There Is Only One Baptism With the Holy Spirit By Jesus Christ

[John Zain]

... the Spirit baptism mentioned in the Gospels and in Acts is showing
Jesus as the one who baptizes with the Spirit,
whereas in the Epistles it is the Spirit who is the actor in the baptizing event

I find this fascinating. Please share these verses in the epistles with us.

 

[Webb]

Why listen to milllions of people who are uninspired we can all listen to God's word, the scripture. Its listening to human element that has got us into all this confusion.

 

[John Zain]

Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Salvation ------------------ Holy Spirit comes INSIDE and seals us (remains "forever", John 14:16+).
Holy Spirit baptism --- Holy Spirit comes UPON us with His anointing power.
(Many verses prove both of the above)

With some people, these events actually happen simultaneously.

 

[Webb]

Hi John

Does it make any difference that in this section of John 14 + Jesus was talking to His apostles? I believe it does.

 

[Enow]

I heartily recommend that you begin interviewing the millions of people
around the world who have received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

They will testify as to the difference between this and salvation.
They will be happy to set you straight. Don't listen to me, listen to them.

This baptism is basically a special anointing (usually for some ministry)
But, for some, it is simply so their prayers will be much more effective
because they will be praying in the Spirit (in tongues).

Hey, I repeat, don't believe me ... ask the millions, they're waiting for you.
Good luck.

I believe the warning in the scriptures:

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Line of discernment given in testing the spirits is that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world: therefore the Spirit that is already in you is not the spirit coming over you.

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

That is called departing from the faith when believers seek to receive another spirit, thinking that other spirit to be the Holy Spirit. That is heeding another calling and moving away from our resting place in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

It is utter hypocrisey to say that they believe the Holy Spirit is in them, but they are seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again...and after a sign too.

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Seeking to receive another Jesus is the same thing as preaching another Jesus and another Gospel. Are we not married to Christ upon our salvation? Are we not witnesses of the Son, the Good News to man? Are we serving the Son in seeking His glory or are we serving "movements of the 'Spirit'" in His name which is not serving the Lord Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Here is a testimony of someone in India that claimed to used to believe as I did that the Holy Spirit does not operate in such manifestations today:

He was having a Sunday adult class on the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost which happened to be the Sunday they were on: after the class, they had the service in honouring the Holy Spirit ( which I would not do and thus defers from what I believe in regards to the Holy Spirit Whom is God but does not seek to lead believers to worship Him nor glorify Him in worship, but dwells within us to lead us to testify of the Son in seeking His glory and thereby the glory of God the Father )

This brother testified of this encounter: It was like liquid nitrogen seeping though his skull: he was sacred, and then he began to confess against his will an apology to the Holy Spirit.

#1. Jesus is meek and lowly in heart: and here is a believer honouring the Holy Spirit and he got this response for thanks?

#2. Which would you think God prefer? A willing apology or a coerced one?

So yes; there are millions of testimonies, including the ones that does not involves receiving tongues as a sign in receiving this spirit again: as there are other signs and lying wonders that occurs and hyped on seeking when receiving the "Holy Spirit" again.

Mind you: the same format in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit to get tongues is the same format in receiving the Holy Spirit in getting signs and wonders: they all open themselves up to receive the Holy Spirit again and by calling on the Holy Spirit.

Then you have millions of one movement of the "Spirit" testifying that the other movement of the "Spirit" is not of God and vice versa. It dies not matter if they both called upon the Holy Spirit to come: some signs and wonders are just not of God: glod flakes falling from the ceiling: gold teeth appearing and disappearing: uncontrollable laughter that causes chaos in the worship service: people falling down and flopping all over the floor like a fish out of the water: having body twitchings and jerkings: being struck muet in mid sentence and standing there frozen: being pinned down on the floor being unable to move: some roar like a lion: bark like a dog, flap their arms as they go around the congregation as if they are an eagle flapping their wings as they fly: people act drunk : women on all fours making body girations as if they are having sex: some having convulsions so bad that they look like they were being demonically possessed:

But hey: they called upon the Holy Spirit so only the Holy Spirit would come, right? So what is wrong with this picture? Do really millions of testimonies all over the world agree with one another, brother?

I'd say no.

Why would God allow that to happen? Because they believed the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again which is a departure from the faith: and it is because they believed the lie that God permitted them to suffer strong delusions.

Note this reference in exposing suhc works of darkness followed by a reminder in refuting that work of darkness.

2 Thessalonians 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There are wizards that seek after familiar spirits that speak in tongues that comes with no interpretation:

Isaiah 8:19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Voodooists speak the same prayer language.

Now how can God call them out to a personal relationship through the Son if they can bring their practises in and their spirits and say that is the Holy Spirit and God's gift of tongues using it as a prayer language?

Ephesians 5:9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

 

[Enow]

They say Satan is the copycat: but Satan was doing this kind of tongues way before christianity came: and since God is not the copycat: this tongues that comes with no interpretation is not His gift of tongues of other men's lips.

This is why believers are not to believe every spirit: feeling it in the worship place or having it come over a believer with a sign when you know the Holy Spirit is within you is the line of discernment given to not follow after that spirit of error.

Narrow the way back to the straight gate: return to our first love: return to our resting place: Jesus Christ is called the Bridegroom for a reason: for us to be chaste in our relationship with God through Jesus Christ by not seeking after a sign by receiving another spirit: thus we are to shun vain and profane babblings that comes with no interpretation.

2 Timothy 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Proving all things and holding fast to the one baptism with the Holy Spirit to stand apart from all preachings of receiving another spirit that comes with signs and is after the rudiments in the world in how others seek after spirits and to see them by receiving them by a sign: is why the Gospel is about the Son: Jesus Christ so that our eyes are on the Bridegroom and not on false spirits and false prophets.

 

[Rageprophet]

I thank God that we have people like you enow to show us how decieved and wicked we are, I honestly never knew that I was seeking a sign or that I was demon possessed when I spoke in tongues but you have set me straight I was under the impression that God would allow me to discern things like this as I contiually seek him out in prayer daily but apparently not so now that you have proven that God is powerless in my life and completely unable to save me from myself or able to enlighten me to my deceit I humbly ask that you follow me around daily to point out all the other areas where I have fallen since God is no longer capable.

 

[cyberjosh]

I find this fascinating. Please share these verses in the epistles with us.

I need to find some more time to adequately respond, because I have a response for you. I might have to do it after work though.

 

[cyberjosh]

All,

One important thing to remember, no matter what position you take on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is that the Spirit Baptisms in Acts are tied directly to "power from on high". Tongues may be a part of such power, though not a necessary one, but certainly is not the extent of the power given. Rather such power that Jesus promised is the power of the Spirit working in the believer. It must also be noted that if one conducts a Scriptural word study of that word dunamis (translated 'power') then one will see that every Christian regardless of whether they are young or mature in their faith has access to the dunamis of Christ - else the Christian life is hopeless and a bad joke to think that we could sanctify ourselves and effectively share the gospel without the power of the Spirit and Christ in us to equip us and make us able.

So it must be taken into consideration whether the power given by the Spirit in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs in Acts is the same power that every believer receives at salvation. Scripture will determine that, but you also have to decide what you believe about that.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Enow]

I thank God that we have people like you enow to show us how decieved and wicked we are, I honestly never knew that I was seeking a sign or that I was demon possessed when I spoke in tongues but you have set me straight I was under the impression that God would allow me to discern things like this as I contiually seek him out in prayer daily but apparently not so now that you have proven that God is powerless in my life and completely unable to save me from myself or able to enlighten me to my deceit I humbly ask that you follow me around daily to point out all the other areas where I have fallen since God is no longer capable.

Believers were warned not to believe every spirit but test them: that means you cannot even take the so called millions of testimonies that declares that one can receive the Holy Spirit again especially when there are different results and signs coming from it: and not just tongues that comes with no interpretation which is what those that are in the world receives when they seek after familiar spirits.

So that means familiar spirits will try to trick believers which is why believers are not to believe every spirit.

How does one know the difference? When a believer is saved in the Book of Acts is where some of them, not all, had received the gift of tongues, but we are not seeing that happen today. What we do see happen are some believers changing their testimony as to when they were saved as if when they had expereinced the phenomenon of the spirit coming over them and then speaking intongues.

Then you have some believers using the same experience as interpreting that to mean an anointing as if that is seperate from salvation meaning that God is calling them into the ministry.

Either way: the initial event causes believers to believe those spirits and the spirit of error leads them into seeking that phenomenon and after a sign too: even though Paul exhorted believers to seek after the gift of prophesy: not tongues.

And the format being used does not always have tongues to be received as a sign: it can be gold flakes falling from the ceiling of the church: gold teeth appearing and disappearing: uncontrollable laughter: a spirit of drunkenness: being struck mute in mid sentence and be standing there frozen: some fall as if being slain in the spirit: some do body twitchings: some flop like a fish out of a water: some roar like a lion: bark like a dog, growl: flap their arms as if they were wings: women on all fours doing body girations as if they were having sex:

This all from asking the Holy Spirit directly to come: all started as the holy laughter movement started: not seeking it: but the spirit of error came: they did not know what it was but they were going to go with the flow, believing them to be the Holy Spirit and thus leading them to seek that phenomenon again.

The Holy Spirit is not the Mediator between us and God: the man, Jesus Christ is.

Paul never said that it was the Holy Spirit that was praying: Paul said it was "my spirit" in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter.

Westcott translated Romans 8:26-27 in error while the King James Bible has the correct translation. Westcott's father belonged in the Ghost' Guild society, a science that studies paranormal phenomenon. How much influence that his father has over Westcott when he translated can be shown.

Westcott believed the Holy Spirit makes direct intercessions Himself making wordless groans which is read as tongues without interpretations: but Westcott makes a grammarical error in verse 27 because the "he" which is a third person as seperate from us in searching our hearts and seperate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of, cannot be the Spirit that intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God.

The will of God is the man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man as it is the "he" that seraches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit in verse 27, thus holding to the original pronoun of this third person by reference to "he" in the King James Bible. Verse 27 explains the hows and whys that the Holy Spirit makes these intercession as a means, which is why the term "itself" was being used, and with groanings which cannot be uttered meaning no sound at all, because Jesus searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit as it is the "he" that intercedes for the saints in according to the will of God of 1 Timothy 2:5.

And Romans 8:34 confirms that several verses down from 26-27.

So it is a war of principality and dark forces as modern Bibles plant the seed of error that hides the discernment necessary to expose what is of God and what is not which is why I rely on the Good Shepherd for the wisdom I need in understanding the King James Bible.

You do not need tongues to be personal with God: as we are all to be personal as in being chaste in our relationship with God through the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The one thing many tongue speakers overlook is John 10th chapter in how those that climb up another away around the Son in seeking the "Spirit" to receive the "Spirit" again are following a stranger's voice, and as He has revealed to me, tongues without interpretation is the stranger's voice: no doubt about it.

There is no invitation given to come to the Holy Spirit for it is by Jesus Christ we have received the promise of the Spirit by faith upon our salvation. That is why scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit still points to the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father in getting to know Him ( John 14:6-7 ) as any other way would be a work of iniquity of Him saying I never knew you because they broke the commandment of His invitation in how we are to come to God the Father by way of the Son: not by way of the "Spirit" which is after the rudiment in the world.

That is why belivers are warned to strive ye to enter through the straight gate (Luke 13:24) as Jesus is the door (John 10:7-9): the "go to" means to God the Father so that believers can discern and shun these seducing spirits and avoid practises that are after the doctrines of devils by false prophets. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

So narrow the way back to the straight gate and return to our first love: because it is the broadening of the way in relating to God that is the work of iniquity.

 

[Enow]

Originally Posted by cyberjosh
... the Spirit baptism mentioned in the Gospels and in Acts is showing
Jesus as the one who baptizes with the Spirit,
whereas in the Epistles it is the Spirit who is the actor in the baptizing event

I find this fascinating. Please share these verses in the epistles with us.

Jesus never testified that the Spirit would do that and neither did John the Baptist.

This is reading inbetween the lines to infer that the Holy Spirit acts on His own accord, thus removing all distinction from other spirits in the world as they seek after them and after a sign of receiving them too.

Nowhere is anyone going to read such mental prepping to receive the Spirit after a sign.

What one will read is when asking the Father for the Holy Spirit: and once received: no one would be asking again lest they make the Father look like He gave a stone instead of bread or a serpent instead of a fish.

But all we see are believers hyping another supernatural phenomeon thus giving another calling and another invitation, but this time to the "Spirit" instead of Christ which is the definition of the antichrist: "instead of Christ" as these are the spirits of the antichrist.

All invitations points to the Son: the Bridegroom to be chaste in our relationship with God the Father. By seeking to receive another spirit and after a sign is like receiving another Jesus or putting on Christ again: thus being an adulterous generation that seeketh after a sign.

May God cause the increase for wayward believers to take pause and discern with the Lord's help to shun vain and profane babblings and return to their first love to serve the Lord Jesus Christ and be witnesses of the Son and not serve other spirits by preaching another "gospel" for believers to receive.

 

[Enow]

Salvation ------------------ Holy Spirit comes INSIDE and seals us (remains "forever", John 14:16+).
Holy Spirit baptism --- Holy Spirit comes UPON us with His anointing power.
(Many verses prove both of the above)

With some people, these events actually happen simultaneously.

We have a poster in the forum that believes in the distinction of the faith OF Christ as meaning different from the faith IN Christ as implying reference solely to Christ's faith and not the faith of believers in Christ. So does that mean that there is no one faith either?

Now in regards to those people that have these supposed events both happen simultaneously, what does it mean when it happens again to those people?

We have an author preaching three baptisms of the Holy Spirit and the errant brother that was reading the book testifying to his experience that he believes that there is five baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And so I say that the anointing, the sanctification, the sealing, the filling, the with, by, of, and whatever small term of making a mountain out of a molehill that a believer can make in implying that one can receive the Holy Spirit again all happens at salvation so that no believer can preach another spirit to receive: no other invitation to heed and no other calling.

It is unfortunate that seducing spirits of error are leading wayward believers into ignoring the reality of what they are preaching in receiving another spirit believing it to be the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit is already in them which is hypocrisey.

What better way to apply the line of discernment that to examine oneself in the faith to know that Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) so that this spirit coming over them cannot be the Holy Spirit again?

Ignore that: and you ignore the only line of discernment given which paves the way to preaching another Jesus, another gospel, and another spirit to receive. That is not serving the Lord Jesus Christ nor preaching the Gospel, but something else in His name by preaching another gospel for believers to seek after & receive.

2 Timothy 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Enow]

All,

One important thing to remember, no matter what position you take on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is that the Spirit Baptisms in Acts are tied directly to "power from on high". Tongues may be a part of such power, though not a necessary one, but certainly is not the extent of the power given. Rather such power that Jesus promised is the power of the Spirit working in the believer. It must also be noted that if one conducts a Scriptural word study of that word dunamis (translated 'power') then one will see that every Christian regardless of whether they are young or mature in their faith has access to the dunamis of Christ - else the Christian life is hopeless and a bad joke to think that we could sanctify ourselves and effectively share the gospel without the power of the Spirit and Christ in us to equip us and make us able.

So it must be taken into consideration whether the power given by the Spirit in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs in Acts is the same power that every believer receives at salvation. Scripture will determine that, but you also have to decide what you believe about that.

God Bless,
~Josh

John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now by your implications: we have believers believing every spirit and not testing them and thus seeking after a sign in receiving these spirits or power as the world does.

Khundalini is an Eastern mysticism that have participants testifying of receiving power, fire, peace, love, and any other sensations of the flesh of receiving through yoga or meditations.

American Indians dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come and commune with that spirit in the spirit of drunkenness. This is what they had testified of when introduced to alcohol or "firewater".

Now believers are experiencing these things and trying to make sense of it, fitting the experiences in the Bible when they should not be believing every spirit that comes over them but testing them by the scripture in what these spirits of error are misleading them to do and testify of to mislead others into so doing also.

Amazing how wayward believers will testify of God working in them by translating the fruit of "joy" to mean drunkenness, but drunkenness is a work of the flesh and if we are to have all the fruits of the Spirit: then joy would be working against the fruit of temperance which is self control: and a house divided cannot stand.

And indeed, many a houses are falling by what they call as being slain in the "Spirit". That is what they get for seeking after a sign and not heeding His words to keep their houses built on the rock because it is by not heeding His words is how a house is built on sand and falls when the storm comes to cause it to fall.

That is why believers are told to watch: heed the commandment of His invitation in John 14:6-7 to avoid false spirits as well as false prophets, because the moment any believer allows themselves to be led astray, will be suffering a thief to break through when seeking after other "gods".

All believers have come to their resting place in Christ Jesus: that means there is no other calling nor invitation to heed les we be moved away from our resting place to climbing mountains or having a rollercoaster ride over hills and dipping in valleys of the highs and lows of emotionalism and sensational signs of the flesh.

Jeremiah 50:6My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world....9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We are to be witnesses of the Son, the Good News to man, in seeking His glory and thereby the glory of God the Father.

Nothing else.

 

[cyberjosh]

John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now by your implications: we have believers believing every spirit and not testing them and thus seeking after a sign in receiving these spirits or power as the world does.
...
All believers have come to their resting place in Christ Jesus: that means there is no other calling nor invitation to heed les we be moved away from our resting place to climbing mountains or having a rollercoaster ride over hills and dipping in valleys of the highs and lows of emotionalism and sensational signs of the flesh.

Why are you lumping me in with the Pentecostals and Charismatics (as I assume you are implying)? You clearly haven't read my posts very closely. I personally do not believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second experience, and that "unless you receive some second experience" you cannot speak in tongues, etc. etc. Hence I disagree with the Pentecostal interpretation of the Baptism of the Spirit.

However, I was quite careful to be as neutral as possible in my posts as to the correct interpretation - so as to spur others to study the Scripture with me. Go back and read them again. And my point about the dunamis power of the Spirit had nothing to do with signs - power for sanctification is wrought inwardly.

P.S. And as for the gifts of the Spirit I believe that God is a God of order and not chaos. You won't catch me believing that spontaneous "holy running" and "holy laughing" is from God any time soon. FYI.

 

[John Zain]

All, One important thing to remember, no matter what position you take on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is that the Spirit Baptisms in Acts are tied directly to "power from on high". Tongues may be a part of such power, though not a necessary one, but certainly is not the extent of the power given. Rather such power that Jesus promised is the power of the Spirit working in the believer. It must also be noted that if one conducts a Scriptural word study of that word dunamis (translated 'power') then one will see that every Christian regardless of whether they are young or mature in their faith has access to the dunamis of Christ - else the Christian life is hopeless and a bad joke to think that we could sanctify ourselves and effectively share the gospel without the power of the Spirit and Christ in us to equip us and make us able.
So it must be taken into consideration whether the power given by the Spirit in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that occurs in Acts is the same power that every believer receives at salvation. Scripture will determine that, but you also have to decide what you believe about that.

I would like to see verses where "dunamis" power is related only to salvation.

Until then, I believe the "dunamis" power concerns only the 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed,
and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge
through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually
as He wills.

Now, you will say, "But I have faith." ... Yes, but it's not like this faith!

These are POWERFUL spiritual gifts, friends.

 

[cyberjosh]

I would like to see verses where "dunamis" power is related only to salvation.

Until then, I believe the "dunamis" power concerns only the 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12:

[edited for space considerations]

Now, you will say, "But I have faith." ... Yes, but it's not like this faith!

These are POWERFUL spiritual gifts, friends.

I didn't state that dunamis was related "only to salvation", I said that all who are saved have access to the access of dunamis of Christ - which, yes, can and does refer to the power of spiritual gifts, but beyond that the very power that Christ gives us to live the Christian life and His power working in us.

Consider the following verses:

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death" (Philippians 3:8, 10)

"And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." (2 Corinthians 12:9).

The same basic truth of the power of Christ dwelling in us is expressed in the passage that says, "You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." (1 John 4:4)

This is the reality of the power of Christ in us giving us the power to live the Christian life (including sanctification), assist us in our weakness, and overcome the schemes of the enemy! All Christians have access to that power, and I thank God for it!

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Free]

I personally do not believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second experience, and that "unless you receive some second experience" you cannot speak in tongues, etc. etc. Hence I disagree with the Pentecostal interpretation of the Baptism of the Spirit.

Just curious as to what you think of this:

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. (NKJV)

There were those present here, such as Peter, who were filled at Pentecost, yet they are clearly receiving another filling. This would certainly seem to indicate that there is something different about being "filled" (or "baptized" if that is how some are referring to it) compared with the Holy Spirit initially indwelling the believer. It would not only seem that this is a subsequent filling which leads to the use of the spiritual gifts or a manifestation of the Spirit's power, but that it is something that can be done more than once.

Eph 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, (NKJV)

I have heard or read somewhere that in this verse, "be filled" is such that it means to "continually be filled." If it is that meaning, then it could be argued that it is something that should be happening to believers on a regular basis. I'll have to search that some more but perhaps you have some insight.

 

[John Zain]

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. (NKJV)
There were those present here, such as Peter, who were filled at Pentecost, yet they are clearly receiving another filling. This would certainly seem to indicate that there is something different about being "filled" (or "baptized" if that is how some are referring to it) compared with the Holy Spirit initially indwelling the believer.
It would not only seem that this is a subsequent filling which leads to the use of the spiritual gifts or a manifestation of the Spirit's power, but that it is something that can be done more than once.
Eph 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, (NKJV)
I have heard or read somewhere that in this verse, "be filled" is such that it means to "continually be filled." If it is that meaning, then it could be argued that it is something that should be happening to believers on a regular basis. I'll have to search that some more but perhaps you have some insight.

Yes, I forget if all of the uses of "filled" mean "filled continually".
Personally, I believe "filled" only refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as in "filled to over-flowing".

I.E. Just because someone becomes born-again and the Holy Spirit comes "in" the person "forever" (John 14:16+) definitely does NOT mean the person has been "filled to over-flowing".

It's possible that uncovering someone's research on this could prove to be extremely interesting.
It probably could prove that the baptism with the Holy Spirit refers to salvation,
or the opposite (which I know for sure is the truth of the matter).

 

[cyberjosh]

Pardon the length please - I pasted a few responses together that I have made in the past about this topic & added a few things.

Just curious as to what you think of this:

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. (NKJV)

There were those present here, such as Peter, who were filled at Pentecost, yet they are clearly receiving another filling. This would certainly seem to indicate that there is something different about being "filled" (or "baptized" if that is how some are referring to it) compared with the Holy Spirit initially indwelling the believer. It would not only seem that this is a subsequent filling which leads to the use of the spiritual gifts or a manifestation of the Spirit's power, but that it is something that can be done more than once.

Eph 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, (NKJV)

I have heard or read somewhere that in this verse, "be filled" is such that it means to "continually be filled." If it is that meaning, then it could be argued that it is something that should be happening to believers on a regular basis. I'll have to search that some more but perhaps you have some insight.

Hi Free,

Honestly I am still studying all the uses of baptism in the NT to determine its exact meaning and to see if the Baptism of the Spirit in Acts is the same as the Baptisms in the Epistles. However I will address filling. I don't know why people so often fail to distinguish baptizo from pleroo, even if the Baptism leads to filling (pleroo).

When we receive the indwelling Spirit it is positional - the Spirit now dwells in us as the temple of God and that does not change - He is there to stay (excepting our apostasy). Filling though can come and go (which is not to say that the Spirit leaves us) but as we can see in Acts the disciples were filled multiple times. I would say that the filling is the manifestation and outworking of the positional reality of having been given the Holy Spirit and power from God to live the Christian life. This is why Paul urged us to not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit - if a Christian backslides and goes on a drinking spree it's fairly safe to say that they are not being filled with the Spirit at that moment (which is also not to say the Spirit leaves us - but He is grieved by such behavior). The filling can be sought and aligned with God's will to fill us, but it mostly involves you positioning yourself practically in a place of obedience to receive that filling for whatever occasions God may equip you to do His work. That is the best way I can think to describe it.

And yes the verse in Eph 5:18 in the Greek indicates a continuous action as (as I have seen it rendered): "be being filled". It indicates a continual action but with the imperative on our part.
Imperative: do not be drunk with wine. Imperative: be being filled with the Spirit. A similar 'be' imperative was given to the Israelites (Leviticus 20:26, 1 Peter 1:16).

Realities such as Jesus expressed about how new wineskins are needed to hold new wine speak of a positional change in Christ, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). We become those new vessels/wineskins when we are regenerated by the Spirit (Titus 3:5). And the power of the Spirit itself is available to us but we must position ourselves obediently for the Spirit to fill us.

The warning I always convey to others about this is that God gives us power in the form of grace (I had never realized that grace was empowering - 2 Corinthians 12:9) and that God's grace can be used in vain - we can drop the ball and not walk in the power and grace that God has offered us, even as Christians. Paul said, "And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1). So it's not that you are automatically filled always, we must seek it to a degree (and keep ourselves from drunkedness), but of course the working is all of God.

But as for filling there are multiple references in Acts to the disciples being filled over and over again. If filling were a constant given why would there be a specific calling attention to when someone was filled with the Spirit in Scripture if it were not a specific occasion(?) - like when Stephen was filled with the Spirit before he was martyred? In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit had to come upon someone before they could prophesy (like Saul - who was filled with the Spirit and prophesied). The filling is similar except it happens at certain times of equiping (which we are told to always be equiped for thus strive to always be being filled: our aim) - although the Holy Spirit Himself does not come and go because of the reality of the indwelling. Else why would we be told to be filled with the Holy Spirit if it is something which happens continually and automatically?

I would disagree that someone can be filled with the Spirit and be filled (drunken) with wine at the same time. They are antithetical - and that was Paul's whole point of contrasting the two in Eph 5:18. To say otherwise is to twist the meaning of the text. Also we can greive the Holy Spirit by walking in the flesh (even if temporarily being tripped up by the flesh) - which is expressed in the metaphor of walking according to or being in the flesh or in the Spirit - meaning basically to be 'controlled by' or be 'under the power of' the flesh or Spirit. I look at filling in a similar way, which is why if you are serving your flesh with drunkenness and debauchery then I would say you are not acting/walking in the Spirit nor being filled by the Spirit (remember it must be a continuous action to remain/continue to be filled - in my understanding - so if you walk contrary to the Spirit how will you be filled by Him?). The biggest point though is that filling is not a once for all thing like indwelling but rather must be a continuous action. This also distinguishes it from strict equivalence with Baptism of the Spirit which is also a one time action (the distinction I hinted at above between baptizo and pleroo).

I believe that we as humans and Christians can sometimes be, in a sense, 'leaky vessels' as regards filling - we can be filled with the Holy Spirit but when we sometimes drift from God we are not being filled. The indwelling Spirit does not leave us, and we are not 'leaky' as regards the Spirit's indwelling presence as it says in Matthew 9:17, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." So let me be clear that I am not talking about that. I regard filling as different though. I do not believe that we are always continually filled regardless of what we do, since it is not positional, even though we obviously are meant to strive and aim for that.

I am willing to be shown otherwise, but I have explained my reasoning above.

 

[John Zain]

The biggest point though is that filling is not a once for all thing like indwelling (i.e. salvation ... Zain)
but rather must be a continuous action.
This also distinguishes it from strict equivalence with Baptism of the Spirit
which is also a one time action (the distinction I hinted at above between baptizo and pleroo).

I'll give a hearty "Amen" to this, except ...
"filling" must not be a continuous action, but it definitely is encouraged in the epistles.