These Signs Will Follow Those Who Believe (Mark 16:17)

[Alfred Persson]

You may not know but that does not surprise me as you seem to delight in calling the work of the Spirit the work of Satan. Of course as you know so much you know what the outcome of doing that is.

No, I did not. Read it again.

 

[andy pandy]

While we know from the reports of spiritists and experiencers of UFO abduction that demons are telepathic---we have better proof of that in the teaching of our LORD:

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)

Picture that. When the gospel is preached the devil comes and telepathically argues against believing it. Satan "imitates a person's inner voice" so they believe they are "arguing with themselves." Those by the wayside lose the argument, the Devil telepathically took away whatever their hearts had felt for the truth of God.

That is why modern charismania isn't convincing. A demon can impart "a word of knowledge" about someone's sins, telepathically.

What would impress skeptics like me is a prophetic word about something in the future, that couldn't be the result of demonic "guessing."

For example, a demon might know a car's brakes are about to fail, and then through one of their dupes "prophesy" the owner was about to have an accident.

Real prophecy like what we see in Scripture. Where events the prophet or demons had no control over, are predicted. Like when lots were cast for Christ's clothes by soldiers at Calvary. Or that no bones would be broken.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
(Deut. 18:21-22 KJV)

FYI I am not trying to impress you. It would not be possible when you see a devil behind every tree and a demon giving instructions and calling the work of the Spirit the work of Satan. Face facts. You are a lost cause.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, I did not. Read it again.

Or its the usual telepathic messaging from evil spirits. No way for us to know

 

[andy pandy]

No, I did not. Read it again.

Yes, you did but you are so deluded that you don't realize what you are saying but then that is the way satan does things.

 

[andy pandy]

Or its the usual telepathic messaging from evil spirits. No way for us to know

You would not know because you deceived to call the work of the Spirit the work of satan.

 

[andy pandy]

Or its the usual telepathic messaging from evil spirits. No way for us to know, but hardly impressive.

When you call the work of the Spirit the work of Satan as you do regularly, of course you are not going to know as you are totally deceived.

 

[stovebolts]

While we know from the reports of spiritists and experiencers of UFO abduction that demons are telepathic---we have better proof of that in the teaching of our LORD:

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)

Picture that. When the gospel is preached the devil comes and telepathically argues against believing it. Satan "imitates a person's inner voice" so they believe they are "arguing with themselves." Those by the wayside lose the argument, the Devil telepathically took away whatever their hearts had felt for the truth of God.

That is why modern charismania isn't convincing. A demon can impart "a word of knowledge" about someone's sins, telepathically.

What would impress skeptics like me is a prophetic word about something in the future, that couldn't be the result of demonic "guessing."

For example, a demon might know a car's brakes are about to fail, and then through one of their dupes "prophesy" the owner was about to have an accident.

Real prophecy like what we see in Scripture. Where events the prophet or demons had no control over, are predicted. Like when lots were cast for Christ's clothes by soldiers at Calvary. Or that no bones would be broken.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
(Deut. 18:21-22 KJV)

We are told to test the Spirit. When prophesying, if one is speaking for the Lord and his prophesy isn’t true, then he is not to be trusted.

I believe God still works through us today in this manner.

 

[stovebolts]

When you call the work of the Spirit the work of Satan as you do regularly, of course you are not going to know as you are totally deceived.

I believe this might be called grieving the Spirit.

I am always cautious in this area. I don’t want to blaspheme the Spirit. The Pharisees did this to Jesus. At one point they attributed his miracles to Bealzabud.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe this might be called grieving the Spirit.

I am always cautious in this area. I don’t want to blaspheme the Spirit. The Pharisees did this to Jesus. At one point they attributed his miracles to Bealzabud.

I agree 100% But I don't accept claims of supernatural gifts "sight unseen". I'm a skeptic, a cessationist. But I don't rule out God can't do what He wants, anytime He wants to.

And I do believe these gifts will return in the End Time Week, when the true church is being nourished by the two oil lamps of God at His altar:

NKJ Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
(Rev. 11:1-4 NKJ)

NKJ Zechariah 4:1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.
3 "Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."
4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:`Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.
(Zech. 4:1-6 NKJ)

16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
(Acts 2:16-20 NKJ)

Pentecost prefigured this event, the signs of Blood and fire and vapor of smoke, sun turned into darkness, moon blood. all occur in the END TIME fulfillment.

So my Cessationism ends in the final 7 year end time week.

 

[Alfred Persson]

When you call the work of the Spirit the work of Satan as you do regularly, of course you are not going to know as you are totally deceived.

I have NEVER done that. It is slanderous to say I have.

You want me to believe you have these gifts, BECAUSE YOU SAY SO. That won't happen.

Slandering me won't change that.

John says every believer receives God's Witness about "all things [supernatural]", whether a prophecy or tongue is "of God" or not.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
(1 Jn. 2:19-21 NKJ)

But it only works in person, not over the internet.

 

[Alfred Persson]

FYI I am not trying to impress you. It would not be possible when you see a devil behind every tree and a demon giving instructions and calling the work of the Spirit the work of Satan. Face facts. You are a lost cause.

No, I'm just like the non-charismanic Thessalonians and Corinthians. So many false prophets claiming to have the gift of prophecy, were among the Thessalonians false prophesying, they were beginning to despise ALL prophecy:

20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.
(1 Thess. 5:20-22 NKJ)

Same in Corinth. So many false prophets were babbling something they falsely called "tongues" that the majority of non-tongues speakers in Corinth wanted to forbid the speaking in tongues completely:

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(1 Cor. 14:39-40 NKJ)

So I am like a 1st century Christian who has heard enough mindless babbling and false prophecy to want to forbid it entirely.

BUT that is not my call.

However, I am convinced by the data of the NT the revelatory gifts were no longer needed once the Bible was completed. And in fact the writer of Hebrews speaks of them in the PAST TENSE:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

No, I'm just like the non-charismanic Thessalonians and Corinthians. So many false prophets claiming to have the gift of prophecy, were among the Thessalonians false prophesying, they were beginning to despise ALL prophecy:

20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil.
(1 Thess. 5:20-22 NKJ)

Same in Corinth. So many false prophets were babbling something they falsely called "tongues" that the majority of non-tongues speakers in Corinth wanted to forbid the speaking in tongues completely:

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(1 Cor. 14:39-40 NKJ)

So I am like a 1st century Christian who has heard enough mindless babbling and false prophecy to want to forbid it entirely.

BUT that is not my call.

However, I am convinced by the data of the NT the revelatory gifts were no longer needed once the Bible was completed. And in fact the writer of Hebrews speaks of them in the PAST TENSE:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

You seem not to be a cessationist.
You are a pausist.

When is a gift (from God) "needed"?
It is a gift !

 

[Alfred Persson]

You seem not to be a cessationist.
You are a pausist.

When is a gift (from God) "needed"?
It is a gift !

Pausist, it fits.

When is a gift from God needed? Whenever God says so:

During the Great Tribulation Adonikam the son of Destruction (Gen. 3:15; 2 Th. 2:3) is slaughtering Christians and Jews, so they cry out to Yahweh God in the name of Jesus Yahweh the Son. God will answer with the latter rain, to counter the river of spiritism spewed from the Dragon's mouth that is attempting to carry the church away into idolatry with false prophecy and lying signs and wonders (1 Cor. 12:2; 1 Th. 2:9-12)

1 Ask the LORD for rain In the time of the latter rain. The LORD will make flashing clouds; He will give them showers of rain, Grass in the field for everyone.
2 For the idols speak delusion; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore the people wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because there is no shepherd.
3 "My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle. (Zech. 10:1-3 NKJ)

This is depicted symbolically in John's vision. The TARES cast into the outer courtyard of the Temple surround the true believers of God worshiping Him at His altar:

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. (Rev. 11:1-2 NKJ)

These "Gentile" dwellers of the earth greedily swallow up every drop of the river of spiritism fueling their strong delusion, lies, false dreams false prophecy, messages of peace when there will be no peace (1 Th. 5:3):

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12:16-17 NKJ)

And thus the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled, during the days of the great tribulation when sun darkened and moon turned into blood:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt. 24:29 NKJ)

17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' (Acts 2:17-21 NKJ)

I don't understand the confusion about these things, they are plainly revealed in the Scripture of Truth.

The Coming False Christ And His Followers | End Time News

23 "Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `There!' do not believe it. 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 "See, I have told you beforehand. 26 "Therefore if they say to you, `Look,

endtimenews.net

 

[stovebolts]

I agree 100% But I don't accept claims of supernatural gifts "sight unseen". I'm a skeptic, a cessationist. But I don't rule out God can't do what He wants, anytime He wants to.

Good to hear.
My wife and I found ourselves in a “full gospel” church. We’re still learning the lingo lol! One of the gals who grew up in that movement shared her wisdom when she said, “You need discernment”.

So yes, I understand your skepticism. It is warranted in many cases.

I do believe these gifts will return in the End Time Week,

I’m not familiar with that terminology. But thank you for providing me the passages to ponder.

 

[Hopeful]

Pausist, it fits.

When is a gift from God needed? Whenever God says so:

During the Great Tribulation Adonikam the son of Destruction (Gen. 3:15; 2 Th. 2:3) is slaughtering Christians and Jews, so they cry out to Yahweh God in the name of Jesus Yahweh the Son. God will answer with the latter rain, to counter the river of spiritism spewed from the Dragon's mouth that is attempting to carry the church away into idolatry with false prophecy and lying signs and wonders (1 Cor. 12:2; 1 Th. 2:9-12)

1 Ask the LORD for rain In the time of the latter rain. The LORD will make flashing clouds; He will give them showers of rain, Grass in the field for everyone.
2 For the idols speak delusion; The diviners envision lies, And tell false dreams; They comfort in vain. Therefore the people wend their way like sheep; They are in trouble because there is no shepherd.
3 "My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle. (Zech. 10:1-3 NKJ)

This is depicted symbolically in John's vision. The TARES cast into the outer courtyard of the Temple surround the true believers of God worshiping Him at His altar:

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. (Rev. 11:1-2 NKJ)

These "Gentile" dwellers of the earth greedily swallow up every drop of the river of spiritism fueling their strong delusion, lies, false dreams false prophecy, messages of peace when there will be no peace (1 Th. 5:3):

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12:16-17 NKJ)

And thus the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled, during the days of the great tribulation when sun darkened and moon turned into blood:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt. 24:29 NKJ)

17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' (Acts 2:17-21 NKJ)

I don't understand the confusion about these things, they are plainly revealed in the Scripture of Truth.

The Coming False Christ And His Followers | End Time News

23 "Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `There!' do not believe it. 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 "See, I have told you beforehand. 26 "Therefore if they say to you, `Look,

endtimenews.net

God can and will grant gifts at His pleasure.
But the gift of the Holy Ghost is promised by Peter for all who will turn from sin and get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
That gift is manifested by speaking in tongues today, as it was back in the days of the twelve at Ephesus. (Acts 19:6)

 

[Alfred Persson]

God can and will grant gifts at His pleasure.
But the gift of the Holy Ghost is promised by Peter for all who will turn from sin and get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
That gift is manifested by speaking in tongues today, as it was back in the days of the twelve at Ephesus. (Acts 19:6)

I agreed with you up until the gift of the Holy Spirit being manifested by tongues. I don't believe that. In fact, on the Day of Pentecost its implied the 3,000 saved that day received the Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues. prophesy or do any signs. If they did, it would have been mentioned with their actions after receiving the Holy Spirit.

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)

 

[jaybo]

I agreed with you up until the gift of the Holy Spirit being manifested by tongues. I don't believe that. In fact, on the Day of Pentecost its implied the 3,000 saved that day received the Holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues. prophesy or do any signs. If they did, it would have been mentioned with their actions after receiving the Holy Spirit.

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)

It saddens me that you lack the faith to believe that God can give whichever gifts He wants to whomever He wants whenever He wants.

On the day I became a Christian, when I was in the hospital with severe asthma, a pastor prayed for me: "Jesus, heal this man". The spasm immediately broke and I immediately became a Christian (formerly an atheist). Two days later I prayed to God for my prayer language and I immediately "spoke in tongues", something I have done daily for 45 years.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It saddens me that you lack the faith to believe that God can give whichever gifts He wants to whomever He wants whenever He wants.

On the day I became a Christian, when I was in the hospital with severe asthma, a pastor prayed for me: "Jesus, heal this man". The spasm immediately broke and I immediately became a Christian (formerly an atheist). Two days later I prayed to God for my prayer language and I immediately "spoke in tongues", something I have done daily for 45 years.

That's NOT what I said. Of course God can give gifts to anyone He choose. I reject all must speak in tongues or they don't have the Holy Spirit. Its very clear, even on the Day of Pentecost the outward physical evidence the 3,000 received the Holy Spirit was in their love for God's people and love for God's Truth. We see that in Acts 2:42

If they had spoken in tongues or prophesied etc., it would be listed in Acts 2:42 listing the changes the Holy Spirit made when they were born again:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)

That is the "born again experience" all who receive the Holy Spirit have, since the Day of Pentecost. Notice ONLY the apostles did the signs and wonders. THEN Acts 2;43 says "all who believed were together", meaning they all had the same born again experience EVEN if they were one of the 120 who spoke in tongues.

So there were not "haves and have nots" on the Day of Pentecost, they were One body baptized in One Spirit. But it was known the 120 foundational apostles and prophets had special grace to found the Christian Church:

3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given (5485 χάρις charis) according to the measure of Christ's gift.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph. 4:3-13 NKJ)

The risen Christ who ascended from the lower parts of the earth ascended far above all the heavens, and then as KING LORD He gave the Church foundational apostles prophets etc. But all are not apostles, all are not prophets, therefore all do not have the same "grace (5485 χάρις charis)" or gifts.

And as the foundational apostles and prophets were specially chosen by Christ to found Christianity, and they didn't have successors, no one else was given their special gifts.

But as there is "one body and one Spirit...one hope one Lord one faith ONE BAPTISM" we all have the same baptism in the Spirit when we believed, and we all manifest the same outward physical evidence we received the Spirit....the same born again experience reported in Acts 2:42, love for God's People and Love for God's Truth.

 

[jaybo]

That's NOT what I said. Of course God can give gifts to anyone He choose. I reject all must speak in tongues or they don't have the Holy Spirit. Its very clear, even on the Day of Pentecost the outward physical evidence the 3,000 received the Holy Spirit was in their love for God's people and love for God's Truth. We see that in Acts 2:42

If they had spoken in tongues or prophesied etc., it would be listed in Acts 2:42 listing the changes the Holy Spirit made when they were born again:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)

That is the "born again experience" all who receive the Holy Spirit have, since the Day of Pentecost. Notice ONLY the apostles did the signs and wonders. THEN Acts 2;43 says "all who believed were together", meaning they all had the same born again experience EVEN if they were one of the 120 who spoke in tongues.

So there were not "haves and have nots" on the Day of Pentecost, they were One body baptized in One Spirit. But it was known the 120 foundational apostles and prophets had special grace to found the Christian Church:

3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given (5485 χάρις charis) according to the measure of Christ's gift.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Eph. 4:3-13 NKJ)

The risen Christ who ascended from the lower parts of the earth ascended far above all the heavens, and then as KING LORD He gave the Church foundational apostles prophets etc. But all are not apostles, all are not prophets, therefore all do not have the same "grace (5485 χάρις charis)" or gifts.

And as the foundational apostles and prophets were specially chosen by Christ to found Christianity, and they didn't have successors, no one else was given their special gifts.

But as there is "one body and one Spirit...one hope one Lord one faith ONE BAPTISM" we all have the same baptism in the Spirit when we believed, and we all manifest the same outward physical evidence we received the Spirit....the same born again experience reported in Acts 2:42, love for God's People and Love for God's Truth.

I didn't read your entire post. However, I will respond to "all must speak in tongues or they don't have the Holy Spirit." Scripture doesn't say that, so I'm not sure where you got that idea. Speaking in tongues is a gift from God to whomever He chooses. I happen to be one of those people.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I didn't read your entire post. However, I will respond to "all must speak in tongues or they don't have the Holy Spirit." Scripture doesn't say that, so I'm not sure where you got that idea. Speaking in tongues is a gift from God to whomever He chooses. I happen to be one of those people.

So we both agree on that. I was responding to Hopeful who said "the gift of the Holy Ghost is for all who will turn from sin and get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38) That gift is manifested by speaking in tongues today."

Evidently we both agree that is incorrect.

Although I don't believe tongues are for our day, it does not follow I believe the tongues you manifest are not "of God".

They can be. I can't possibly know, I am not God.

I can only say, for myself, I don't speak in tongues and don't think I'm missing anything----I believe the Bible gives me greater communion with God than any prayer language my mind likely won't understand.

With Holy Scripture, both my mind and my spirit are edified, both understand completely what is the good and acceptable will of God.

When people demand I believe tongues are for our day because they speak in tongues----I can't agree.

The Bible alone is my authority.

I have learned to trust the Bible is 100% true EVEN WHEN MY EXPERIENCES indicate otherwise.

I should rephrase that: THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN MY EXPERIENCES WERE DECEVING ME, and the Bible saved me from believing the lie.

As I won't believe MY EXPERIENCES against the witness of the Bible, I certainly won't believe your experiences against the Bible.

You should applaud my fidelity to Holy Scripture, the Word of God.

For it is written:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)