I was born a Jew, raised in a reformed Jewish home, was taught Hebrew by a rabbi, and was Bar Mitzvah at age 13. Since my life was very unhappy, despite my heritage and many pleading prayers to God, I became a serious atheist. Until God, in His mercy, healed me in the hospital, made my faith come alive, and gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit. I have been a sincere, passionately devoted Christian since that time. I am a saved Jew!!!
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
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The use of the plural pronouns “we and us,” as applicable to God, occurs several times in the Old Testament
The use of the plural pronouns “we and us,” as applicable to God, occurs several times in the Old Testament. Thus, Gen_1:26 : ‘And God said, Let us make man in our image;’ Gen_11:6-7 : ‘And Jehovah said, Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language.’ Such a use of the name of God in the plural is very common, but it is not clear that there is a reference to the doctrine of the Trinity. In some cases, it is evident that it cannot have such a reference, and that no “argument” can be drawn from the use of that plural form in favor of such a doctrine.
Thus, in Isa_19:4, the expression ‘a cruel lord,’ is in the Hebrew in the plural, yet evidently denoting but one. The expression translated ‘the most Holy One,’ or ‘the Holy,’ is in the plural in Pro_9:10; Pro_30:3. In 1Sa_19:13, 1Sa_19:16, the plural form is applied to a “household god,” or an image; and the plural form is applied to God in Job_30:25, ‘my Makers’ (Hebrew); Ecc_12:1, ‘thy Creators’ (Heb,); Psa_121:5, ‘Yahweh is thy keepers’ (Hebrew); see also Isa_54:5; Isa_22:2; Isa_43:5; Isa_62:5. This is called by grammarians pluralis excellentice, or the plural form indicating majesty or honor. It is, in all countries, used in reference to kings and princes; and as God often represents himself as a “king” in the Scriptures, and speaks in the language that was usually applied to kings in oriental countries, no argument can be drawn from expressions like these in defense of the doctrine of the Trinity.
(Albert Barnes)
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Praise God.
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I do! Every day! And I am thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those who, with an active faith, such as yourself, participate in online Christian forums.
And, yet, Albert Barnes says this about Gen 1:26-27 (from e-Sword):
Gen_1:26, Gen_1:27
Here we evidently enter upon a higher scale of being. This is indicated by the counsel or common resolve to create, which is now for the first time introduced into the narrative. When the Creator says, “Let us make man,” he calls attention to the work as one of pre-eminent importance. At the same time he sets it before himself as a thing undertaken with deliberate purpose. Moreover, in the former mandates of creation his words had regard to the thing itself that was summoned into being; as, “Let there be light;” or to some preexistent object that was physically connected with the new creature; as, “Let the land bring forth grass.” But now the language of the fiat of creation ascends to the Creator himself: Let us make man. This intimates that the new being in its higher nature is associated not so much with any part of creation as with the Eternal Uncreated himself.
The plural form of the sentence raises the question, With whom took he counsel on this occasion? Was it with himself, and does he here simply use the plural of majesty? Such was not the usual style of monarchs in the ancient East. Pharaoh says, “I have dreamed a dream” Gen_41:15. Nebuchadnezzar, “I have dreamed” Dan_2:3. Darius the Mede, “I make a decree” Dan_6:26. Cyrus, “The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth” Ezr_1:2. Darius, “I make a decree” Ezr_5:8. We have no ground, therefore, for transferring it to the style of the heavenly King. Was it with certain other intelligent beings in existence before man that he took counsel? This supposition cannot be admitted; because the expression “let us make” is an invitation to create, which is an incommunicable attribute of the Eternal One, and because the phrases, “our image, our likeness,” when transferred into the third person of narrative, become “his image, the image of God,” and thus limit the pronouns to God himself. Does the plurality, then, point to a plurality of attributes in the divine nature? This cannot be, because a plurality of qualities exists in everything, without at all leading to the application of the plural number to the individual, and because such a plurality does not warrant the expression, “let us make.” Only a plurality of persons can justify the phrase. Hence, we are forced to conclude that the plural pronoun indicates a plurality of persons or hypostases in the Divine Being.
You assume a lot.
What Does the Number 3 Mean in the Bible?
Before we dive into the number three, we have to explore the meaning of the number in Hebrew. Many numbers in the Hebrew language tend to have a deeper meaning.
Three, shelosh[f.], sheloshah [m.] means harmony, new life, and completeness.
The number three appears in the Bible 467 times, fewer than the number seven, but more than most of the other symbolically important numbers.
Sometimes three is used as an emphatic Semitic triplet to describe the intensity of something. It’s not just holy. It’s holy, holy, holy.
We do have to keep in mind, three isn’t always necessarily something good. In Revelation, we see an evil trinity: Satan, the Antichrist, and the False prophet (Revelations 12-13).
However, typically, three means something complete and good. Satan does often like to take something good from God and corrupt it, much like the number three and the concept of the Trinity.
8 Ways the Number 3 is Significant in the Bible:
Although we don’t have time to dive into all 467 refences to the number three, let's explore a handful.
1. God says something 3 times: We see God repeating a phrase three times in several places in Scripture. Jesus goes back to pray in the Garden of Gethsemane three times (Matthew 26:4). God calls the prophet Samuel thrice (1 Samuel 3:8). Jesus repeats the phrase “feed my sheep” to Peter three times (John 21:15-17).
2. Three of the same words: We see several instances of three of the same words in a row. Woe (three of them) are called out by an eagle in revelation, foreshadowing terrible judgment (Revelation 8:13), Jeremiah repeats the word “land” thrice (Jeremiah 22:29), and we hear the triplet of holy in Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3).
3. The third day: We can’t talk three without talking about how Jesus rose after three days (1 Corinthians 15:4). In Jewish culture, three days past the time of death indicated they were truly dead. Therefore, Jesus truly conquered death by not rising until the third day.
4. Three patriarchs: In Scripture, we have three patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 22:32). These were the fathers of the Israelite nation, God’s people.
5. Three prayers: This article suggests Early Christians may have had three set prayer times a day, modeled after verses like Psalm 55:17 and Daniel 6:10.
6. Three gifts: The Magi present to Jesus three gifts: gold, frankincense, and myrrh in Matthew 2.
7. Three angels: In Revelation 14:6-16, we encounter three angels. The first, tells all the earth to worship God. The second, declares the fall of Babylon. And the third, declares that anyone who receives the Mark of the Beast will receive God’s wrath.
8. The Trinity: Of course, we can’t look at the number three without looking at the Trinity: God is three in one: the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son (Colossians 2:9), and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).
What Should Christians Remember about the Number 3?
Even numbers aren’t outside of God’s grasp. God has ordered the world to follow mathematical and numerical patterns. We can see his design in how numbers operate even in nature, knowing that everything on earth points back to the fact that God exists, so we have no excuse not to praise him.
Also, three is important in terms of the Trinity. If God was one in one, he would either be dependent on humans to satisfy his loneliness (which would make him limited in his power), or worse, created humans to appease any of his needs. In essence, in that model, humans would be slaves to God, like the Canaanite gods of old, such as Moloch.
God doesn’t need us. He has love in his very essence. The dance of the Trinity, allows for God not to be dependent on our existence, but for every part of his being to be so, so full of love, each person of the Trinity giving of himself to the other members. Therefore, he created us as an act of love, not dependence.
Three carries an extreme significance throughout Scripture in prophetic fulfilment to the nature of our prayers. As Christians, we should remember to keep an eye out for any instance we see something thrice in Scripture. It’s either emphatically pointing to the essence of something, or showing the completeness of something.
Numbers are important in the Bible. We can often overlook these because our culture doesn’t have the same emphasis on number symbolism that the original audience had. But by looking at Scripture in context, we can dive even more into the richness of God’s word.
What Does the Number 3 Signify in the Bible?
Signifying completeness, the number three carries an extreme significance throughout Scripture.
www.crosswalk.com
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I am assuming nothing. I have clearly laid out my case based on what the Bible says.
I don't know why you posted this, as it goes against your position. This is pro-Trinity. Look at what they say:What Does the Number 3 Mean in the Bible?
Before we dive into the number three, we have to explore the meaning of the number in Hebrew. Many numbers in the Hebrew language tend to have a deeper meaning.
Three, shelosh[f.], sheloshah [m.] means harmony, new life, and completeness.
The number three appears in the Bible 467 times, fewer than the number seven, but more than most of the other symbolically important numbers.
Sometimes three is used as an emphatic Semitic triplet to describe the intensity of something. It’s not just holy. It’s holy, holy, holy.
We do have to keep in mind, three isn’t always necessarily something good. In Revelation, we see an evil trinity: Satan, the Antichrist, and the False prophet (Revelations 12-13).
However, typically, three means something complete and good. Satan does often like to take something good from God and corrupt it, much like the number three and the concept of the Trinity.
8 Ways the Number 3 is Significant in the Bible:
Although we don’t have time to dive into all 467 refences to the number three, let's explore a handful.
1. God says something 3 times: We see God repeating a phrase three times in several places in Scripture. Jesus goes back to pray in the Garden of Gethsemane three times (Matthew 26:4). God calls the prophet Samuel thrice (1 Samuel 3:8). Jesus repeats the phrase “feed my sheep” to Peter three times (John 21:15-17).
2. Three of the same words: We see several instances of three of the same words in a row. Woe (three of them) are called out by an eagle in revelation, foreshadowing terrible judgment (Revelation 8:13), Jeremiah repeats the word “land” thrice (Jeremiah 22:29), and we hear the triplet of holy in Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3).
3. The third day: We can’t talk three without talking about how Jesus rose after three days (1 Corinthians 15:4). In Jewish culture, three days past the time of death indicated they were truly dead. Therefore, Jesus truly conquered death by not rising until the third day.
4. Three patriarchs: In Scripture, we have three patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 22:32). These were the fathers of the Israelite nation, God’s people.
5. Three prayers: This article suggests Early Christians may have had three set prayer times a day, modeled after verses like Psalm 55:17 and Daniel 6:10.
6. Three gifts: The Magi present to Jesus three gifts: gold, frankincense, and myrrh in Matthew 2.
7. Three angels: In Revelation 14:6-16, we encounter three angels. The first, tells all the earth to worship God. The second, declares the fall of Babylon. And the third, declares that anyone who receives the Mark of the Beast will receive God’s wrath.
8. The Trinity: Of course, we can’t look at the number three without looking at the Trinity: God is three in one: the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son (Colossians 2:9), and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).
What Should Christians Remember about the Number 3?
Even numbers aren’t outside of God’s grasp. God has ordered the world to follow mathematical and numerical patterns. We can see his design in how numbers operate even in nature, knowing that everything on earth points back to the fact that God exists, so we have no excuse not to praise him.
Also, three is important in terms of the Trinity. If God was one in one, he would either be dependent on humans to satisfy his loneliness (which would make him limited in his power), or worse, created humans to appease any of his needs. In essence, in that model, humans would be slaves to God, like the Canaanite gods of old, such as Moloch.
God doesn’t need us. He has love in his very essence. The dance of the Trinity, allows for God not to be dependent on our existence, but for every part of his being to be so, so full of love, each person of the Trinity giving of himself to the other members. Therefore, he created us as an act of love, not dependence.
Three carries an extreme significance throughout Scripture in prophetic fulfilment to the nature of our prayers. As Christians, we should remember to keep an eye out for any instance we see something thrice in Scripture. It’s either emphatically pointing to the essence of something, or showing the completeness of something.
Numbers are important in the Bible. We can often overlook these because our culture doesn’t have the same emphasis on number symbolism that the original audience had. But by looking at Scripture in context, we can dive even more into the richness of God’s word.
What Does the Number 3 Signify in the Bible?
Signifying completeness, the number three carries an extreme significance throughout Scripture.
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"Also, three is important in terms of the Trinity. If God was one in one, he would either be dependent on humans to satisfy his loneliness (which would make him limited in his power), or worse, created humans to appease any of his needs. In essence, in that model, humans would be slaves to God, like the Canaanite gods of old, such as Moloch.
God doesn’t need us. He has love in his very essence. The dance of the Trinity, allows for God not to be dependent on our existence, but for every part of his being to be so, so full of love, each person of the Trinity giving of himself to the other members. Therefore, he created us as an act of love, not dependence."
I have made that very argument in this thread more than once, and it proves your doctrine of the oneness of God wrong. This is no small problem with Oneness theology. The God of Oneness theology is deficient, his nature is lacking since he cannot be love, as John states in 1 John 4:8 and 16. Therefore, he cannot be the God of the Bible.
You have not been taking notice.
The problem is with the word NOT. Do you believe in One God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like I do, or do you believe the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father as the diagram states?
If the latter, you have three individual gods, which is polytheism.
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I most certainly have.
No, there is no problem there. It is actually affirming the eternal distinctness of the three persons that God reveals about himself to us in the Bible.
Both. That is rather the point.
No, we do not. At least show that you're trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I don't know how many more times I can say to you that the doctrine of the Trinity affirms monothesim. I have repeatedly made that clear.
Here are just some problems with your position that you need to address:
1. God, as you portray him, is deficient in nature, contradicting what John says, namely, that "God is love."
2. There is not a single verse in the Bible that states God is only one person, an absolute unity.
3. It ignores the logic of the grammar of verses such as John 1:1, that the Word was both "with God" and "was God."
4. It makes God's revealing of himself as Father and Son completely meaningless; it communicates nothing to us.
5. It makes the continual distinctions between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit pointless.
You are missing the point and I am wasting my time.
And when I posted about the number three, I was showing it's significance in Judaism. They were into numerology.
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Okay. So why is that relevant? What does it's significance in Judaism have to do with the discussion?
Numerology is important in Judaism. Three days and three nights means long enough to die and is significant for Christ and Jonah. Just be aware of it. When you read about the number seven, for example, don't say the first thing that comes into your head.
ALSO. Did you not notice what I said in red? Do you believe in One God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like I do (My faith)
or do you believe the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father as the diagram states?"
Your endorsement of the alternative option in italics indicates you believe in three individual gods which is polytheism. You would be better to believe, like I do in "ONE omnipresent God who is, 'all things in all places."
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But this doesn't answer my question: What does it's significance in Judaism have to do with the discussion? I am well aware of how numbers are important in Judaism, including the number 3, but why do you think it is important to the discussion?
If anything, it would support God being triune.
I said "both," didn't I? What I believe is that there is one God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but where the Father is not the Son and neither of them are the Holy Spirit. That is the biblically based doctrine of the Trinity.
Again, NO, it is absolutely NOT polytheism. Misrepresenting others' positions is a violation of the ToS, and you need to stop doing that. Are you even trying to understand the Trinity?
Certainly not, as that isn't biblical. Of course, you're just begging the question when it comes to the meaning of "one." You have some serious problems with your position that you need to address, if you care to address those points I made about your position. I've posted them more than once and you have yet to either respond or respond with an adequate explanation.
I feel like screaming. My patience is exhausted.
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Why? The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated specifically to avoid numerous charges, including being polytheistic or tripartite. There is simply no way to take the doctrine as being polytheistic.
You really need to address the points I made that are problematic for your position, as they may help shed some light on the situation.
There are other places I would rather be. You have succeeded in getting rid of me.
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Well, it's too bad you feel that way. It certainly was not my intent to get rid of you, but rather to get you to think through these things more fully.
That's not what I asked. But I'll let it go.
Jesus is not the Father by "your" own defined statement.
Jesus=>"father into your hands I commit "my" spirit"
Jesus=>"It is the "Father" living IN ME doing "His" work.
The Fact that no one knows the date or hour of restoring the kingdom to Israel neither the angels of God nor the "Son" only the Father who set that date is a clear indication Jesus and the Father have their own minds as well.
Yet the Spirit of God searches the deep thoughts of God and knows the mind of the Spirit. So the Father could not keep that date unknown from His "own" Spirit. But by His "will" can keep "His" own Spirit from revealing that date to any other including His Son.
The Spirit does not speak on His own but only what He hears. So while the Spirit does bear witness those who listen and learn from "the Father" go to Jesus. "They shall all be taught by "God".
Peter learned from "the Father who is in heaven", not man on earth, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God
Matt 16:17-Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
So we do see only One Deity but two persons.
Jesus identified the Deity living in Him. He stated the Father.
The mind of the Holy Spirit is the Father who alone states "My Spirit" in regard to that Spirit.
The Fathers Promise=>In these last days I will pour out "My" Spirit... Jesus Himself spoke of another advocate.
Jesus sat down "with" "His" Father" on "His" Fathers throne" Thats 2 persons united by that 1 Deity who Jesus identified as the Father.
But you are correct in that's there is only one God or deity. But we also have one Lord and in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell. Col 1:19 As has been stated all the fullness of the Deity or "Godhead" "lives" IN HIM. Col 2:9
Another consideration about the Son.
"All" that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son. So not only is the Son the very imprint of Gods being through the glory of oneness with the Father but all things are His as well.
Its not what others do nor what the "Lord" does that makes you uncomfortable. Its what you do.
Personally we are are all brothers and sisters in Christ and I would prefer if you stayed with us.
We have your answer in that you don't see 3 persons but only one God as all.
We can move on in peace.
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