BPPLEE
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I agree
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
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BPPLEE
Member
Why are you posting this to me?
BPPLEE
Member
Because you said “He is the Son, which means he is also God, just as the Father is but he is not the Father.” The symbol confirms what you said.
I agree with you entirely that Jesus is the Creator.
But in my opinion after years of studying the Bible, I believe that Jesus IS the Father in the flesh based on all those Scriptures I posted. Specifically Isaiah 9:6 that declares that Jesus IS The Everlasting Father and The Almighty God.
When you study the OT for years (not saying you haven't) and see over and over the references to God being ONE, God being ONE, over and over again, then you consider Isaiah 9:6 and all the other verses that I posted there, as well as many that I didn't from other books, there is only one conclusion that makes sense.
And when you see Revelation speaking of God returning for the Lord's Day Wrath of God to destroy all evil and He has a sash that reads "King of Kings and Lord of Lords", there is only one conclusion that one can come to.
With all due respect, after years of pouring over the Scriptures seeking TRUTH - not proof of any pre-existing assumptions - but TRUTH, I can't see it any other way anymore. The Bible makes a rock-solid case that God is ONE individual person and it tracks perfectly from Genesis to Revelation.
It was the Father who humbled Himself and came into a flesh body to sacrifice Himself for all mankind. Jesus IS the Father. There is no trinity whatsoever and there is literally zero teaching of such a concept found anywhere in the Bible. I have been searching, and also discussing/debating, for over a decade and never once found that teaching and never once had it presented by any of its proponents.
It just is not a Biblical concept at all.
Yes and what makes it even more sad is that it is taught nowhere in the Bible.
How will these poor people ever find it and learn about it in the Scriptures?
It's a travesty.
Yes, God is one. That neither proves nor disproves the Trinity. They are statements of monotheism only, which is one of the foundations of the Trinity.
And what is that?
And, yet, there is not one single verse that says God "is ONE individual person." Not one. I, too, have spent years studying the Bible seeking truth and have come to the conclusion that the Trinity best takes into account all that the Bible says.
No, Jesus is the Son; the Son of God and God the Son. No father is ever his own son or a son his own father. That is to speak nonsense about God. It was Jesus who humbled himself, as the Son.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brothers, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
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1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love.
(All ESV.)
There is simply no way one can read these verses and conclude that it was the Father who cam to die and that Jesus is the Father. One would have to throw out all rules of language, grammar, and logic, in which case they have ignored God himself. It is absolutely clear that it was the Son, who humbled himself, and that the Father sent the Son. It is also absolutely clear that Jesus is not the Father, that they are two distinct persons.
The teachings of the foundations are everywhere and that is precisely why the doctrine has endured for so long; it is why the early church taught the foundations. That you have been debating and discussing it for so long is not relevant, especially since I've probably been debating and discussing it far longer than you.
You haven't shown this to be the case. Not even close. Modalism was rightly condemned as heresy a long time ago because it is found nowhere in the Bible. It is the doctrine of the Trinity that best takes into account all that the Bible says about God.
It is telling that you have left most of my arguments--all the strongest ones--untouched.
He is the only begotten Son of the Father, who became flesh.
Let’s look at the Son in the Old Testament, before He became flesh.
Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”
They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:24-25
Jesus plainly stated that He is I AM, the God of Abraham; the Lord God of the Old Testament, and was nearly stoned to death for saying it.
IOW He is the Son of God (God the Son) who became flesh. (Not the Father who became flesh)
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-59
It is the Son, the Angel of the Lord, who is I AM.
Notice the progression of understanding in these passages...from the Angel of the LORD, to the LORD, and then to God.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:1-6, 14
Do you see the Angel of the Lord, who is the Son of God, is also the LORD (YHWH) as well as GOD?
The Son of God, (The WORD) became flesh.
JLB
atpollard
Member
… which you will then promptly reject.
Yes, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, was born in human flesh.
We need to remember there is only one God.
How many people are there here?
Head of State,
Chief Executive,
Commander in Chief,
Head of Government,
Chief Diplomat,
Manager of the Economy
Ceremonial Head of State.
Give me your answer (everyone) and I will tell you if you are right.
.
You're right. There isn't one. There are too many to even put a number on.
I have posted many of them so many times here that I am now just guiding those who don't know to the Isaiah chapters of 40 through 48.
It claims multiple times, multiple ways, that God is ONE INDIVIDUAL PERSON and that He IS Jesus Christ. Not that they are a trio, or a duo, but that God the Father IS Jesus Christ.
It doesn't at all. The only way anybody can embrace a trinity concept about God is to completely ignore, or have no knowledge whatsoever of, all of the verses in the Bible that make the trinity impossible.
The problem with all those who support the notion of a trinity is that they completely skip the step of producing any verse/passage that "TEACHES" a concept that God is THREE PEOPLE.
If you can provide that, I will happily concede.
You cannot.
Until/unless that very specific information is brought forth for all to review in their Bibles, the trinity has no leg whatsoever to stand upon.
This isn't personal in the least. It is 100% objective and is based upon the factual content of the Bible.
Produce the content, prove the case.
That's all there is to it.
God bless and have a great day.
I love you.
Actually, I'm not getting notifications about most of your replies.
Isn't that interesting?
Done been waiting.
For a couple millennia now.
No one can find it.
I mean, it's an awful big book.
Those are roles of one person which is Modalism, not Trinitarianism. Very different.
No. There are zero verses.
The problem is that you are not actually engaging with the argument I have made. I asked you to do more study on it but you refused, so I provided the answer which you ignored. But here it is again:
There are at least two Hebrew words that mean "one," yachid and echad. Yachid means an "absolute unity," that is, if used of God, it would mean he is a single, solitary "unit," absolutely only one person, as we are. That would obviously mean the Trinity is false.
However, yachid is never used of God. Only echad is used of God and that can refer to, although not necessarily, a compound unity—multiplicity within that one, such as “one nation under God;” that one nation consisting of millions of people. Echad is what "one" in English means and is what is used in Deut 6:4, for instance. It does leave the door open for the Trinity although it neither proves nor disproves it.
Hence why you cannot provide one single verse that states God is ontologically an absolute unity, only one person. There is no verse in the Bible which states that God is an absolute unity.
And as I have previously stated, all those verses that you provided show, is that there is only one God; they prove monotheism and have nothing to do with the actual nature of God.
On the contrary, the doctrine of the Trinity takes monotheism into account, the verses about both the deity and humanity of Jesus into account, those verses which imply the "personhood" and deity of the Holy Spirit into account, and the numerous instances where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are kept distinct from each other. It also doesn't ignore language, the rules of grammar, or logic.
Those who deny the Trinity necessarily either deny those verses which speak of monotheism, those which speak of Jesus's deity, those which speak of his humanity, or those which speak of the distinctness between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Which is not relevant to whether or not God is triune. Let's look at Matt:
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)
The grammar is once again meaningful. Notice that “name” is singular but three persons are mentioned.
"To be baptized upon the name is to be baptized on the confession of that which the name implies: on the ground of the name; so that the name Jesus, as the contents of the faith and confession, is the ground upon which the becoming baptized rests. In the name (ἐν) has reference to the sphere within which alone true baptism is accomplished. The name is not the mere designation, a sense which would give to the baptismal formula merely the force of a charm. The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up. It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature. When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man. He recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer, and his pattern of life; and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter." (M. R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament)
Notice this particular sentence: "The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up" (bold emphasis mine). So we see the "name," singular, expressing "the sum total of the divine Being" as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It doesn't need "that very specific information." You are presuming that God would have revealed himself in a certain way if it were true, when he is free to reveal himself in any way he chooses.
I have given much content that supports the doctrine of the Trinity, but you have thus far ignored most of it, so I am far from convinced that "that's all there is to it."
If you aren't getting notifications, you're certainly replying a fair bit to everyone else, which is what I find interesting. How is it that you seem to be getting their notifications and not mine? And why wouldn't you just quickly check to see if I have replied to you?
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