Three person God identified in the Bible?

[justbyfaith]

False. Lying about your stonewalling against my questions will not hide it.

You asked,

Is the Father the Son? Yes or No?

• Is the Son the Father? Yes or No?

I responded,

The Father does not exist in a body of human flesh and so is not the Son.

The Son is the same Spirit as the Father and in that sense He is the Father.

What is so hard about that for you to comprehend?

 

[justbyfaith]

But the Father is the one on His throne in Daniel 7 with white hair on His "Head" not just a formless Spirit. I agree Jesus is NOT the Father.

He is "the Father come in human flesh".

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

 

[BB1956]

The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be formed by taking one verse at a time. There are many verses in this thread that have been left unaddressed and unaccounted for by the anti-trinitarians. Of course, most of them are Oneness, which at least acknowledges the deity of Christ. But, groups that deny the deity of Christ, ignore verses, or, in the case of JWs, add words into the text which aren't in the Greek in order to change the meaning of what is being said.

Anyway, it's all here in this thread. I've shown these things numerous times.

The scriptures you get upset about being different have been debated upon for centuries how they should be translated.

 

[Free]

The scriptures you get upset about being different have been debated upon for centuries how they should be translated.

Which verses are those? Who is debating them and what are the issues?

 

[Free]

View attachment 15176
"JESUS IS THE FATHER COME IN HUMAN FLESH" GOD IS ONE

God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

Jesus is the only Saviour
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12

The Lord was the creator
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

Jesus was the creator
By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

God forgives sins.
"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Jesus forgives sins.
And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." (Luke 7:48)

God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.
Titus 2:13-14

The Trinity diagram states the Father was not the Son. Father and Son are One. Jesus is God with us made visible. Heretics abounded.
.

The diagram is based on what the God reveals of himself in the Bible and is 100% correct. No verse you have given states otherwise.

 

[Free]

My apologies, wondering. Based on the thread title, I thought we were discussing the Bible. It never dawned on me that we were talking about man-made religion. This is why I was dismissive of Constantine and the diagrams people draw. This must be why 'justbyfaith' is having such a hard time. I thought I was on a Christian forum. That was my mistake. For future reference, my faith is based on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
.

We are discussing the Bible, not man-made religion. This is a Christian forum.

1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

Any further violations of the ToS and you will be removed from this discussion.

 

[BB1956]

As a "Trinitarian of a different sort", I can show you that Jesus is God very easily.

In 1 Corinthians 8:6, we find that there is one Lord Jesus Christ; in Ephesians 4:5 that there is one Lord.

In Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, we find that the Father is the Lord.

So, since Jesus is also the Lord, that is two Lords, except the Father and Jesus be the same Lord; which we conclude to be the case since there is one Lord.

If they are the same Lord then they are the same Person.

Thus, Jesus is God, even the Father.

Nope, doesn't show anything except that like many others you ignore the scriptures that Jesus says he has a Father and God that is his disciples Father and God.(John 17:3; John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3) Even after Jesus went back into heaven Jesus says he has a God.(Revelation 3:12)
People can say that Jesus is God, but the scriptures don't say that. What many people do is interpret a scripture to mean exactly the opposite that God inspired a man to write down. I'm not going to agree with that.

 

[Randy]

He is "the Father come in human flesh".

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

The Son of Man who comes into the presence of the Ancient of Days on "His" throne. As shown in Daniel 7. Jesus is the Son of Man. The Father is the ancient of Days. John is not writing about Daniel 7. His witness is of the Only begotten Son who was in the Fathers presence in the beginning and came down from heaven in flesh as the only such eye witness. The one from above speaks of what He saw and heard as one from above.

 

[Randy]

"the only true God" refers to someone who is the only one who is the only true God (even the Father).

However, the Greek word for "and" in John 17:3 is "kai", which can be translated "even".

So, John 17:3 can be rendered,

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, <even> Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

But that's not the translation given.

John 17:3 Greek Text Analysis

biblehub.com

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I think the Father alone is the one Jesus stated as in "you".

Obviously Jesus is referring to/addressing the Father in John 17:3. But He is not saying that the Father is the only person Who is the only true God. You're trying to impose your extra-Biblical assumption of unitarianism onto the text.

 

[Randy]

If, when Jesus says, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins," (John 8:24), He is referring to the Father;

Then yes, those who do not believe that Jesus is "the Father come in human flesh" are lost.

I don't believe Jesus is the Father.
Your message differs from Jesus's prayer. I believe Jesus came from or was sent by the Father and He gave us the Fathers words. As in God in these last days has spoken to us by His Son. None of the words states He is the Father or the time traveling Son who began as the Father's Spirit.
John 17
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours

 

[Paul E. Michael]

• Is the Father the Son? Yes or No?

justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

• Is the Son the Father? Yes or No?

justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

I responded

without answering either of those Yes or No questions.

 

[Randy]

Obviously Jesus is referring to/addressing the Father in John 17:3. But He is not saying that the Father is the only person Who is the only true God. You're trying to impose your extra-Biblical assumption of unitarianism onto the text.

I'm not adding anything to the text. Including stating Jesus is begotten.
He is stating the Father and in that regard "you" As in the only unbegotten God or only true God. Jesus is the only begotten God or the only like to like begotten Son. God and Gods Son.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 1:18 King James Version 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I'm not adding anything to the text.

When you say that Jesus is saying that ONLY the Father is the only true God, you are adding your unitarian assumption to the text.

 

[BB1956]

Which verses are those? Who is debating them and what are the issues?

One well known verse is John1:1. Coldwell said regarding the translation of John 1:1 is that, "the absence of the article does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb, it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it."
So whether the predicate(theos) is definite, indefinite, or qualitative depends on the context. Consequently, this raises the concern that uncertainty with respect to the grammer may result translations based on the theology of the translator. The commonly held theology that Jesus is God naturally leads to a corresponding translation. But theology in which Jesus is subordinate to God leads to the conclusion that he is a god or divine is the proper rendering.

This is why we have translations that differ on John 1:1 from those translation that believe Jesus to be God, like, The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text 1808: "and the word was a god."

The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading by Benjamin Wilson
1864: "and a god was the word."

La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel
1928: "and the Word was a divine being."

The Bible An American Translation, by J.M.P. Smith and E.J. Goodspeed 1935: "and the Word was divine."

Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme
1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word."

And these were just a few translations that show for centuries John1:1 has been debated upon, about how it should be translated.

 

[Randy]

When you say that Jesus is saying that ONLY the Father is the only true God, you are adding your unitarian assumption to the text.

That's what I read.
I also read Jesus is the only begotten God or begotten Son who was with the Father in the beginning. The word of life, the eternal life with the Father from the beginning. The life appeared....

The only begotten God
Col 1:19

The eternal life found in Jesus is the Father.

He never dies likewise those in Him never die. People live in the flesh who are not in Christ. He's not talking about that.
John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Oneness 101 by the teacher-that they may be one as we are one
John 17
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 18
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

There is a reason Jesus has a God and Father - "truth"

 

[Cooper]

We are discussing the Bible, not man-made religion. This is a Christian forum.

1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

Any further violations of the ToS and you will be removed from this discussion.

Not done any of that.
.

 

[BB1956]

As a "Trinitarian of a different sort", I can show you that Jesus is God very easily.

In 1 Corinthians 8:6, we find that there is one Lord Jesus Christ; in Ephesians 4:5 that there is one Lord.

In Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, we find that the Father is the Lord.

So, since Jesus is also the Lord, that is two Lords, except the Father and Jesus be the same Lord; which we conclude to be the case since there is one Lord.

If they are the same Lord then they are the same Person.

Thus, Jesus is God, even the Father.

Nope 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." At John 20:17 Jesus says he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. So Paul here at 1 Corinthians 8:6 isn't contradicting Jesus. Plus you have to remember that the word lord has to be taken into context. Sarah called her husband Abraham lord, that doesn't make Abraham God. Paul said at 1 Corinthians 15: 27 that God has subjected all things under the feet of Jesus. The only person no subject to Jesus is God the person who made all things subject to Jesus, but Jesus is subject to God.1 Corinthians 15:28 So YHWH(Jehovah/Yaweh) is Jesus Lord.

If you reason from the scriptures Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; 2 Corinthians 6:17-18 that Jesus is God because both the Father and Jesus are called lord I'm definitely disagreeing with you. Jesus is called lord of lords because there have been those on earth called lords but that didn't make them God. All those lords are subject to Jesus and he is their lord even though those men were called lords. Also Jesus was praying at Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, so was Jesus praying to himself?
At 2 Corinthians 6:17,18 the only reason the word lord is in your Bible is because like so many translations have left the personal name YHWH(Jehovah/Yahweh) out of scripture, yours has too. In my Bible at 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18 the word lord isn't there two times as it is in your Bible, my Bible has God's personal name YHWH(Jehovah/Yahweh) there two times.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Trinity or Godhead, as described in the Bible, the Christians Creed.

Here is a quick summary:
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:8-10

a. In Jesus (God's name on earth) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. He is Father, Son and Spirit. This is a dramatic, airtight declaration of the full Deity of Jesus. Since all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus, He cannot be a halfway God or a junior god.

b. All the fullness of the Godhead bodily: The false teaching among the Colossian Christians meant Paul needed to make it clear that all the fullness of the Godhead was in Jesus bodily, not in some strange, mystical sense. John also dealt with this false teaching in 1Jn_4:2-3 and other passages.

c. And you are complete in Him: This can only be true because Jesus is truly God. If He were not God, we couldn’t be complete in Him.

d. Head of all principality and power: Paul here declares Jesus’ authority over all spirit beings and makes it clear that Jesus is far above them.

Matthew 1:23-“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

David Guzik (Summarised)
.

The above is all very true, but doesn't really address the Trinity in its entirety, but shows snippets of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

My apologies, wondering. Based on the thread title, I thought we were discussing the Bible. It never dawned on me that we were talking about man-made religion. This is why I was dismissive of Constantine and the diagrams people draw. This must be why 'justbyfaith' is having such a hard time. I thought I was on a Christian forum. That was my mistake. For future reference, my faith is based on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
.

The above is very sarcastic of you and has no place in a thread in a very serious forum, which is Apologetics.
Apologetics attempts to show why anyone's theology is correct or incorrect....
how does the above prove either of the two?

Everything Christian is based on the bible.
Nothing I can think of at this moment relies on any other source, even doctrine I don't even agree with.

If you mean that creeds are man-made religions, then you're sorely missing what it is, exactly, that makes us Christian.

JW believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Are they Christian?

Some Christians believe Jesus is not God.
Are they correctly referred to as Christians?

Then what exactly must we believe to be considered Christian?

The doctrine of the Trinity was decided on many years ago.
All we have to do is understand it AND NOT CHANGE IT.
Some on this thread are either:

1. Trying to change it.
2. Not understanding it.
3. They don't WANT to understand it because they are not Christian in theology.