These Signs Will Follow Those Who Believe (Mark 16:17)

[JLB]

In context its about people like the magicians Jannes and Jambres, who do powerful signs and wonders.

These do powerful magic, but resist God's truth.

They deny the power to live holy lives..hence they are lovers of themselves...money...boasting etc:

2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
(2 Tim. 3:2-9 NKJ)

People who don't have the power of the Holy Spirit only have a form of godliness, but deny the power of God; they resist the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the means of this power just like Jannes and Jambres resisted the power of God that Moses operated by.




JLB

 

[andy pandy]

I believe this might be called grieving the Spirit.

I am always cautious in this area. I don’t want to blaspheme the Spirit. The Pharisees did this to Jesus. At one point they attributed his miracles to Bealzabud.

Which is what Alfred does all the time so I can not understand why you allow him to continually post errors.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am so glad it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth, not Alfred Persson.

So why do you do it all the time?

You're obsessed with me. Why? I'm nobody.

Why care if I believe you or not?

 

[Hopeful]

The Holy Spirit is mentioned by Peter, and the implication of their being saved is they received the Holy Spirit as promised:

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
(Acts 2:37-47 NKJ)

It doesn't say they received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It says they were baptized, only the second part of Peter's sermon.

 

[Hopeful]

In context its about people like the magicians Jannes and Jambres, who do powerful signs and wonders.

These do powerful magic, but resist God's truth.

They deny the power to live holy lives..hence they are lovers of themselves...money...boasting etc:

2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
(2 Tim. 3:2-9 NKJ)

With that truth in mind, let us judge the validity of heavenly gifts by the receivers of such gift's lives.

 

[Alfred Persson]

People who don't have the power of the Holy Spirit only have a form of godliness, but deny the power of God; they resist the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the means of this power just like Jannes and Jambres resisted the power of God that Moses operated by.




JLB

In context, that is NOT what it says. Jannes and Jambres were powerful magicians, they did signs and great wonders. They were able to change their staffs into serpents.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. (Exod. 7:11-12 NKJ)

They duplicated God's signs and wonders, turning water into blood (Ex. 7:22), even caused frogs cover the land of Egypt (Ex. 8:5)

So they aren't denying the power to do signs and wonders. What was being denied is revealed in the context, the power to live righteously....they were lovers of themselves, money, boaster, proud, blaphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful and unholy etc. These fakers, weeds among the wheat did powerful signs and wonders in Christ's name, but He never knew them. They were workers of lawlessness:

22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Matt. 7:22-23 NKJ)

We can know them by their fruits, not their profession:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Matt. 7:15-20 NKJ)


They claim to be lovers of God, but their lawlessness proves they are just like the sorcerers Jannes and Jambres, although they seem like religious people, they deny the power to live righteously. Notice Paul ends congratulating Timothy, in contrast to those TARES, he followed apostolic doctrine, the truth in the Bible:


NKJ 2 Timothy 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, (2 Tim. 3:1-10 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

It doesn't say they received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It says they were baptized, only the second part of Peter's sermon.

Peter promised they would receive Him if they repented and believed. The text says the did a Peter demanded, it follows they received the Holy Spirit.

Or did Peter lie to them? Of course he didn't. So they were baptized in the Spirit and as is true for everyone born again, the outward physical evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit is a changed spirit, love for God, His Truth the bible, and for His people. That born again experience is the same what happens today, whenever people respond to the call to confess Jesus is LORD publicly.

 

[Alfred Persson]

With that truth in mind, let us judge the validity of heavenly gifts by the receivers of such gift's lives.

The Bible is the authority, it alone can validate truth.

Everyday we are shocked by the evil people do, who we thought were good people.

So no, I don't trust my ability to know what is really going on in people's lives.

But I can read the Bible and study what it says, and believe it 100%.

 

[OzSpen]

I reject unsound theories about text transmission.

The least meaning of God's Word cannot pass away until all is fulfilled:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa. 55:9-11 NKJ)

Alfred,

How late in textual transmission did Erasmus gather the manuscripts for the Textus Receptus?

Oz

 

[Cooper]

The context isn't about gifts of the Spirit, its about the favors and calling of Israel:

5486 χάρισμα charisma {khar'-is-mah}

Meaning: 1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own 2) the gift of divine grace 3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue 4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith 5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit.-Strong's Concordance

This is how various commentaries interpret it:

c. χάρισμα (LN 57.103) (BAGD 1. p. 878): ‘gift’ [AB, BAGD, BECNT, ICC2, LN, NICNT, WBC; CEV, GW, KJV, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, NRSV], ‘gracious gift’ [LN, NTC; REB], ‘act of grace’ [HNTC]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the things he gives (them)’ [NCV], ‘(whom he) blesses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes that which is given freely and generously [LN].
d. κλῆσις (LN 33.313) (BAGD 1. p. 435): ‘calling’ [BAGD, BECNT, HNTC, LN, NTC; KJV, NASB, NRSV, REB], ‘call’ [AB, BAGD, ICC2, NICNT, WBC; NET, NIV, NLT]. This noun is translated as a phrase: ‘the people he calls’ [NCV], ‘(the people he has) chosen’ [CEV], ‘(when he) calls someone’ [GW], ‘(whom he) chooses’ [TEV]. This noun denotes the state of having been called to a particular task and/or relation [LN].

QUESTION—What relationship is indicated by γάρ ‘for’?

It indicates the grounds for what has just been said [BECNT, ICC1, Mor, NICNT], which is that God does not change his mind after he has issued a call or given a gift [Mor]. It indicates grounds for what was said in the last part of 11:28, which is that the Jews are still loved by God because his gifts and call are irrevocable [NICNT]. It indicates justification for what has just been said in the last part of 11:28, which is that God’s having chosen them is still valid [SSA].

QUESTION—What are the gifts and calling that are irrevocable?
1. The gifts are all the privileges of Israel summarized in 9:4–5 [BECNT, ICC1, ICC2, Mor, Mu, NICNT, SSA, St, WBC]. The calling is their election by God [Ho, NICNT], by which they became the beloved [NICNT], by which they became his special people and to fulfill his purposes in history [ICC2]. It is the calling to the kingdom [ICC1]. God calls both people and nations, and he commissions them to function in certain tasks [Mor]. The call is God’s summons of Abraham, which eventually came to be God’s election of Israel to be his chosen people [AB]. The calling is God’s effectual calling of Abraham and Israel to salvation [BECNT].


Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 176). SIL International.

GOD'S GIFTS ARE IMMUTABLE. (Romans 11:29) When the Jews return to God, THE GIFTS ARE STILL THERE, including the additional Gifts of the Holy Spirit given after Pentecost.

This is a fine example of why we are not seeing the operation of the gifts in the Christian Church today, because in the main, with some exceptions, Christians, like the Jews have also gone cold, but when Gentile and Jew return to the fold after being grafted back in, the immutable gifts will still be there. God is ever faithful. So, instead, of being in denial, seek the Lord and His gifts, while they may still be found.
.

 

[OzSpen]

The Bible is the authority, it alone can validate truth.

Alfred,

The bigger issue in this thread is: Is Mark 16:9-20 in the Bible or has it been added at a later time than the originals?

Oz

 

[JLB]

In context, that is NOT what it says.

In context it's exactly what the scripture says.

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

Jesus says we will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.
Jesus was contextually referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the PROMISE of the Father to all.


4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33


For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39



The baptism of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, is for all.





JLB

 

[jaybo]

GOD'S GIFTS ARE IMMUTABLE. (Romans 11:29) When the Jews return to God, THE GIFTS ARE STILL THERE, including the additional Gifts of the Holy Spirit given after Pentecost.

This is a fine example of why we are not seeing the operation of the gifts in the Christian Church today, because in the main, with some exceptions, Christians, like the Jews have also gone cold, but when Gentile and Jew return to the fold after being grafted back in, the immutable gifts will still be there. God is ever faithful. So, instead, of being in denial, seek the Lord and His gifts, while they may still be found.
.

This is a fine example of a self-contradictory post. You wrote...

a) This is a fine example of why we are not seeing the operation of the gifts in the Christian Church today,
and b) seek the Lord and His gifts, while they may still be found. So which is it, in your opinion? Are the gifts present today or not?

 

[Alfred Persson]

In context it's exactly what the scripture says.

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

Jesus says we will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.
Jesus was contextually referring to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the PROMISE of the Father to all.


4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33


For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39



The baptism of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, is for all.





JLB

I agree Paul is referring to the "power" (1411 δύναμις dunamis) of the Holy Spirit all Christians receive that enables them to live "godly lives".

But these aren't godly Christians Paul is talking about. These are "lovers of themselves" rather than "lovers of God":

2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, (2 Tim. 3:2-4 NKJ)

These religious frauds have a "form of godliness without the power to be "lovers of God"

5 having a form of godliness (2150 εὐσέβεια eusebeia) but denying its power. And from such people turn away! (2 Tim. 3:5 NKJ)

2150 εὐσέβεια eusebeia {yoo-seb'-i-ah}
Meaning: 1) reverence, respect 2) piety towards God, godliness-Strong's Concordance

So "godliness" is "reverence, respect, piety towards God" that makes one a "lover of God rather than a lover of themselves"

How do they "deny" the power of godliness?

They aren't preaching against it, it is their lives that deny godliness' power to live righteously.

Their lives are a denial of Christian godliness, they are lovers of themselves rather than lovers of God.


Then Paul says these "ungodly men" resist God's truth like the magicians Jannes and Jambres:

6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was. (2 Tim. 3:6-9 NKJ)

How did the magicians Jannes and Jambres resist Moses?

Did they deny the power of God to do signs and wonders? Did they deny Moses could do signs and wonders?

Not at all, Jannes and Jambres did powerful signs and wonders that lied to Pharoah he could resist God:

10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:10-14 NKJ)

Just as Jannes and Jambres convinced Pharaoh to believe the lie, the religious frauds also do signs and wonders that lie, convincing the gullible their godless "form of godliness" is true Christianity----but "their folly is manifest to all" because their fruits we can know them:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matt. 7:15-23 NKJ)

Therefore, contrary to your eisegesis these aren't Christians who believe speaking in tongues and prophesy is not for our day.

On the contrary, they are sign and wonder working TARES sown among the WHEAT whose lives betray their "form of godliness" is a denial of true Christianity where "godliness in power" creates people who are lovers of God rather than lovers of themselves.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred,

How late in textual transmission did Erasmus gather the manuscripts for the Textus Receptus?

Oz

Don't know. But you might find the answer here or a similar blog post:

A Systematic Defense for the Textus Receptus

Disclaimer: The Particular Baptist is evenly split on the issue of the Textus Receptus, with the hosts of the podcast having a debate on the subject here. As such, the following post does not repre…

theparticularbaptist.net

The Identity of the New Testament Text by Wilbur Pickering led me to revisit my uncritical acceptance of modern theories and I now reject them:

The Identity of the New Testament Text: Pickering, Wilbur N.: 9780840757449: Amazon.com: Books

The Identity of the New Testament Text [Pickering, Wilbur N.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Identity of the New Testament Text

www.amazon.com

In my studies of the Bible I have always found the TR and Massoretic text have the "best readings". That confirmed my decision to just trust God preserved His Word so we could know it.

I am convinced Divine Providence delivered the very Word of God to us, not some corruption of it.

Nothing you say will change that conviction.

 

[Alfred Persson]

GOD'S GIFTS ARE IMMUTABLE. (Romans 11:29) When the Jews return to God, THE GIFTS ARE STILL THERE, including the additional Gifts of the Holy Spirit given after Pentecost.

This is a fine example of why we are not seeing the operation of the gifts in the Christian Church today, because in the main, with some exceptions, Christians, like the Jews have also gone cold, but when Gentile and Jew return to the fold after being grafted back in, the immutable gifts will still be there. God is ever faithful. So, instead, of being in denial, seek the Lord and His gifts, while they may still be found.
.

Immutable and irrevocable mean different things.

And your theory cold Christians stopped God from giving them gifts that would make them "hot Christians" doesn't make any sense.

1)We can't stop God from doing anything; 2) Why would He allow us to stop Him from "fixing us", if indeed that is the "fix" for "coldness".

In the End Time, during the Great Tribulation of the Jews and the Church, when Moses and Elijah appear, then the prophecy of Joel will be fulfilled. Pentecost was only a prefigure of that end time event:

16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
(Acts 2:16-21 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred,

The bigger issue in this thread is: Is Mark 16:9-20 in the Bible or has it been added at a later time than the originals?

Oz

One of the "common sense" arguments FOR the "long ending" in Mark, is the unlikelihood someone would add the long ending, given its reference to snake handling and Jesus appearing in another form.

In other words, its much more likely a scribe would delete "the offensive material" even if it ended Mark prematurely.

As for Christ appearing in another form, "morphe" in Greek doesn't mean PHYSICAL form. Its the appearance one gives, as in "the golfer showed good form". Christ appeared differently, i.e., "another form" referring only to His appearance to others.

I find nothing wrong with the "long ending" and it certainly wraps up the Gospel of Mark quite neatly.

 

[OzSpen]

Don't know. But you might find the answer here or a similar blog post:

A Systematic Defense for the Textus Receptus

Disclaimer: The Particular Baptist is evenly split on the issue of the Textus Receptus, with the hosts of the podcast having a debate on the subject here. As such, the following post does not repre…

theparticularbaptist.net

The Identity of the New Testament Text by Wilbur Pickering led me to revisit my uncritical acceptance of modern theories and I now reject them:

The Identity of the New Testament Text: Pickering, Wilbur N.: 9780840757449: Amazon.com: Books

The Identity of the New Testament Text [Pickering, Wilbur N.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Identity of the New Testament Text

www.amazon.com

In my studies of the Bible I have always found the TR and Massoretic text have the "best readings". That confirmed my decision to just trust God preserved His Word so we could know it.

I am convinced Divine Providence delivered the very Word of God to us, not some corruption of it.

Nothing you say will change that conviction.

Alfred,

I know the answer because I've done my research about the age of the Received Text.
How do you know Wilbur Pickering's view was correct?

So you live by "that/your conviction" and not by your researched conclusion!

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

One of the "common sense" arguments FOR the "long ending" in Mark, is the unlikelihood someone would add the long ending, given its reference to snake handling and Jesus appearing in another form.

In other words, its much more likely a scribe would delete "the offensive material" even if it ended Mark prematurely.

As for Christ appearing in another form, "morphe" in Greek doesn't mean PHYSICAL form. Its the appearance one gives, as in "the golfer showed good form". Christ appeared differently, i.e., "another form" referring only to His appearance to others.

I find nothing wrong with the "long ending" and it certainly wraps up the Gospel of Mark quite neatly.

Alfred,

I'm finding it impossible to have a rational conversation with you when you accept an ending of Mark 16 that includes drinking deadly poison and handling snakes. Are you endorsing those activities in churches today as gifts that continue?

Oz

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred,

I'm finding it impossible to have a rational conversation with you when you accept an ending of Mark 16 that includes drinking deadly poison and handling snakes. Are you endorsing those activities in churches today as gifts that continue?

Oz

Of course not. The Text says the prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century by those Christ sent out to preach the gospel. If you recall, Paul did get bit by a snake yet survived. Although the NT doesn't report anyone drinking poison, given the sanitary conditions then its very likely that happened often to everyone.

When Christ said "these signs follow those who believe" He was speaking to His disciples about the hundreds of people following Him at that time. To distinguish those approved by Christ, the foundational prophets and evangelists manifested "confirming signs."

But that only applied to that group in the 1st century, not to us.

PS: The slander against the "long ending" is precisely that. There is nothing offensive or theologically incorrect in the text.

I am a critical thinker. I have researched this question thoroughly and very confident I made the right choice when I decided to believe Christ:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

This does not mean every diacritical mark is preserved. It does not mean word order is preserved, or that synonyms haven't been used by copyists. It does mean "even the smallest meaning of God's word will be fulfilled". That requires the Word of God has been fully preserved, its meaning. Then synonyms word order diacritical marks etc that do not affect meaning. are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent as to the divine preservation of God's word.