Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Free]

It also divides His glory which the Bible does nowhere and His glory cannot be divided.

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
...
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. (ESV)

Your disagreement is with Scripture.

 

[BB1956]

Jesus is both man and God with us in the flesh.

Sometimes he spoke as a man, and other times he healed the sick, something only God can do.
.

So you're saying those who raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons like Jesus, meaning Jesus apostles, each one of those apostles is God too.
Sorry I'm not going to agree with your statement that Jesus is both God and man. I agree that because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who is the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 that means God is with us. That doesn't mean Jesus who is the promised seed is God himself though.

 

[jaybo]

So you're saying those who raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons like Jesus, meaning Jesus apostles, each one of those apostles is God too.
Sorry I'm not going to agree with your statement that Jesus is both God and man. I agree that because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who is the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 that means God is with us. That doesn't mean Jesus who is the promised seed is God himself though.

So if, according to you, Jesus is not God, then He was simply a man when on earth. When He said, "The Father and I are one" (John 10:30), He was mistaken?

Also, in John 17:11, "And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one." He was mistaken here also?

And here also? "that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21

Where else is the Bible wrong?

 

[Cooper]

So you're saying those who raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons like Jesus, meaning Jesus apostles, each one of those apostles is God too.
Sorry I'm not going to agree with your statement that Jesus is both God and man. I agree that because Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who is the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 that means God is with us. That doesn't mean Jesus who is the promised seed is God himself though.

 

[BB1956]

So if, according to you, Jesus is not God, then He was simply a man when on earth. When He said, "The Father and I are one" (John 10:30), He was mistaken?

Also, in John 17:11, "And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one." He was mistaken here also?

And here also? "that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21

Where else is the Bible wrong?

I'm not saying Jesus is mistaken about anything. I'm saying you're mistaken because you're taking John 10:30 out of context. Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in one with me and I am in one with you, that they also may be in one with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one.” Jesus wasn't praying that all his disciples would become one single entity. Jesus obviously was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were. (1 Corinthians 1:10) This is what John 10:30 means, that Jesus and his Father are one in thought and purpose. So at John 17:11 you're not actually insisting that when Jesus is asking God in prayer to protect his apostles and disciples so that they be one as Jesus and God were one that Jesus is saying that he was wanting all his apostles to be one single entity are you. Because that's not what Jesus was praying to his Father, he wasn't wanting his Father to make his apostles to become one single entity.

Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”

Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36) Jesus didn't claim that he was God, but that he was the Son of God.

 

[theWind]

You can continue denying scriptures like John 17:3, and John 20:17 which show us that Jesus wasn't saying he was God or the Father and God of his apostles and disciples. Instead he was showing us that the person he prayed to, the person he said was his Father and God was his apostles Father and God.

You can continue denying the verse I just posted as well as Isaiah 9:6 which tells us exactly who Jesus would be almost a thousand years prior to His birth.

Neither John 17:3, nor 20:17 proves in any way that Jesus is not God. And when a verse "appears" to say something, it must be compared to all that the Bible has to say on the subject elsewhere.

 

[theWind]

Because God reveals that he is the only true God. It's just being biblical.

That same God declares to be ALL that Christ is in Isaiah chapters 40-48.

Again, this is about be true to all that God reveals about himself in Scripture.

No, you are not representing that at all.

You need to take your own advice and accept ALL that is revealed about God in Scripture.

Try that just once and you will no longer be trinitarian.

 

[theWind]

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
...
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. (ESV)

Your disagreement is with Scripture.

John 17:5 says "with Thine own self" not with thy presence.

God cannot be separated from Christ as He fills the heaven and the earth. Jeremiah 23:24

And I never declared that Christ didn't come from God.

Your misunderstanding is with Scripture.

 

[Free]

That same God declares to be ALL that Christ is in Isaiah chapters 40-48.

I don’t understand what your point is here. Which verses and what do they say about Christ?

You chastise one user saying, “Thanks for purposely generalizing to an entire chapter,” but then do worse by generalizing to nine chapters.

No, you are not representing that at all.

You need to take your own advice and accept ALL that is revealed about God in Scripture.

Try that just once and you will no longer be trinitarian.

I have done it, and the Trinity has stood the test of time for a reason—because it best takes into account all that God reveals about himself in Scripture. The modern Modalism that is Oneness has been around for about 100 years.

 

[BB1956]

You can continue denying the verse I just posted as well as Isaiah 9:6 which tells us exactly who Jesus would be almost a thousand years prior to His birth.

Neither John 17:3, nor 20:17 proves in any way that Jesus is not God. And when a verse "appears" to say something, it must be compared to all that the Bible has to say on the subject elsewhere.

I'll continue denying your interpretation of certain scriptures, mainly because you outright disregard what Jesus or his apostles said in the scriptures. Scriptures like john 17:3, John 20:17, 21, 22, John 10:30-36, Philippians 2:3-6 to name just a few.

 

[jaybo]

I'm not saying Jesus is mistaken about anything. I'm saying you're mistaken because you're taking John 10:30 out of context. Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in one with me and I am in one with you, that they also may be in one with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one.” Jesus wasn't praying that all his disciples would become one single entity. Jesus obviously was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were. (1 Corinthians 1:10) This is what John 10:30 means, that Jesus and his Father are one in thought and purpose. So at John 17:11 you're not actually insisting that when Jesus is asking God in prayer to protect his apostles and disciples so that they be one as Jesus and God were one that Jesus is saying that he was wanting all his apostles to be one single entity are you. Because that's not what Jesus was praying to his Father, he wasn't wanting his Father to make his apostles to become one single entity.

Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”

Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36) Jesus didn't claim that he was God, but that he was the Son of God.

You quote this: "you, Father, are in one with me and I am in one with you, that they also may be in one with us" and then contradict it. Why is that?

It is very sad that you don't understand the Trinity, the three-person God identified in the Bible.

 

[Free]

John 17:5 says "with Thine own self" not with thy presence.

The meaning is the same, perhaps even stronger with the KJV.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Notice that Jesus says he was "with thee before the world was." That is, the Son existed with the Father prior to creation. This is only possible if both have always existed. This fully confirms John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17, and others.

God cannot be separated from Christ as He fills the heaven and the earth. Jeremiah 23:24

What do you mean and what are you trying to prove?

And I never declared that Christ didn't come from God.

I never said you did. The two points are 1) both the Father and the Son were in existence prior to creation, and 2) one person sends another; one doesn't send oneself. That's the language of distinctness, along with the obvious of the Son praying to the Father.

Your misunderstanding is with Scripture.

You haven’t shown that to be the case yet.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The doctrine of mutual intratrinitarian communion or circumincession is a joint concurrence of all three persons. In other words the external or outward works of the Trinity are undivided: that is, all three persons agree and cooperate in the works done by any of them. The works of each member of the Trinity is common and undivided. As they have but one Being, one Essence, so they have but one work. However, because they have distinct subsistences the person have several manner of working. Thus the father is said to raise Christ (Roman 4:24; Colossians 2:12-13), it is also true that Christ raised Himself (John 2:19; 10:17-18), and the Spirit raised Christ (Romans 8:11). Because all Three Persons concur in every work, the Father, Son (the divine nature of the Son) and Holy Spirit are said to have raised Christ from the Dead. The Father as the fountain of the other two subsistences, begins the work, the Son carries on the motion, and the Spirit, proceeding from both, perfects, consummates and executes the work (1 Corinthians 8:6). Author Unknown

All the expert trinitarians in the end say it's a mystery.

What is the practical implications of saying Christ is not God?
John 8:24
NASB "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
NET Thus I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus' hearers needed to believe that He was "I am." In context, this phrase has heavy theological connotations (cf. vv. 28, 58; 13:19). It appeared puzzling at first, but later Jesus' hearers realized that He was claiming to be God (cf. v. 59). The NIV's "the one I claim to be" is an interpretation of Jesus' meaning that is perhaps more misleading than helpful. Jesus was alluding to the title that God gave Himself in the Old Testament (Exod. 3:14; Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4; 43:10, 13, 25; 46:4; 48:12). Essentially "I am" means the eternally self-existent being.[620] Unless a person believes that Jesus is God, in contrast with less than God, he or she will die in his or her sins. Tom Constable

 

[theWind]

I don’t understand what your point is here. Which verses and what do they say about Christ?

You know exactly which verses.

You chastise one user saying, “Thanks for purposely generalizing to an entire chapter,” but then do worse by generalizing to nine chapters.

That user was you under another screen name.

No need to specify when I've been round and round with you on this enough times to point out every verse in the Bible. It doesn't make any difference. You're not an honest and reasonable person.

I have done it, and the Trinity has stood the test of time for a reason—because it best takes into account all that God reveals about himself in Scripture.

You've never done it and the trinity has been challenged by True Christians, due to its completely unbiblical claims, countless times since it was first created thousands of years ago.

The modern Modalism that is Oneness has been around for about 100 years.

I've already proven to you that Oneness and Modalism are not the same thing - about as many times as I've shown you ALL the Isaiah verses that make an absolute joke of the trinity.

 

[theWind]

I'll continue denying your interpretation of certain scriptures, mainly because you outright disregard what Jesus or his apostles said in the scriptures. Scriptures like john 17:3, John 20:17, 21, 22, John 10:30-36, Philippians 2:3-6 to name just a few.

I could very easily put a list of about 50 Scriptures from Isaiah right here for you to "outright disregard", but I won't waste my time.

They can be found strewn throughout this thread for pages and pages.

The Bible very clearly declares that Christ is God. Those who deny that fact do so at great dismissal of massive quantities of Scripture.

You desperately need Christ not to be God while those who know that He is only need for the Bible to tell them what the Truth is and to accept that in whatever form it comes in.

Those who believe Christ is not God have a very, very limited grasp of the Bible as a whole.

 

[theWind]

You haven’t shown that to be the case yet.

I've shown it a hundred times over.

You live in a bustling city called denial.

Just like your very stubborn denial of Jer. 23:24 that obviously states that God fills the heavens and earth. The point there is obvious when you are claiming God and Jesus are/were separate and I specifically stated that they cannot be separate for that reason, but you continue to play, "What, where? I can't see anything!"

God blinds the eyes of the unbelieving, but that's not the case concerning you. You have an agenda.

 

[Fastfredy0]

theWind
I take exception to what you said about Free. I've found him to be articulate, reasonable, logical, well versed (pun intended), interesting and enjoyable to read. Keep up the good work Free.

 

[Free]

You know exactly which verses.

You said: "That same God declares to be ALL that Christ is in Isaiah chapters 40-48."

But I don't know which verses you think mention Christ.

That user was you under another screen name.

No need to specify when I've been round and round with you on this enough times to point out every verse in the Bible. It doesn't make any difference.

Certainly wasn't me. If you mean the ones where God says he is the only God, I don't see what your comment has to do with that.

You're not an honest and reasonable person.

I have been nothing but honest and reasonable. Please read the ToS again as there are consequences for such violations.

You've never done it

Again, please read the ToS.

and the trinity has been challenged by True Christians, due to its completely unbiblical claims, countless times since it was first created thousands of years ago.

Challenged is one thing. I said it has stood the test of time.

I've already proven to you that Oneness and Modalism are not the same thing -

Oneness is a combination of the Trinity and Modalism. For some reason it needs to appear Trinitarian although it denies it. I wonder why that is?

about as many times as I've shown you ALL the Isaiah verses that make an absolute joke of the trinity.

You seem to "forget" that I have rebutted each attempt of yours but you have always ignored my rebuttal. Repeating something doesn't make it actually true, although it tends to make one believe it is.

I've shown it a hundred times over.

Not once.

You live in a bustling city called denial.

Again, read the ToS.

Just like your very stubborn denial of Jer. 23:24 that obviously states that God fills the heavens and earth.

I know what it says. Even an atheist can quote Scripture but that doesn't mean he has understood it. And it usually is, although not always, rather pointless without commentary as to what the person thinks it says or how it relates to a discussion.

The point there is obvious when you are claiming God and Jesus are/were separate and I specifically stated that they cannot be separate for that reason,

Without your commentary I didn't know what your point was and I'm not going to presume, so I asked. That's what honest and reasonable people do. This proof-text in no way whatsoever proves the Trinity false. I'm not sure why you think it would. God fills the heaven and earth. This has nothing to do with whether or not the Father and the Son are distinct persons within the "Godhead."

but you continue to play, "What, where? I can't see anything!"

Again, read the ToS.

God blinds the eyes of the unbelieving, but that's not the case concerning you. You have an agenda.

For the last time, read the ToS. There are several violations in two posts.

 

[Free]

theWind
I take exception to what you said about Free. I've found him to be articulate, reasonable, logical, well versed (pun intended), interesting and enjoyable to read. Keep up the good work Free.

Thanks. That's a good pun. I may have to borrow it.

 

[BB1956]

You quote this: "you, Father, are in one with me and I am in one with you, that they also may be in one with us" and then contradict it. Why is that?

It is very sad that you don't understand the Trinity, the three-person God identified in the Bible.

I'm not contradicting nothing you just don't want people to go by all that Jesus says at John 10:30. You want people to ignore what Jesus said at John 10:31-36. You just want people to read John 10:30. You just want to pick and choose what scripture to read and reason on but ignore the other verses that Jesus said right there at John 10:30-36. Because right in the context after John 10:30 Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: "Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, I am God's son?" So when Jesus said what he said at John 10:30 he wasn't claiming to be God, but instead he was claiming to be the Son of God, and he and his Father who was and is the True God were united(one) in thought and purpose.