Those who don't believe in free-will, why do so many verse's claim it??

[reba]

smaller says-----No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

Grubal -----Matthew 7:7 states, "Ask, and it shall be given you; "SEEK", and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Seek is something that happens BEFORE you find...We first "hear" the word, the Spirit convicts and we follow up (seek after) by placing our faith...

Grub Good verse matt 7;7 but

Romans 3; 10 is every bit as much scripture...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[glorydaz]

Grub Good verse matt 7;7 but

Romans 3; 10 is every bit as much scripture...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Which is obviously a generalization of most of mankind, or a comparitive to God's holiness. You see a lot of that in the OT, which Paul was schooled in. It gets the point across. To get a better idea if speaking in general terms, we need only read the OT beginning with Cain and Abel. If you go through from the beginning, there were many that did seek after God, and many that were called righteous by God. I see it, also, as comparing mankind to the Holiness of God. The only one that wouldn't fit in that description anywhere would be Jesus Christ.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grub Good verse matt 7;7 but

Romans 3; 10 is every bit as much scripture...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Matthew 7:7 offers "hope" to mankind...The verses you offered (although true as well) talk about the carnal, fleshly unsaved man. See the difference?? In conclusion even though "unsaved" man is in a (spiritual Predicament) there is hope for his forgiveness and mercy through Christ...

 

[Jam]

How can a man make any decision totally devoid of influence?

Aha! This is part of the point I have made a couple of times already - we cannot make any decision totally devoid of influence; no. So we at least still agree that our will is not free in that we cannot do whatever we like: it is limited by influences such as our environment and our inborn characteristics. And our selves - the "us" that make the choices/decisions - is a result of this environment and these characteristics.

The very nature of man would encompass that his ability to make choices is not contingent upon having various influences from one source or another. Otherwise, he would not be a man(woman).

My apologies; is there any chance of you rephrasing this? I'm not sure I follow... when I first read this I thought you were saying that man's inherent nature meant that he could make choices without influences, but obviously I'm misunderstanding because that would contradict the last sentence 2

Let's put this aspect to rest, can we?
I am talking about "free will". That ability to make a choice based upon whatever influences he so wishes to engage or encounters yet not being forced nor coerced by anyone or anything and surely not a false choice predesignated by God.

How can a person only make a choice based only on influences that he wishes to take into account? We cannot choose our influences.

And what do you mean by a false choice? A "wrong" one? An immoral one?

There's the flaw in your argument in red. Man has not existed forever, but God has, and His ways are written in the heart of man...."clearly seen" by man as Rom. 1 points out.

God has created us with the capacity to know right from wrong by instilling us with a conscience whereby we know God. Man's choice of whether to heed that or not comes from within his own heart.

My argument is not relient upon man's eternal existence; indeed, if man had existed forever/"first" then a case for free will could be made. When you say heart, I presume you mean the self/soul/spirit (not the Holy Spirit), as the authors of scripture mean when they say heart? If so, then I'm not denying that we make choices our selves. But the choices we make are necessarily dependent upon external factors, such as our environment, and internal factors, such as our "hearts" and inborn characteristics- all of which are the result of causal paths leading back to external factors.

Also, could you clarify the verse of Romans 1 to which you are referring? I don't follow




Also, ladies and gentlemen, how do supporters of free will respond to chapters like Ephesians 1? I'm not positing the predestination in Ephesians 1 as ruling out the existence of free will as, to be honest, it's not a chapter that I have studied to a great extent. But yeah, I'd just like to know how you respond to it! I wasn't sure what to make of it the first time I ever read it.

Today's NIV, Ephesians 3-12:
³Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ⁴For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love ⁵he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will - ⁶to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. ⁷In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace ⁸that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, ⁹he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, ¹⁰to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment - to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
¹¹In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, ¹²in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Youngs Literal Translation, Ephesians 3-12


³Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, ⁴according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, ⁵having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, ⁶to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved, ⁷in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, ⁸in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, ⁹having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, ¹⁰in regard to the dispensation of the fullness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; ¹¹in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will, ¹²for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,

 

[smaller]

smaller says-----No one seeks...WHY? Because ALL are prior to belief BLINDED by the WILL of the TEMPTER.

Grubal -----Matthew 7:7 states, "Ask, and it shall be given you; "SEEK", and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Seek is something that happens BEFORE you find...We first "hear" the word, the Spirit convicts and we follow up (seek after) by placing our faith...

Again and again you take no account of the will of the blinder, the god of this world. And no wonder. That blinding will works in many different ways, even after conversion.

s

 

[smaller]

So then, if I follow you correctly, you believe that the blind will supercedes the intellect and is simply our evolutionary mechanism for survival?

Evolutionary? Sorry, not in my theology repertoire.

Does God dwell with you and in you? Then 'there' is an operational Will that is not yours also working 'in you.'

Does the tempter insert temptation thought into your mind? Then there is an operational will that is not yours also working 'in you.'

That there is no hope for anything but the influence of evil, such as by satan? ...that we have no choice in the matter because of this simple matter of surviving and evolving?

Everything has Divine Reasons and Intents including Gods binding of all men to disobedience.

s

 

[smaller]

Satan is in charge of this world system and provides plenty of temptation, but if you believe satan has any real power, then you're just believing one of his lies. Satan isn't omni-anything.

If the devil, satan, is connected to 'all sin' which the devil is according to 1 John 3:8 then the implications of that would imply a very certain amount of power. Again, you are welcome to overlook and brush off the facts of these matters and attempt to diminish them. There is a reason 'you are led' to do that.

Many believers think that if they ignore those particular facts for themselves the facts go away.

Satan doesn't have to mess with unbelievers because he's preaching to the choir.

Well, that's your opinion, but it is not the presentation of scripture. Scripture says the 'god of this world' blinds the minds of UNbelievers, inclusive of all believers prior to conversion.

He blinds them by providing occasions for the flesh in this world system.

Take a look at your own pretzel logic in this matter. You just finished saying the devil doesn't have to mess with unbelievers and then acknowledge that he blinds unbelievers.

..lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those all come from the world.

The discussions of theodicy rightfully include the working of anti-Christ spirits. Uh, that would be 'devils.' One does not 'see' them, though the world is full of 'their' activity IN MANKIND.

Sin is a progression from thought to word to deed. The operation starts with internal lusts of various forms and those lusts are inserted by the devil, promoting men to sin and slavery.

The Light of the Gospel of Christ is far brighter than anything else, and when it finds an unsaved man whose heart has been softened (the good ground), then he will draw near to the light. When that light shines on his sins, he can repent and follow the light or turn away.

Your logic is that of most freewillers, totally discounting the will of the devil in blinding people. The devil could care less about the Gospel and DOES make UNbelievers UNable to hear or respond.

And even that working is 'allowed' and even 'directed' by Gods speaking His Words and the devil responding to same 'immediately' to RESIST.

As the UNbeliever listens to the Words, Satan steals same and inserts counter thoughts.

Satan is certainly not in anyone's heart. You're believing one of satan's lies.

That is again your opinion. Your opinion is NOT the teaching of Jesus' Words.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It's pretty easy to me to see who is blinded between what you just said and what Jesus said.

Anyone who reads the above from Jesus, and there are other like scriptures, and hears a voice in their mind/thoughts that says 'that doesn't happen to you' is actually a VICTIM of SATAN already. It's a common form of internal lie inserted by Satan.

Satan is external, the world is external, and only the flesh is internal.

Well, you are getting quite ridiculous now. Jesus showed us that devils were IN MAN and cast out THOUSANDS of them from WITHIN man.

Obviously something 'in you' doesn't seem to be taking the information too well. Sorry. Can't help you reconcile facts. God also has reasons for not letting believers hear as well.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Gazelle]

Smaller... the idea of a "blind will" is one instrumental in Arthur Schopenhauer's philosophical work.
(1788-1860). Schopenhauer was, as a philosopher,and a pessimist believing that "the cosmic will is wicked ... and the source of all endless suffering." This is where the evolutionistic concepts enter, as he believed we are only active due to our instincts, of which the will was.

He was also a follower of Kant who asserted that, "because of the limitations of argumentation in the absence of irrefutable evidence, no one could really know whether there is a God and an afterlife or not."
Rather than having individual wills we are "simply part of a vast and single will that pervades the universe: that the feeling of separateness that each of has is but an illusion."
These are the people who help develop the idea of a "blind will."

Unfortunately Schopenhaur didn't follow Kant in the idea of maybe a God being behind happiness...for whatever reason a person determined his need to believe in a God.

The idea of a blind will is evolutionary. A.C. Seward writes of Darwin in connection to the will: "For the individual, he said, there is an a priori, original, basis (or Anlage) for all mental life; but in the species all powers have developed in reciprocity with external conditions." And human thought is a variation (or a mutation) which has been able to persist and to survive eliminating automatically, instinctively any mental processes determined to be of no value.

Give me incidences of the "blind will" found in Scripture and I'll continue to pursue this with you. Perhaps your definition is a subjective one and not one linked to the philosophies of unbelievers?

 

[smaller]

Smaller... the idea of a "blind will" is one instrumental in Arthur Schopenhauer's philosophical work.
(1788-1860). Schopenhauer was, as a philosopher,and a pessimist believing that "the cosmic will is wicked ... and the source of all endless suffering." This is where the evolutionistic concepts enter, as he believed we are only active due to our instincts, of which the will was.

He was also a follower of Kant who asserted that, "because of the limitations of argumentation in the absence of irrefutable evidence, no one could really know whether there is a God and an afterlife or not."
Rather than having individual wills we are "simply part of a vast and single will that pervades the universe: that the feeling of separateness that each of has is but an illusion."
These are the people who help develop the idea of a "blind will."

Unfortunately Schopenhaur didn't follow Kant in the idea of maybe a God being behind happiness...for whatever reason a person determined his need to believe in a God.

The idea of a blind will is evolutionary. A.C. Seward writes of Darwin in connection to the will: "For the individual, he said, there is an a priori, original, basis (or Anlage) for all mental life; but in the species all powers have developed in reciprocity with external conditions." And human thought is a variation (or a mutation) which has been able to persist and to survive eliminating automatically, instinctively any mental processes determined to be of no value.

Sorry you have erected a strawman in place of constructive scriptural dialog.

Give me incidences of the "blind will" found in Scripture and I'll continue to pursue this with you. Perhaps your definition is a subjective one and not one linked to the philosophies of unbelievers?

You are welcome to address the content in my posts and the critique applied to your constructs. Outside of that yer wasting our time.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Destructus86]

Of course there's a free will. The bible points to it very clearly.

Or just look at it this way...if everything was predestined...then there would have been no need for the Word of God to continually tell people to repent, turn from their ways and accept Jesus. Why bother telling us if the decision has already been made?

 

[glorydaz]

If the devil, satan, is connected to 'all sin' which the devil is according to 1 John 3:8 then the implications of that would imply a very certain amount of power. Again, you are welcome to overlook and brush off the facts of these matters and attempt to diminish them. There is a reason 'you are led' to do that.

Many believers think that if they ignore those particular facts for themselves the facts go away.

Yes, I'm led by God's spirit not satan's.

As believers, we should not be giving credit to satan for power he doesn't have. He is an adversary who lies... claiming more power than God has given him, and we only play into the adversary's hands when we claim he can blind all men so much that the Light of the Gospel can't shine through. We, of all people, should know better, for there is but ONE GOD.

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Jesus came, and by His death, destroyed satan's power to keep men in spiritual darkness. First, God gave men a conscience, then He gave them the Light of the Gospel. So those who claim satan's power to blind is greater than God's power to draw men to the light is giving satan more power than he really has.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Take a look at your own pretzel logic in this matter. You just finished saying the devil doesn't have to mess with unbelievers and then acknowledge that he blinds unbelievers.

Rude though you are, I will respond by saying you didn't read what I wrote. The god of this world provides occasions for our flesh. Man gets taken up with the things of the flesh. Satan gets credited with the weakness of our flesh, all conflicts, and all discords that arise from man's owns lusts and greed. If you want to do that, go right ahead, but that only provides an excuse for all of man's misbehaviors. Satan shouldn't get credit for what man's own fleshly desires cause. We don't listen to our God-given conscience, and satan gets the credit. That only gives man an excuse, which God says we don't have.

Sin is a progression from thought to word to deed. The operation starts with internal lusts of various forms and those lusts are inserted by the devil, promoting men to sin and slavery.

There you go again....crediting the devil with our own internal lusts. We see here we have the ability to sin in our members...that's our flesh. The battle is with the world the flesh and the devil, and you want to give the devil credit for everything.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Well, you are getting quite ridiculous now. Jesus showed us that devils were IN MAN and cast out THOUSANDS of them from WITHIN man.

Obviously something 'in you' doesn't seem to be taking the information too well. Sorry. Can't help you reconcile facts. God also has reasons for not letting believers hear as well.

Now you're going past rude. Christ is IN me and satan can never reside in a child of God. In case you haven't heard, we need only resist and satan flees. Instead of making him a god with a capital "G", you should resist his fiery arrows which seem to be affecting your attitude.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course there's a free will. The bible points to it very clearly.

Or just look at it this way...if everything was predestined...then there would have been no need for the Word of God to continually tell people to repent, turn from their ways and accept Jesus. Why bother telling us if the decision has already been made?

Amen...simple and to the point.

 

[Jam]

Of course there's a free will. The bible points to it very clearly.

The Bible mentions choice and will a lot of the time, but never free will. Free will as commonly defined is a logical impossibility, as I have explained in previous posts. 2 or 3 pages back if you want to read, I think.

if everything was predestined...then there would have been no need for the Word of God to continually tell people to repent, turn from their ways and accept Jesus. Why bother telling us if the decision has already been made?

God created everything, and He knows everything. Because of this, predestination is not so much merely plausible, but necessary. By accepting free will, you are rejecting God's omniscience and His status as Creator. By implying that God "needs" anything, you are rejecting His omnipotence.

Why tell us? Because that was part of God's predestined plan. Why this plan? I don't know. That doesn't make it false or illegitimate: I don't know why Jack the Ripper would have killed and raped prostitues, but that doesn't mean that he didn't kill and rape prostitutes.

Also, here's something that you should keep in mind: the existence of choice does not imply the existence of free will.

 

[childeye]

childeye while some debate what happens to animals when they die(some say they go to heaven others as i believe back to nothing) they dont have a ruach. meaning an animal does have a nephesh but a ruach is a spirit and animals can discern right from wrong they arent born with sin nature and curse.

when they kill and eath their young its by desinged programming that do so

and simple common pets and livestock that kill and eat their young

cats, pigs. a sow will eat the piglets if they arent touched by human hands first.

Thanks Jasoncran but I don't know what a ruach is. I know animals have spirit for they are animated. I also know animals aren't born with a sin nature since they aren't born of Adam. I trust you have read the back and forth here. I am saying animals know God.

 

[childeye]

Of course there's a free will. The bible points to it very clearly.

Or just look at it this way...if everything was predestined...then there would have been no need for the Word of God to continually tell people to repent, turn from their ways and accept Jesus. Why bother telling us if the decision has already been made?

So where does the bible point to it? Also, how is it that since the bible and men of God are shouting "turn around your heart and mind" you seem to equate that these men who need to repent have freewills? Couldn't it simply mean you're going the wrong way? I mean look at the poor, blessed are the poor. Are we seeing him hungry and not feeding him and seeing him naked and not clothing him? Or like pharisees are we treating sin like it's all about a clean exterior rather than interior.

 

[childeye]

Outside of that yer wasting our time.

You misspelled yer, it's spelled yurrrrrrr. Zolid prrof of falze teachink.

 

[jasoncran]

Thanks Jasoncran but I don't know what a ruach is. I know animals have spirit for they are animated. I also know animals aren't born with a sin nature since they aren't born of Adam. I trust you have read the back and forth here. I am saying animals know God.

a ruach in part is that part that goes back to the lord when we die it has our inteleect and or real nature whether saved or unsaved and is placed in a body when we are to raised in either heaven or hell.

 

[childeye]

a ruach in part is that part that goes back to the lord when we die it has our inteleect and or real nature whether saved or unsaved and is placed in a body when we are to raised in either heaven or hell.

That sounds like a soul with an individual spirit, a person. Thanks for the info.

 

[Stormcrow]

"...we cannot make any decision totally devoid of influence; no."

Nobody's arguing otherwise. All our choices are influenced by something or someone.

So we at least still agree that our will is not free in that we cannot do whatever we like:

Again, nobody's arguing you can. I can choose to jump off a building. I cannot choose to grow wings and fly. Your argument is a strawman.

it is limited by influences such as our environment and our inborn characteristics.

Limited does not mean non-existent.

And our selves - the "us" that make the choices/decisions - is a result of this environment and these characteristics.

Nevertheless, it is still the "us" that makes the choice, sometimes in favor of a given influence, sometimes against. God would not be just to hold us accountable for decisions we did not have the power to make.

Your argument suggests we respond reflexively to influence having no say in the matter, the way certain flatworms respond to light by shrinking from it.

It's the same argument you've made before and it's called "biological determinism." It's the same argument people use to suggest we're no better than animals, which react to external influence both instinctively and reflexively. Such a view debases human beings who God created in His image and likeness, and whom Jesus Christ died to save.

{9} But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9 (NASB)

Is everyone saved despite the fact Jesus died for all? Nope. Why? Because some reject His salvation: they CHOOSE not to receive it. That is a choice only a human can make.


If biological determinism is what you believe in: fine. Just be intellectually honest about it instead of dressing your arguments in strawmen. Halloween is over.

 

[Stormcrow]

{9} "The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. Deuteronomy 28:9 (NASB)

{10} "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10 (NASB)

Moses didn't write, "You will keep the commandments of the Lord."


Jesus didn't say, "You will keep my commandments."


The operative word here is "IF", a conditional conjunction that both implies and confers a choice on the reader.


Only a being with the freedom of will to make such a choice is given such a choice.


For what it's worth.