Third Temple Update

[GodspromisesRyes]

i still do not get this " third temple" talk and "reinstituting sacrifice" have people read the word of God?

The third temple is already here and has been here for 2000 years! we are told over and over and over again in the word of God that WE are the temple! We are told over and over that it is US who have daily sacrifice unto God! Why are people speaking of a third temple that is a building that God will never dwell in and where no sacrifice will ever be accepted instead of looking to the One Jesus did build and where sacrifices happen daily? The bible never says the jews are gonna build another temple in the end times. Now if they do so what? That isnt what the bible prophecies or says is the temple of GOD. It is certianly not the temple that the man of sin will sit in and cause the abomination of deslation to happen in the word is very clear on this. it is in the body of CHRIST that this will happen, exactly like it did in Jesus day! too many traditions of carnal men have taught the church for too long and the clear plain explination of scripture explaining scripture is ignored most of the time

 

[Cornelius]

i still do not get this " third temple" talk and "reinstituting sacrifice" have people read the word of God?

The third temple is already here and has been here for 2000 years! we are told over and over and over again in the word of God that WE are the temple! We are told over and over that it is US who have daily sacrifice unto God! Why are people speaking of a third temple that is a building that God will never dwell in and where no sacrifice will ever be accepted instead of looking to the One Jesus did build and where sacrifices happen daily? The bible never says the jews are gonna build another temple in the end times. Now if they do so what? That isnt what the bible prophecies or says is the temple of GOD. It is certianly not the temple that the man of sin will sit in and cause the abomination of deslation to happen in the word is very clear on this. it is in the body of CHRIST that this will happen, exactly like it did in Jesus day! too many traditions of carnal men have taught the church for too long and the clear plain explination of scripture explaining scripture is ignored most of the time

100% correct.

The Jews might try and build one in the natural, but the temple in the Bible is spiritual.

 

[veteran]

That Rev.11:1-2 Scripture is talking about a temple, and it's not in Heaven. AND, there is to be a Milennial Temple per God's Word also, that's what Ezekiel 40 forward is about.

When the Apostle Paul mentioned the "son of perdition" sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God per 2 Thess.2:3-4, he was speaking of a literal physical temple in Jerusalem. Christ's Body as the temple per the end of Ephesians 2 is not the same thing, for the spiritual temple of Christ's many membered body points to Christ's TRUE body of believers that will NOT be deceived, nor fall away (apostate). What Paul is covering in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is the apostates ("falling away") that will be deceived by the antichrist sitting in a literal temple in Jerusalem.

Already some of that has begun, the proof being Christian groups that are willing to support its rebuilding by sending funds and forming companies like Jesus, Inc. to supply red heifers for animal sacrifice. For a Christian to support such a thing, it truly means becoming apostate away from our Lord Jesus Christ. It's even to accept the lie that Christ did not die on the cross.

 

[veteran]

The vision of the Holy City John was given in Revelation 21:10 forward is the same vision Ezekiel was given starting at Ezekiel 40 forward. It is to include a temple or sanctuary during the milennium.

I don't know if posting this link is allowed, but here's Appendix 88 from the 19th century Christian Hebrew scholar E.W. Bullinger in The Companion Bible showing its layout in the area of Jerusalem. The Holy City including the oblation of all the priests will be 60 sq. miles:

http://levendwater.org/companion/append88.html

Our Lord Jesus through John had no need to reveal all the detailed dimensions again, which were already given in Ezekiel 40 forward. Christ's servants were already supposed to have read and studied that layout in Ezekiel before getting to the Revelation layout. Have you done that, and if not, why not?

 

[researcher]

That Rev.11:1-2 Scripture is talking about a temple, and it's not in Heaven. AND, there is to be a Milennial Temple per God's Word also, that's what Ezekiel 40 forward is about.

The Revelation 11:1&2 mention was about Jerusalem being destroyed in the first century though.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 14:19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Those verses are all about the same thing, a historic event involving the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

 

[veteran]

Yeah, I know some believe our Lord Jesus was talking about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the Olivet Discourse. How is it then, many of the same ones who treat that destruction of Jerusalem part of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as literal, but then treat the other parts of the Scripture there about His second coming to gather His saints as metaphorical? Obviously, that disagrees even with itself.

I was raised in a Church that was basically on the Preterist doctrines, so I know what that's about. And evidently the SDA folks agree with some of that. I don't.

 

[researcher]

Yeah, I know some believe our Lord Jesus was talking about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the Olivet Discourse. How is it then, many of the same ones who treat that destruction of Jerusalem part of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as literal, but then treat the other parts of the Scripture there about His second coming to gather His saints as metaphorical? Obviously, that disagrees even with itself.

I was raised in a Church that was basically on the Preterist doctrines, so I know what that's about. And evidently the SDA folks agree with some of that. I don't.

I grew up in a church believing the opposite of preterism. I changed my mind later (to partial preterism).

But, whatever Jesus said would happen, must have happened. It could be that we are misunderstanding what he meant. Literal or not, He said it. Lol. ;) :D

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Audience: The 12 disciples
Promise: That He'd be back before they finished evangelizing Israel

 

[veteran]

Since all the following Scripture references counter the Preterist interpretation of Christ's second coming as symbolic only, what does that mean, since God's Word does not contradict itself?

Acts 1:10-12
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

Zech 14:2-5
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)

Matt 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Those above Scriptures are 'direct' type statements, not symbolic statements. It's easy to distinguish when our Lord Jesus was giving a parable or allegory in His Word compared to direct statements of truth.

As I said before, the Preterist view takes events out of Matthew 24 what it wants to interpret literally, and interprets the rest of the events it can't find a historical link to, like Christ's second coming in Matt.24:30-31, in the spiritual symbolic sense only. When the Apostle Peter was talking about the day of The Lord coming and the elements being burned up and the heavens being on fire, especially after he had given the example of a previous destruction on earth by a flood, it's impossible to interpret that as a spiritual parable, or as symbolic, and not literal.

For those reasons, and many more in God's Word, I cannot agree with the Preterist views, for not all Bible prophecy has come to pass yet today. As long as my body has not gone through the "last trump" "twinkling of an eye" change to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 about the resurrection, then I know for sure much Bible prophecy is yet to be fulfilled today, especially Christ's second coming. Even the Church I was raised in still believed Christ's second coming is still future, even though they borrowed many ideas from the Preterist views about Bible prophecy.

 

[researcher]

Since all the following Scripture references counter the Preterist interpretation of Christ's second coming as symbolic only, what does that mean, since God's Word does not contradict itself?

Acts 1:10-12
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

It means that either the visuals of the "second coming" were local (over Jerusalem and to the Jews in the city when it was being destroyed), or it happens after the "millenium" i.e. at the Great White Throne judgement.

I think if we look closely, Jesus was talking about "local" events, especially concerning the Jews and Jerusalem.

Hint: The words "earth" and "land" in the NT are the same word in the Greek. That word was just interpreted differently by different scholars.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

That Rev.11:1-2 Scripture is talking about a temple, and it's not in Heaven. AND, there is to be a Milennial Temple per God's Word also, that's what Ezekiel 40 forward is about.

When the Apostle Paul mentioned the "son of perdition" sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God per 2 Thess.2:3-4, he was speaking of a literal physical temple in Jerusalem. Christ's Body as the temple per the end of Ephesians 2 is not the same thing, for the spiritual temple of Christ's many membered body points to Christ's TRUE body of believers that will NOT be deceived, nor fall away (apostate). What Paul is covering in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is the apostates ("falling away") that will be deceived by the antichrist sitting in a literal temple in Jerusalem.

Already some of that has begun, the proof being Christian groups that are willing to support its rebuilding by sending funds and forming companies like Jesus, Inc. to supply red heifers for animal sacrifice. For a Christian to support such a thing, it truly means becoming apostate away from our Lord Jesus Christ. It's even to accept the lie that Christ did not die on the cross.

This is all assumption. you are so far assuming that it is a literal physical temple in jerusalem.The word is clear that the kingdom of God is within us and that some will fall away from this kingdom and their heavenly postion with Christ.There are those amoung us who feast with us whose god is their belly and they will fall away and leave us. Indeed judas himself was not only amoung the aposltles he was an aposlte, he preached as they did the works as they, he sat and break bread with them in the love feast, he was chosen by God and fell away. he is who the bible calls the son of perdition. the bible has already given us the perfect examples of this same thing. Only twice in the word is the term " son of perdition' used. Once is for judas who betrayed the Lord and was the only one given to Jesus that was lost- the other is speaking of the falling away the man of sin the son of perdition who will be revealed.he that is revealed is the son of periditon(judas) who sits in the temple.The scripture does not teach a seperate antichrist who is gonna sit in a temple that is physical. that is tradition but not scripture. john further helps us see this happen.
1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

again we see that the antichrists are amoung us and they will go out from US that it may be made MANIFEST(REVEALED) who they are.

this is a good topic with much that can be shown in scripture. if you are intereted in having it tell me and i will start a thread on it and show alot more from the word about this proving who these are and where they sit

 

[Cornelius]

That Rev.11:1-2 Scripture is talking about a temple, and it's not in Heaven. AND, there is to be a Milennial Temple per God's Word also, that's what Ezekiel 40 forward is about.

When the Apostle Paul mentioned the "son of perdition" sitting in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God per 2 Thess.2:3-4, he was speaking of a literal physical temple in Jerusalem. Christ's Body as the temple per the end of Ephesians 2 is not the same thing, for the spiritual temple of Christ's many membered body points to Christ's TRUE body of believers that will NOT be deceived, nor fall away (apostate). What Paul is covering in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is the apostates ("falling away") that will be deceived by the antichrist sitting in a literal temple in Jerusalem.

Already some of that has begun, the proof being Christian groups that are willing to support its rebuilding by sending funds and forming companies like Jesus, Inc. to supply red heifers for animal sacrifice. For a Christian to support such a thing, it truly means becoming apostate away from our Lord Jesus Christ. It's even to accept the lie that Christ did not die on the cross.

This is all assumption. you are so far assuming that it is a literal physical temple in jerusalem.The word is clear that the kingdom of God is within us and that some will fall away from this kingdom and their heavenly postion with Christ.There are those amoung us who feast with us whose god is their belly and they will fall away and leave us. Indeed judas himself was not only amoung the aposltles he was an aposlte, he preached as they did the works as they, he sat and break bread with them in the love feast, he was chosen by God and fell away. he is who the bible calls the son of perdition. the bible has already given us the perfect examples of this same thing. Only twice in the word is the term " son of perdition' used. Once is for judas who betrayed the Lord and was the only one given to Jesus that was lost- the other is speaking of the falling away the man of sin the son of perdition who will be revealed.he that is revealed is the son of periditon(judas) who sits in the temple.The scripture does not teach a seperate antichrist who is gonna sit in a temple that is physical. that is tradition but not scripture. john further helps us see this happen.
1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

again we see that the antichrists are amoung us and they will go out from US that it may be made MANIFEST(REVEALED) who they are.

this is a good topic with much that can be shown in scripture. if you are intereted in having it tell me and i will start a thread on it and show alot more from the word about this proving who these are and where they sit

Amen, that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Cornelius]

Here we can see a clear picture of how the son of perdition is indeed in the church today,.........

The Real Apostolic Church
by Matthew J. Burdette

I was in prayer several nights ago, and God began to show me a vision. In this vision I saw one that I knew to be an Apostle out in the streets. He was healing the sick, wheelchair cases were getting up out of their chairs, shouting and praising God. He was as Jesus was when he walked the earth. The very power of heaven seemed to be at his disposal without effort. (At this same time, God began to speak to me, or reveal to me, what was happening, almost in a narrative sense.)

As the Apostle did the miraculous, he was also proclaimed the Kingdom of God to the people. His message did not veer from the message Peter preached on the day of Pentecost. It was "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Many believed his words, and obeyed his message. Great revival was present! As the Apostle continued to proclaim and work the miracles, I saw others come on the scene. These men were leaders in churches. God was not moving for them in the same way he was with the Apostle, yet they were carrying the title of "Apostolic." There was a hatred that came upon them for the Apostle. They despised his miracles, and began to say his power came from the devil. They cut him off from their fellowship, and began to persecute him. At this time I saw him in several different ways, or scenarios. Some of the "Apostolic" men began to try to turn the people away from the Apostle. Some followed them because they were Elders in the church. Their position and standing in the assembly swayed some to their view. They then began to fight the Apostle, throwing rocks at him, he was put in prison. He was even killed. It seemed strange, but as the Apostle suffered the persecution and was killed he still continued to do the work. Even after he was killed he was still there, preaching salvation, and showing God's power through the signs and wonders that he did.

As all this was being shown to me God was narrating the whole thing to me. This is what he was saying: ...."The Apostle is the Real Apostolic Church. He is my Ambassador to the world. He will demonstrate my power to the world, but he will hold the same doctrine that the first Apostles taught, any other doctrine negates him as my Ambassador. The Apostle will be men that do not limit me. They will ask for the impossible, so that I may get the Glory, because man could not do what they were asking. They will believe me for the limitless"....

As the scene changed, and the Apostle began to be persecuted, I seemed to know the interpretation as it happened. The Real Church will be persecuted by those that claim to be the church - much like the Pharisees persecuted Jesus. They will try to draw some away by speaking against the move of God through the Apostle (the Real Church). Some will follow them because they have been the leaders of the "church" for years. As God continues to move on the Real Church, they will hate all who stand with the Apostle. They will fight and cast false accusations, drawing some away. They will turn the governments that be against the Real Church. Men will be put in prison. Some will be put to death. Yet all the persecution will not destroy or stop the Real Apostolic Church from the task before them. The gates of hell will not prevail!!

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... realchurch

 

[veteran]

The word is clear that the kingdom of God is within us and that some will fall away from this kingdom and their heavenly postion with Christ.

Whether you agree or not, you actually support what I'm saying with the above statement.

Christ's True Body of believers does form the temple made WITHOUT hands. We don't need temple worship. It's the unbelieving that want a rebuilt temple, and that's the specific subject by Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 of a false one sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, thus causing the great falling away of some believers, those who loved not the truth. Christ's true Body would never fall away to a false one seeking to be worshipped in Christ's place, nor to temple animal sacrifices.

Also, in the context Paul is giving the Thessalonians, Judas Iscariot had already long since been dead. It should be clear then that Paul is not talking about Judas with that "son of perdition" title in 2 Thess.2.

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the twelve.
(KJV)

Why would our Lord Jesus early on in His Ministry say that Judas "is a devil"? It's because Judas would betray Him, and serve the negative side to have Jesus crucified. We cannot assign Judas as a true Apostle of The Lord, because Jesus pointed out early that he was not of them. As there are "many antichrists" (plural) also means there is a antichrist (singular). And the single antichrist has always been the devil himself. This is why our Lord said Judas "is a devil". That is also why the Apostle Paul used the title "son of perdition" for the devil in 2 Thess.2, and not Judas.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The word is clear that the kingdom of God is within us and that some will fall away from this kingdom and their heavenly postion with Christ.

Whether you agree or not, you actually support what I'm saying with the above statement.

Christ's True Body of believers does form the temple made WITHOUT hands. We don't need temple worship. It's the unbelieving that want a rebuilt temple, and that's the specific subject by Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 of a false one sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, thus causing the great falling away of some believers, those who loved not the truth. Christ's true Body would never fall away to a false one seeking to be worshipped in Christ's place, nor to temple animal sacrifices.

Also, in the context Paul is giving the Thessalonians, Judas Iscariot had already long since been dead. It should be clear then that Paul is not talking about Judas with that "son of perdition" title in 2 Thess.2.

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the twelve.
(KJV)

Why would our Lord Jesus early on in His Ministry say that Judas "is a devil"? It's because Judas would betray Him, and serve the negative side to have Jesus crucified. We cannot assign Judas as a true Apostle of The Lord, because Jesus pointed out early that he was not of them. As there are "many antichrists" (plural) also means there is a antichrist (singular). And the single antichrist has always been the devil himself. This is why our Lord said Judas "is a devil". That is also why the Apostle Paul used the title "son of perdition" for the devil in 2 Thess.2, and not Judas.

My point with judas is that he was the son of perdition- he is the example of what a son of perdition is. They are hidden in the body of believers as a believer. no one knows who they are.just as with jesus no one knew but him who the devil was. you cannot say he was not a true apostle becasue he had a postion that was given to him and had to be replaced when he fell away. 2 thess is about these people amoung us the templpe of God who show THEMSELVES to be God. judas made himself to be God he worshipped his own belly- lusts- and was always a thief steling from the brethern secretly. It is not those who will fall away who are tricked by someone in a temple itis those who fall away who are IN the temple(body of Christ) who are those who fall away are revealed and make themsselves God. They are not people who get decieved by a guy in a real temple offering animals. As beleivers it is US who sacirifce now every day unto God and it i sthese who fall away who cause the sacrifices of beleivers unto God to cease. They do this tow ways. Firstly any sacrifice they personally had daily to the Lord ends when they fall away and then they betray us and turn us over to be killed so that our daily sacrifice will also cease. God does not care about a building in the mid east or animals being killed. He cares about the true temple where aHe lives and the sacrirfices daily that we make of our lives unto him.







C excellnet mpost it reminded me of this scripture-Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do [exploits].


Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, [many] days.


Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


Dan 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed.

 

[veteran]

[quote="GodspromisesRyes]
My point with judas is that he was the son of perdition- he is the example of what a son of perdition is. They are hidden in the body of believers as a believer. no one knows who they are.just as with jesus no one knew but him who the devil was. you cannot say he was not a true apostle becasue he had a postion that was given to him and had to be replaced when he fell away. 2 thess is about these people amoung us the templpe of God who show THEMSELVES to be God. judas made himself to be God he worshipped his own belly- lusts- and was always a thief steling from the brethern secretly. It is not those who will fall away who are tricked by someone in a temple itis those who fall away who are IN the temple(body of Christ) who are those who fall away are revealed and make themsselves God. They are not people who get decieved by a guy in a real temple offering animals. As beleivers it is US who sacirifce now every day unto God and it i sthese who fall away who cause the sacrifices of beleivers unto God to cease. They do this tow ways. Firstly any sacrifice they personally had daily to the Lord ends when they fall away and then they betray us and turn us over to be killed so that our daily sacrifice will also cease. God does not care about a building in the mid east or animals being killed. He cares about the true temple where aHe lives and the sacrirfices daily that we make of our lives unto him. [/quote]

If you search the Scriptures about Judas Iscariot, you'll find he was chosen by Christ as one of the Apostles, that's undeniable. But early on we are shown he was not sincere, and coveted the bag (he was in charge of the money). He sought gain for himself is what the Scripture shows. His acts early on were not marking of a true Apostle.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Many refuse to read that very last phrase there, "that the scripture might be fulfilled". It was OT prophecy about the pieces of silver to deliver Christ up. Judas was made a vessel unto desctruciton for a purpose from the very start. That's what that reveals.

Paul's prophecy in 2 Thess.2 about the "son of perdition" is about a singualr entity, not many. The "many antichrists" idea being applied to that one in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is a tradition of men. Now that "mystery of iniquity" marker Paul mentioned later does cover the "many antichrists" idea. But not Paul's usage there of "son of perdition", "man of sin", and "that Wicked".

Traditions of men have tried to also totally disregard that the following Scripture has TWO objects:

I Jn 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(KJV)

The first is "antichrist" in the singular tense; the second is the "many antichrists" in the plural. A misreading of that by men's traditions is where the false idea originates that Paul was speaking of many sons of perdition in 2 Thess.2. He was not; he was speaking of a single entity coming to proclaim himself as God.

II Th 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,(KJV)

Rev 13:11-13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(KJV)

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

If you search the Scriptures about Judas Iscariot, you'll find he was chosen by Christ as one of the Apostles, that's undeniable. But early on we are shown he was not sincere, and coveted the bag (he was in charge of the money). He sought gain for himself is what the Scripture shows. His acts early on were not marking of a true Apostle.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Many refuse to read that very last phrase there, "that the scripture might be fulfilled". It was OT prophecy about the pieces of silver to deliver Christ up. Judas was made a vessel unto desctruciton for a purpose from the very start. That's what that reveals.

Paul's prophecy in 2 Thess.2 about the "son of perdition" is about a singualr entity, not many. The "many antichrists" idea being applied to that one in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is a tradition of men. Now that "mystery of iniquity" marker Paul mentioned later does cover the "many antichrists" idea. But not Paul's usage there of "son of perdition", "man of sin", and "that Wicked".

Traditions of men have tried to also totally disregard that the following Scripture has TWO objects:

I Jn 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(KJV)

The first is "antichrist" in the singular tense; the second is the "many antichrists" in the plural. A misreading of that by men's traditions is where the false idea originates that Paul was speaking of many sons of perdition in 2 Thess.2. He was not; he was speaking of a single entity coming to proclaim himself as God.


(KJV)

We are not disagreeing about judas always having been a devil, the is exactly the point, Yes he was always a devil but he was also an apostle, a devil HIDDEN in the body of Christ and no one but Jesus knew who he was. He was an antichrist making himself God(because his god was his own belly) while he was in the body of believers, being considered by everyone a believer and while breaking bread and wine with believers. So too are the sons of perdition who are in the body now, who are hidden amoung us as memebers of Christ, who will eventually mid trib time fall away and be revealed for who they were just as judas was hidden until he departed fromthem and that is when he was revealed as the devil. So too they will remain hidden until they go out from us and we will then know they never were of us but are antichrists but until then we do not know only Jesus does. They are still members of the body of Christ today and will fall away and God will destroy them for destroying His temple and for not loving the truth.
As far as what you are saying about there being only one son of perdition not many we can see from 2 thess 2 this is not true, it follow the same biblical pattern that is constant in scripture. A body of people is spoken of first as singular, then shown to be made of many people. For instance the Body of Christ is spoken of in singular one body, but we know we are all members there of,many. So too is the body of antichrist. It is one body ruled over by the spirit of error, made of many members hence the words antichrist, and antichrists in john. It is the exact opposite as we are In christ. This is why john goes to such detail to compair the body of Christ to the those in the world, Christ in us, and the spirit of error or antichrist in them.
We see the same thing in 2 thess 2, Paul begins speaking in singular then shows us that it is many that make up that body.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is a body of many members who are ruled over by the same spirit in them. The spirit does not fall away, it is already fallen away- it is the people who have this spirit of perdition who fall away and apostasise. revealing that they had a false spirit. it is that spirit that rules over and is in them that in them while they are in the body of Christ, make himself to be god, the bible describes these people as their god being their own bellies, they are like cain and korah and balaam. revelation tells us that this spirit who will indwell these people and in them will speak against God and us and make war on usjust like judas did and who will cause these people to fall away from their former heavenly postions in Christ is the spirit of appollyon which means destrution and goes into all those who are going into perdition.

 

[veteran]

So you don't see a difference between that "son of perdition" Paul mentions there compared with those who fall away because of that false one's actions?

Have today's school systems failed so miserably in teaching English grammar that many can no longer distinguish between pronouns like "himself", "he", "his" in the singular vs. "them" and "they" which is in the plural?

The subject and object of what Paul's saying there in 2 Thess.2 is about a particular false one that does false acts to cause the deceived to wrongly worship him. It's about a deceiver, and then the deceived. The deceiver is a singular entity per the grammar there, the "he", "his", "himself"; the deceived is a group, "they", "them".

The title "son of perdition" is specifically a title that belongs to the devil himself. It's from the Greek word 'apollumi' which means 'to destroy fully' which is also given to Satan as a proper name:

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon[/b].
(KJV)

Another reason why that "son of perdition" title belongs to Satan, is because at this time right now, ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to 'perish' in the future "lake of fire" event! Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced yet today! No one else has, because... the time of Final Judgment has not yet come today.

Since Judas had long since been dead when the Apostle Paul wrote that warning to the Thessalonians, there's no way to add Judas into that picture there of that Wicked one. Paul was speaking of an event yet to come in his own day.

So trying to turn that "son of perdition" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 into a group of people is to take his message there totally out of the context.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

So you don't see a difference between that "son of perdition" Paul mentions there compared with those who fall away because of that false one's actions?

Have today's school systems failed so miserably in teaching English grammar that many can no longer distinguish between pronouns like "himself", "he", "his" in the singular vs. "them" and "they" which is in the plural?

many times scripture itself speaking of something in the singular then shows it is more than one literal person that make up that singular body, it has nothing to do with english it has to do with many people of the same spirit whether holy or wicked being united into one body.

The subject and object of what Paul's saying there in 2 Thess.2 is about a particular false one that does false acts to cause the deceived to wrongly worship him. It's about a deceiver, and then the deceived. The deceiver is a singular entity per the grammar there, the "he", "his", "himself"; the deceived is a group, "they", "them".

The title "son of perdition" is specifically a title that belongs to the devil himself. It's from the Greek word 'apollumi' which means 'to destroy fully' which is also given to Satan as a proper name:

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon[/b].
(KJV)

Another reason why that "son of perdition" title belongs to Satan, is because at this time right now, ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to 'perish' in the future "lake of fire" event! Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced yet today! No one else has, because... the time of Final Judgment has not yet come today.

Since Judas had long since been dead when the Apostle Paul wrote that warning to the Thessalonians, there's no way to add Judas into that picture there of that Wicked one. Paul was speaking of an event yet to come in his own day.

So trying to turn that "son of perdition" Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 into a group of people is to take his message there totally out of the context.

you have a good point here, it is true there is a particular false one, but that is not a man but an angel king. it is this spirit of apollyon(perdition) that will come out of the bottomless pit and inhabir all who go into perdition which are the sons of perdition. it is not one man who gets others fo follow him. this is the mystery of iniquity- it is the spirit of evil dwelling in their flesh, just as the mystery of godliness was the Spirit of God in flesh. this evil spirit going into all who are of perdition makes up the whole body of the antichrist this spirit being the spiritual head just like Christ is in us and is our spiritual head of the body of Christ.
the title son of perdition does not belong to satan. it was a title given only to judas and these being talked about in 2 thess 2. Jesus himslef said that judas was lost. i am not saying that 2 th4ess 2 is talking about the physical person of judas- i am saying that the sons of perdition in 2 thess are judas's they are betrayers, filled with the antichrist apollyon perdition spirit secretly while they are amoung us the brethern and when they go away from us to betray us because of their own lusts then they will be revealed for who they were.
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus h imself said that judas was lost to fulfill prophecy and so will these sons of perdition in the mid trib time be lost and not kept to fulfill the 2 thess 2 prophecy. they are sons of perdition because they are men possessed with that spirit- just as how jesus said to the pharasees you are of your father the devil. the son is not the spirit itself but the people who follow or are inhabited with that spirit of perditionRev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

that spirit will go into perdition- that is all those who are of destruction. it may help more to look at these people other places in scripture i will come back and give some of that when i can

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

vt i am just gonna give the verses for where else some of these sons of perdition can be found in scriture if you care to look at them.

heb 10:26-39 (39 shows that they were believers who went back INTO PERDITION)

2 peter 3:7 (perdition of ungodly MEN)

2 peter 2:12-22

jude 1:3-19

If you read about all these examples of people and compair them to judas, who Jesus called the " son of perdition" who God gave him but who was lost to fulfill the scriptures, it is easier to see how those in 2 thess 2 are in the same spirit and example and those will fall away and just as the first son of perdition, these will fulfill the prophecy in like manner.

 

[veteran]

Can't agree with your spiritualizing of the "son of perdition" GodspromisesRyes,

What you're trying to do with the "son of perdition" title in 2 Thess.2:3 is what many try to also do with the 1 John 2:18 verse about "antichrist" compared to the "many antichrists". Many try to totally do away with the singular entity "antichrist" which John mentioned first. You're doing the same thing, except with the "son of perdition" title Paul gave in the CONTEXT of a single entity...

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

Paul is giving specific events that must happen prior to Christ's second coming.

1. A "falling away first"
2. "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition";
3. "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

All those specific events are about a specific false one causing that falling away of the deceived. The deceived themselves are not sons of perdition, that "son of perdition" title is not even plural anywhere in God's Word. Those 3 events are not in that specific order, as they all relate to each other about a specific entity causing the great apostasy of the deceived ("falling away").

Of course that false one is going to have help, and his helpers are the "many antichrists", called the "workers of iniquity" of the Old Testament, for that's the "mystery of iniquity" Paul was talking about saying it was already at work, i.e., the "tares" mixed in among Israel especially.

Rev 12:7-13
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The devil cast down to this earth? How can that be? Not only the devil Satan will be cast down to this earth in the near future, but his angels are coming along with him! That's going to be a LITERAL event.


Rev.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.(KJV)

That persecution timing is the 1260 days, or 42 months, or the 3 years and a half, the time of the "great tribulation".

Those who want to spiritualize all that away are only lying to theirselves, because they aren't ready for that coming event in our near future. The devil himself coming here on earth with his angels will be the least event the deceived would ever expect. That's who John was speaking about with "antichrist must come", and who Paul was speaking of with the "son of perdition" causing the great falling away of the deceived.

We know per Ezekiel 28 that the cherub Satan was made the full pattern of beauty. He doesn't carry a pitchfork nor dress up in red flannel underwear, nor does he have horns. He's a beautiful cherub. Many will thus truly believe that he is God when he shall appear working greats signs and wonders on the earth in the sight of men (Rev.13:11 forward). That's who the second beast of Rev.13 is. And he's going to come meek like a lamb, but speak as the dragon, for that's who he really is, the dragon, yet another title for Satan. And his angels are going to come with him being cast down to this earth.