Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Paul E. Michael]

If they are the same Lord then they are the same Person.

False. They are one Lord, but two Persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

False. They are one Lord, but two Persons.

Oh my.
Now we're going to start with the word Lord.

When referring to the Father (maybe you're not),
can we at least capitalize the word to LORD?

LORD is God Father
Lord is Jesus the Son on earth

(this could get so confusing!)

 

[GodsGrace]

Some of the creeds deny what is written in scripture. So, I guess that they are not truly creeds?

A creed cannot deny scripture.
If you can find one that does, let us know.

No.

No is responding to whether you can forget scripture for a while and just try to understand the Trinity.
Scripture has, of course, everything to do with it, but some verses are rather confusing.
Your answer is No. I guess that means you don't really care to understand the Trinity, but just want to continue
debating it.

This is your prerogative.

FYI, I have an I.Q. of exactly 180. So, if it is a matter of intelligence, I am going to be able to do this.

I didn't say that you wouldn't be able to understand the Trinity just from scripture due to your intelligence level,
It's just really difficult to do because the persons that protected the doctrine of Jesus being God took years to do this and many different heresies had to be fought.

However, it is not a matter of intelligence; it is a matter of listening to the Holy Spirit and believing what He tells you.

I agree with this.
It IS a matter of spiritual understanding.

You just denied what is written in one of the creeds; which says that Jesus is uncreated.

But I know that you were siding with scripture in that instance. :wink

Well, you only used the part of my comment that suited you.
:wink

 

[Cooper]

The above is very sarcastic of you and has no place in a thread in a very serious forum, which is Apologetics.
Apologetics attempts to show why anyone's theology is correct or incorrect....
how does the above prove either of the two?

Everything Christian is based on the bible.
Nothing I can think of at this moment relies on any other source, even doctrine I don't even agree with.

If you mean that creeds are man-made religions, then you're sorely missing what it is, exactly, that makes us Christian.

JW believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Are they Christian?

Some Christians believe Jesus is not God.
Are they correctly referred to as Christians?

Then what exactly must we believe to be considered Christian?

The doctrine of the Trinity was decided on many years ago.
All we have to do is understand it AND NOT CHANGE IT.
Some on this thread are either:

1. Trying to change it.
2. Not understanding it.
3. They don't WANT to understand it because they are not Christian in theology.

I was only explaining how I felt and why. The various religions are an example of what happens. Well anyway, I was not intending to upset you. I always think it is best to explain any differences and clear the air, rather than bottle them up. Anyway, I am sorry, but now I feel I cannot say my two pennyworth anymore.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was only explaining how I felt and why. The various religions are an example of what can happen. Well anyway, I was not intending to upset you. I always think it is best to explain any differences and clear the air, rather than bottle them up. Anyway, I am sorry, but now I feel I cannot say my two pennyworth anymore.
.

You can say your two pennies worth all you want to.
We here do not like to censor what persons believe to be true.
Just keep in mind that this is not the Lounge or one of the autonomous zone forums.

I say anything I wish to say.
I just say it civilly and with respect.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was only explaining how I felt and why. The various religions are an example of what happens. Well anyway, I was not intending to upset you. I always think it is best to explain any differences and clear the air, rather than bottle them up. Anyway, I am sorry, but now I feel I cannot say my two pennyworth anymore.
.

Have you given any real thought to how it might be difficult to use only scripture for the doctrine of the Trinity?
Maybe we also need to use the thinking of some of the early church theologians that put the doctrine together?

 

[Cooper]

Have you given any real thought to how it might be difficult to use only scripture for the doctrine of the Trinity?
Maybe we also need to use the thinking of some of the early church theologians that put the doctrine together?

The similarities between Father and Son are remarkable, and there are many more examples than I give here. We could almost think they are the same, literally One, and this is what I am beginning to think, which is that Jesus is literally the Father in the flesh. "God with us."

God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
~~~~~~~~~~~

God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

Jesus is the only Saviour
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12
~~~~~~~~~~

The Lord was the creator
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

Jesus was the creator
By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
~~~~~~~~~~

God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
~~~~~~~~~~

God forgives sins.
"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Jesus forgives sins.
And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." (Luke 7:48)
~~~~~~~~~~

God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.
Titus 2:13-14

etc, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

The similarities between Father and Son are remarkable, and there are many more examples than I give here. We could almost think they are the same, literally One, and this is what I am beginning to think, which is that Jesus is literally the Father in the flesh. "God with us."

I'm going to try and go through each verse below.
See what you think.
(this is why it's important to understand that EACH PERSON is separate, otherwise we start thinking (from scripture) that Jesus the Son is the Father...and He is not. He is GOD, but the Word/Logos, not the Father.

Maybe we should start saying Word/Logos and stop saying Son...that might help.

God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In the OT LORD in caps means God Father, the Almighty, Creator of the universe,
the one and only God. Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR O ISRAEL,,,THE LORD IS ONE.

Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

Jesus was both God and our Savior.
Even in the OT God Father declared that HE would be the savior.
But as the Word/Logos/Son, not as the Father.
It is still God.
There's only One God.
(Different Persons)

~~~~~~~~~~~

God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

Exactly. There are more verse but I won't post them since we know what we're talking about.
God Himself will shepher His sheep, God Himself will save mankind.
As the Son, Word, Logos.
God Father never left heaven,
The Son, Word, Logos, did leave heaven.

Jesus is the only Saviour
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12
~~~~~~~~~~

He shall be called Immanuel....God with us.
Jesus IS God with us.
The Son, Word, Logos, that came to earth as a sacrifice to save us.

The Lord was the creator
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

LORD is in caps...referring to God Almighty, God Creator, Father, the One and Only God.
The being that made everything.

Jesus was the creator
By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

All was made by THE WORD, and was nothing made without the Word.
God SPOKE everything into creation.
Jesus is the WORD OF GOD.

~~~~~~~~~~

God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

No comment.
Agreed.

Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

Because Jesus IS GOD.
He is NOT not God.
There is only One God.

~~~~~~~~~~

God forgives sins.
"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7

Same as above.

Jesus forgives sins.
And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." (Luke 7:48)

Same as above.

~~~~~~~~~~

God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Same as God Father is our Savior....
but in the Person of Jesus, Son, Word, Logos.

Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.
Titus 2:13-14

etc, etc.

Jesus is God.
I know there are many more.
I think it has to be understood from a different point of view.

My entire understanding came from
John 1:1 (once it really sunk in).

 

[justbyfaith]

The diagram is based on what the God reveals of himself in the Bible and is 100% correct. No verse you have given states otherwise.

The diagram is based on the mormon concept of deity, period.

But that's not the translation given.

John 17:3 Greek Text Analysis

That link shows that the Greek word for "and" is indeed "kai"

Obviously Jesus is referring to/addressing the Father in John 17:3. But He is not saying that the Father is the only person Who is the only true God. You're trying to impose your extra-Biblical assumption of unitarianism onto the text.

I think that you must be blind as a bat. "only" means "only".

without answering either of those Yes or No questions.

I answered both of those questions. Are you deliberately being obtuse?

But theology in which Jesus is subordinate to God leads to the conclusion that he is a god or divine is the proper rendering.

Is Jesus a true god or a false god?

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Plus you have to remember that the word lord has to be taken into context. Sarah called her husband Abraham lord, that doesn't make Abraham God.

There are many lords according to 1 Corinthians 8:5, small "l". There is one Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6, capital "L". I would contend that capitalization makes a difference to the text and that the scriptures do not make sense without it. We do not have many "L"ords; and we do not have one "l"ord.

So, when it says that there is one Lord Jesus Christ, it is referring to "Lord" with a capital "L" and it is saying that Jesus is the only Lord. However, the Father is also the Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

At 2 Corinthians 6:17,18 the only reason the word lord is in your Bible is because like so many translations have left the personal name YHWH(Jehovah/Yahweh) out of scripture, yours has too. In my Bible at 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18 the word lord isn't there two times as it is in your Bible, my Bible has God's personal name YHWH(Jehovah/Yahweh) there two times.

Okay...you still have to deal with the other two verses.

False. They are one Lord, but two Persons.

That would indicate two Persons who are Lord. I can agree with that; for the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh and Jesus is the same Spirit come in flesh.

However, in that they are the same Spirit, they are the same Lord.

And also, a "Lord" by definition, is a singular Person.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm going to try and go through each verse below.
See what you think.
(this is why it's important to understand that EACH PERSON is separate, otherwise we start thinking (from scripture) that Jesus the Son is the Father...and He is not. He is GOD, but the Word/Logos, not the Father.

Maybe we should start saying Word/Logos and stop saying Son...that might help.


In the OT LORD in caps means God Father, the Almighty, Creator of the universe,
the one and only God. Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR O ISRAEL,,,THE LORD IS ONE.


Jesus was both God and our Savior.
Even in the OT God Father declared that HE would be the savior.
But as the Word/Logos/Son, not as the Father.
It is still God.
There's only One God.
(Different Persons)



Exactly. There are more verse but I won't post them since we know what we're talking about.
God Himself will shepher His sheep, God Himself will save mankind.
As the Son, Word, Logos.
God Father never left heaven,
The Son, Word, Logos, did leave heaven.



He shall be called Immanuel....God with us.
Jesus IS God with us.
The Son, Word, Logos, that came to earth as a sacrifice to save us.



LORD is in caps...referring to God Almighty, God Creator, Father, the One and Only God.
The being that made everything.



All was made by THE WORD, and was nothing made without the Word.
God SPOKE everything into creation.
Jesus is the WORD OF GOD.



No comment.
Agreed.



Because Jesus IS GOD.
He is NOT not God.
There is only One God.


Same as above.



Same as above.



Same as God Father is our Savior....
but in the Person of Jesus, Son, Word, Logos.


Jesus is God.
I know there are many more.
I think it has to be understood from a different point of view.

My entire understanding came from
John 1:1 (once it really sunk in).

I think that anyone who hasn't been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins must be what the Bible calls "the natural man".

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that anyone who hasn't been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins must be what the Bible calls "the natural man".

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There's some message hidden in there that I don't see.
The natural man, to my understanding, is anyone that does not know God.

You might mean me, or you might mean another member, but I don't agree.
Anyone that knows GOD, even if another religion, will have the spirit of God known to them.
(if they truly follow God and not just their religion).

 

[justbyfaith]

There's some message hidden in there that I don't see.
The natural man, to my understanding, is anyone that does not know God.

You might mean me, or you might mean another member, but I don't agree.
Anyone that knows GOD, even if another religion, will have the spirit of God known to them.
(if they truly follow God and not just their religion).

The "natural man" is anyone who does not have the Holy Ghost; who is promised as the result of repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins.

 

[Cooper]

I'm going to try and go through each verse below.
See what you think.
(this is why it's important to understand that EACH PERSON is separate, otherwise we start thinking (from scripture) that Jesus the Son is the Father...and He is not. He is GOD, but the Word/Logos, not the Father.

Maybe we should start saying Word/Logos and stop saying Son...that might help.


In the OT LORD in caps means God Father, the Almighty, Creator of the universe,
the one and only God. Deuteronomy 6:4 HEAR O ISRAEL,,,THE LORD IS ONE.


Jesus was both God and our Savior.
Even in the OT God Father declared that HE would be the savior.
But as the Word/Logos/Son, not as the Father.
It is still God.
There's only One God.
(Different Persons)



Exactly. There are more verse but I won't post them since we know what we're talking about.
God Himself will shepher His sheep, God Himself will save mankind.
As the Son, Word, Logos.
God Father never left heaven,
The Son, Word, Logos, did leave heaven.



He shall be called Immanuel....God with us.
Jesus IS God with us.
The Son, Word, Logos, that came to earth as a sacrifice to save us.



LORD is in caps...referring to God Almighty, God Creator, Father, the One and Only God.
The being that made everything.



All was made by THE WORD, and was nothing made without the Word.
God SPOKE everything into creation.
Jesus is the WORD OF GOD.



No comment.
Agreed.



Because Jesus IS GOD.
He is NOT not God.
There is only One God.


Same as above.



Same as above.



Same as God Father is our Savior....
but in the Person of Jesus, Son, Word, Logos.


Jesus is God.
I know there are many more.
I think it has to be understood from a different point of view.

My entire understanding came from
John 1:1 (once it really sunk in).

I have been studying this since I went on line twenty-three years ago in 2000.

Things to know:
In Judaism God is given a proper name to emphasise the personal nature of God. The tetragrammaton (written YHWH) was originally the name of an Edomite or Midianite deity called Yahweh. When the word "LORD" is in all capitals it signifies that the word represents the tetragrammaton Yahweh. Yahweh or “LORD” in this case is a false deity.

The JW's do not know what they worship.

Yahweh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

~~~~~~~~~~

1Ch 29:20-21
20 David then said to the people, "Now it's your turn to praise the LORD, the God your ancestors worshiped!" So everyone praised the LORD, and they bowed down to honor him and David their king.
21 The next day, the Israelites slaughtered a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, and they offered them as sacrifices to please the LORD, along with offerings of wine.

Pagan worship.

~~~~~~~~~

Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it
Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD."
Exo 32:6 And they rose up early on the next morning, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
Exo 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go! Get you down, for your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.

Yahweh is LORD and the Golden Calf is LORD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now we come to the true Lord or God.
Jesus is “Yeshua” Lord.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

JESUS IS GOD
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have been studying this since I went on line twenty-three years ago in 2000.

Things to know:
In Judaism God is given a proper name to emphasise the personal nature of God. The tetragrammaton (written YHWH) was originally the name of an Edomite or Midianite deity called Yahweh. When the word "LORD" is in all capitals signifies that the word represents the tetragrammaton Yahweh. Yahweh or “LORD” in this case is a false deity.

The JW's do not know what they worship.

~~~~~~~~~~

1Ch 29:20-21
20 David then said to the people, "Now it's your turn to praise the LORD, the God your ancestors worshiped!" So everyone praised the LORD, and they bowed down to honor him and David their king.
21 The next day, the Israelites slaughtered a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, and they offered them as sacrifices to please the LORD, along with offerings of wine.

Pagan worship.

~~~~~~~~~

Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it
Exo 32:5 And when Aaron saw the calf, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the LORD."
Exo 32:6 And they rose up early on the next morning, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
Exo 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go! Get you down, for your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.

Yahweh is LORD and the Golden Calf is LORD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now we come to the true Lord or God.
Jesus is “Yeshua” Lord.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

JESUS IS GOD
.

Tomorrow Cooper.
I've only been online 8 years.
But studying for 40....
But I'm only 38.

 

[Cooper]

Tomorrow Cooper.
I've only been online 8 years.
But studying for 40....
But I'm only 38.

Nearly 80 years old. My Father was a church pastor, I accepted Christ as my saviour age ten, and was baptised in water, full immersion about two years later. Been studying on and off all that time.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nearly 80 years old. My Father was a church pastor, I accepted Christ as my saviour age ten, and was baptised in water, full immersion about two years later. Been studying on and off all that time.
.

I know.
It's all in how we understand it.
'night.

 

[Randy]

That link shows that the Greek word for "and" is indeed "kai"

Based on other usage I assume that's why the translation states "And"

Greek Concordance: καὶ (kai) -- 9079 Occurrences

 

[Randy]

When you say that Jesus is saying that ONLY the Father is the only true God, you are adding your unitarian assumption to the text.

I stated what I read.

John 17:3 Interlinear: and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

 

[Paul E. Michael]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

I think that you must be blind as a bat. "only" means "only".

How many times does Jesus say "only" in John 17:3? By my count, it's one time, and no more.

Which one of these two things does Jesus say in referring to/addressing His Father, and which one of them does He not say?

1. "Thee the only true God"
2. "Thee the only person who is the only true God"

I've already asked you this question several times, and so far, you've refused to answer it. Why is that?

---

• Is the Father the Son? Yes or No?

justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

• Is the Son the Father? Yes or No?

justbyfaith: <NO ANSWER, STILL>

I answered both of those questions.

False. You've answered neither of them. What you've done instead of answering those questions is to try to hand me more of your word salad while telling me falsely that you've thereby answered them. Until you have said to me simply either "Yes [the Father is the Son]," or "No [the Father is not the Son]," and either "Yes [the Son is the Father]," or "No [the Son is not the Father]," you will continue in your present failure to have answered those questions.

---

And also, a "Lord" by definition, is a singular Person.

By your word, "definition", you are referring to your extra-Biblical assumption/imposition of unitarianism.

You ignored my statement of the truth that:

The Bible, of course, assigns no lower nor upper limit to the number of persons a god can be.

Because, as you and I both know, you have no answer against it. And now, you'll do the same regarding my statement of the truth that the Bible assigns no lower nor upper limit to the number of persons a lord can be.

 

[Randy]

There's some message hidden in there that I don't see.
The natural man, to my understanding, is anyone that does not know God.

You might mean me, or you might mean another member, but I don't agree.
Anyone that knows GOD, even if another religion, will have the spirit of God known to them.
(if they truly follow God and not just their religion).

See message 2138. According to Justbyfaith we who don't believe "the Father" came in flesh are lost.

Well I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I don't believe Jesus was the Fathers Spirit in the beginning that became flesh.


According to Jesus those that "belong" to God hear what God states. He told those that didn't believe in Him was because they did not belong to God.

Now those who do listen to and learn from the Father go to Jesus.