Persons are one single, common Principle of the Creation.
47. God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity.
48. God has created a good world.
49. The world had a beginning in time.
50. God alone created the World.
51. God keeps all created things in existence.
52. God through His providence protects and guides all that He has created.