Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Free]

1 Corinthians 8:6 presents a problem for the Trinitarian. I think you should spend some time thinking about what it says and what it means for the doctrine of the Trinity.

It presents no problem at all. In fact, it fully supports trinitarianism. Be very careful in assuming that I haven't spent time thinking about it.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Firstly, it really does look like Paul is expanding on the Shema to include both the Father and the Son in the one God and Lord. Secondly, if the Father and the Son are not distinct persons within the one God, then why even mention both here as distinct persons? Why does Paul and every other writer in the NT continually and consistently keep them distinct? If they are one and the same, this is not only pointless, it unnecessarily creates confusion.

I have overcome this problem in my own thinking; I think that I believe in the Trinity even in light of the fact that there is one Lord Jesus Christ and that this one Lord has to be the Father according to Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.

If you believe that Jesus is Lord and that "this one Lord has to be the Father," then, by definition, you most certainly do not believe the Trinity.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; (ESV)

Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. (ESV)

Jesus is praying to the Father. Therefore, he cannot also be the Father.

I'm not sure what the passage from 2 Cor 6 has to do with anything.

As I have repeatedly stated in this thread, a son is never his own father nor a father his own son.

The distinction being that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh and the Son is the same Spirit inhabiting human flesh.

The Son has always existed, even as the Father has existed. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity states.

 

[Randy]

Randy, I think you agree that Jesus is God.

Don't you?

yes and no
He never dies,
Yes, He is all that the Father is. All the fullness of Gods Deity lives in Him.
No, He has always been the Son. The Firstborn of God

For purposes of your view of oneness Jesus calls the Father the only true God and His God and His Father. The only way He can be the Father Himself is if what Jesus testified to is NOT truth.

Jesus also testified to the Deity living in Him "The Father"

Jesus stated He is one witness who testifies about Himself and the "other" witness who testifies about Him is the "Father".

Paul stated in setting Jesus above all does not mean God Himself. again two persons

For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
There is only on true Deity, the Father, and it is that one true Deity in fullness that dwells or lives in Christ. Jesus, the Firstborn, has His own spirit that can not be Deity.

"Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him and the Father was living in Him. They are one in that manner.

How many times did Paul state this theme?
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BB1956]

Like adding millions of years to the Creation story?

I don't think the planet earth is only 6000 years old if that's what you mean.

 

[BB1956]

What was He then?

The scriptures tell you clearly that God sent his only begotten Son

 

[theWind]

yes and no

Now that's a first.

You believe Jesus is God, but He isn't God.

That feels like a very unstable belief system.

I'm glad my doctrine is simple.

Just makes life so much easier.

 

[theWind]

The scriptures tell you clearly that God sent his only begotten Son

They also tell us who that Son would be, The Eternal Father.

They also tell us there is only one God, that He is a Spirit and He is the only individual Savior.

You have to take all that is written, not just cherry-pick and live upon the begotten Son angle. There's more to the story that must be considered.

 

[Randy]

Now that's a first.

You believe Jesus is God, but He isn't God.

That feels like a very unstable belief system.

I'm glad my doctrine is simple.

Just makes life so much easier.

"context" He is all that the Father is because all the Fullness of God's deity lives in Him.
It is the Father living in Him.

 

[Randy]

Like adding millions of years to the Creation story?

I think the importance is in "God" created not the timeline.

 

[BB1956]

Body, soul, and spirit. Luke tells us in Chapter 8 and verse 55 that the spirit is life.

Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not; believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, James, and John, and the father and mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept and bewailed her; but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway; and he commanded to give her meat.
Luk 8:56 And her parents were astonished; but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.


Secondly, I suggest our spirit defines who we are. We are all born with the spirit of Adam, and we know the spirit of Hitler and various others. Our spirit is invisible, but even so, it defines who we are. Believers have the spirit of Christ, and it is easy on the forums to know who has the spirit of God within them and who has the spirit of the opposer.

When the Bible talks about man’s spirit, it is usually speaking of an inner force which animates a person in one direction or another. It is repeatedly shown as a mover, a dynamic force (e.g., Numbers 14:24). and although the Spirit is invisible, or as some would say non-existent, goodness me, it is the driving force behind everything we believe in and do.
.

When the scriptures say at Luke 8:55 "and her spirit came again," its not talking about some living person coming back into her human body it just means her life returned. The New living translation teaches us this when it says at Luke 8:55-"And at that moment her life returned, and she immediately stood up! Then Jesus told them to give her something returned.

 

[BB1956]

John 1:1, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 10:30, "The Father and I are one"

You can write whatever you want to disagree with this, but it's what the Bible clearly states.

John 10:30 is taken out of context by trinitarians. Trinitarians definitely don't listen to the scriptures surrounding of John 10:30. Any reasonable person can see that what Jesus said at John 10:30 by reading the scriptures surrounding John 10:30 that Jesus wasn't saying he was God or equal to him.

John 1:1 has been debated on for centuries. Not all Bibles translate John 1:1 the same.

 

[theWind]

I think the importance is in "God" created not the timeline.

Well, but the timeline implies evolution ... which is an unproven theory.

And if one believes in evolution, they do not believe in the Bible's teaching of Creation.

One can't have it both ways.

 

[theWind]

"context" He is all that the Father is because all the Fullness of God's deity lives in Him.
It is the Father living in Him.

And if He says, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.", who is He speaking of?

God or Joseph?

God has no physical image. He is invisible spirit.

So if you've seen Christ, you've seen the Father can't simply mean that Jesus resembles the Father as the Father has no visual image. It can only mean that Jesus is the Father.

And if Jesus says those who believe in Me, believe not in Me, but in the Father, that means the opposite is true. Those who do not believe in Him, believe not in the Father. How can that be unless Jesus IS the Father?

 

[BB1956]

I, too, have read about the Trinity from multiple authors and talked with others, and not once have I ever heard anyone deny that the Word is the pre-incarnate Son of God. Yes, the Word is God, in nature, that is what John 1:1 teaches. And so, it is also correct to say that God became flesh, because the Son of God is God, just not the Father.

Perhaps there is misunderstanding on your part as to what the words mean as trinitarians use them. This is what becomes so dangerous with cults like Mormonism and JWs--they use Christian words but change their meaning and it causes a lot of confusion, purposely.

You continue to say Jesus is God in the flesh and I'll continue to say he's the only begotten Son of God. And I really don't care what you think about JW's. What I will say is that judging you do isn't going to convince me you're teaching the truth from the scriptures.

It's not a matter of what I say anyways, it that people don't believe what Jesus himself says. For instance trinitarians have this habit of taking a scripture say like john 10:30 or Philippians 2:6 and don't bother to read the surrounding scriptures of these verses. In neither of these scriptures is Jesus saying he's God or that he and God are the same person or that Jesus is saying he was equal to God. But like for centuries that's what trinitarians been trying to teach people and these scriptures are not saying what trinitarians are saying these scriptures are saying.

 

[Cooper]

When the scriptures say at Luke 8:55 "and her spirit came again," its not talking about some living person coming back into her human body it just means her life returned. The New living translation teaches us this when it says at Luke 8:55-"And at that moment her life returned, and she immediately stood up! Then Jesus told them to give her something returned.

Luke 8:49-55
.

 

[jaybo]

John 10:30 is taken out of context by trinitarians. Trinitarians definitely don't listen to the scriptures surrounding of John 10:30. Any reasonable person can see that what Jesus said at John 10:30 by reading the scriptures surrounding John 10:30 that Jesus wasn't saying he was God or equal to him.

John 1:1 has been debated on for centuries. Not all Bibles translate John 1:1 the same.

You can rationalize your misunderstanding of the Trinity all you want, but that doesn't mean a thing.

The Godhead is three persons in one. That is what the Bible clearly states, and it is what Jesus attested to when He was in human form. You can negatively classify people as "trinitarians", which is a handy label but actually means nothing. I can, with more justification, classify them (including me) as those who understand the truth.

 

[jaybo]

You continue to say Jesus is God in the flesh and I'll continue to say he's the only begotten Son of God. And I really don't care what you think about JW's. What I will say is that judging you do isn't going to convince me you're teaching the truth from the scriptures.

It's not a matter of what I say anyways, it that people don't believe what Jesus himself says. For instance trinitarians have this habit of taking a scripture say like john 10:30 or Philippians 2:6 and don't bother to read the surrounding scriptures of these verses. In neither of these scriptures is Jesus saying he's God or that he and God are the same person or that Jesus is saying he was equal to God. But like for centuries that's what trinitarians been trying to teach people and these scriptures are not saying what trinitarians are saying these scriptures are saying.

Matthew 15:14b, "And if one blind person guides another, both will fall into a pit.”

 

[Cooper]

I think maybe you need to look at the definition of tripartite:

1 : divided into or composed of three parts

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tripartite

That means, it takes all three parts to make the one thing.


According to your analogy and claim that God is tripartite, your God cannot be God. If you take away any one thing, he would cease to be all three and therefore would cease to be God.

Also, as I have pointed out before, we are made in the image of God ontologically. In order for your analogy to work, we would have to have been made in the image of God after Jesus was born, since God did not have a body before then, and certainly not at the time of Gen 1:26-27.


I don't understand what you're getting at here.


I don't understand what your point is here, especially since we are supposed to be of one heart and mind.

You mean like a tree is roots, trunk and branches, while being one tree.
"The roots are not the trunk, the trunk is not the branches, the branches are not the roots, but it is ONE tree."

Jesus used the tree to illustrate his teaching.

(I'm going to get my leg pulled now.)
.

 

[Free]

Yes I understand what the Jews were saying about Jesus. They were making assumptions about what he said when he said, "I and the Father are one."

You're assuming that they made assumptions when there is no reason to believe that that is the case. Jesus spoke plainly and purposefully and they understood full well what he was saying.

Jesus wasn't saying he and his Father were the same person or in the same essence either. When Jesus used the word one in the neuter as it's used here at John10:30 it doesn't mean Jesus and his Father were the same person because as you said and I agree, the word one is in the neuter not the masuline.

I'm not saying they are the same person; they are the same essence.

John Calvin who was a Trinitarian disagrees with M.R. Vincent. John Calvin said in the book, Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”

If that is what Calvin stated, I disagree, in part, as the Jews would not have accused Jesus of blasphemy for being of one will with the Father, for the reasons I have already given. I do agree that there is agreement between the Father and the Son, that goes without saying, but there must be more to it than that for the accusation of blasphemy which Jesus doesn't correct.

What John Calvin said is in agreement with the context of the verses after John 10:30, because Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God.

Where, exactly, does Jesus "forcefully [argue] that his words were not a claim to be God"?

He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36) No, Jesus didn't claim he was God, but instead Jesus claimed he was the Son of God.

That's begging the question. The claim of being the Son of God, is a claim to deity, to be God. Why? Because a son is always of the same nature as his father.

In addition to the two instances where the Jews understood that claiming to be the Son of God is a claim to be God, look at a verse that is relevant to this season:

Joh 19:6 When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no guilt in him.”
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God.”
Joh 19:8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid. (ESV)

Jesus never does correct the Jews in this understanding.

 

[BB1956]

They also tell us who that Son would be, The Eternal Father.

They also tell us there is only one God, that He is a Spirit and He is the only individual Savior.

You have to take all that is written, not just cherry-pick and live upon the begotten Son angle. There's more to the story that must be considered.

I understand that Isaiah says, that Jesus is our eternal father, and he is. I just don't believe he's the eternal father that trinitarians say he is. See the only begotten Son of God took the place of the first Adam who was our Father. But Jesus is the last Adam and he is the Father of all those who exercise faith.

Before the first man, Adam, fathered children, he succumbed to sin. A rebel angel, who came to be called Devil and Satan, succeeded in causing him to disobey God. As a result, Adam lost his relationship as God’s son, as God said he would if he disobeyed. Thus, Adam suffered the consequences. He became imperfect, grew old, and eventually died.(Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19; Revelation 12:9)

Describing the effect that Adam’s disobedience had on all of us, his descendants, the Bible explains: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Sadly, we all inherited sin from our forefather Adam, along with its dire consequences, namely aging and death.(Job 14:4; Romans 3:23)

Release from such consequences could only be realized by having a perfect father, one who had not inherited sin and its dreadful consequences.

The promised “Prince of Peace,” as you will remember, is also called “Everlasting Father.” His human birth was foretold this way: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23) Jesus did not have a human father, nor did Adam, the first man. In tracing Jesus’ lineage back to the beginning of human history, the Bible historian Luke shows that Adam came into existence as a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) But, as we have learned, Adam lost that relationship as God’s son, for himself and for all of his offspring. So we all need, as it were, a new father who is perfect, one like Adam when he was created.

God sent his Son from heaven to be that new Adam to replace the first one. The Bible says: “‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Jesus, “the last Adam,” is like “the first man Adam” in that He was a perfect man, capable of fathering perfect offspring, who could live forever in perfection on earth.(Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4)

Jesus, who fathered no children, remained faithful to God until his death, despite every attack of Satan. The perfect human life of integrity that Jesus sacrificed, or gave up, is called the ransom. “We have the release [from the sin and death inherited from Adam] by ransom through the blood of [Jesus],” the Bible explains. It also says: “Just as through the disobedience of [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of [Jesus] many will be constituted righteous.”(Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:18, 19; Matthew 20:28)

If we exercise faith in Jesus, he will become both our “Everlasting Father” and our “Savior.”

 

[jaybo]

I understand that Isaiah says, that Jesus is our eternal father, and he is. I just don't believe he's the eternal father that trinitarians say he is. See the only begotten Son of God took the place of the first Adam who was our Father. But Jesus is the last Adam and he is the Father of all those who exercise faith.

Before the first man, Adam, fathered children, he succumbed to sin. A rebel angel, who came to be called Devil and Satan, succeeded in causing him to disobey God. As a result, Adam lost his relationship as God’s son, as God said he would if he disobeyed. Thus, Adam suffered the consequences. He became imperfect, grew old, and eventually died.(Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19; Revelation 12:9)

Describing the effect that Adam’s disobedience had on all of us, his descendants, the Bible explains: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Sadly, we all inherited sin from our forefather Adam, along with its dire consequences, namely aging and death.(Job 14:4; Romans 3:23)

Release from such consequences could only be realized by having a perfect father, one who had not inherited sin and its dreadful consequences.

The promised “Prince of Peace,” as you will remember, is also called “Everlasting Father.” His human birth was foretold this way: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23) Jesus did not have a human father, nor did Adam, the first man. In tracing Jesus’ lineage back to the beginning of human history, the Bible historian Luke shows that Adam came into existence as a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) But, as we have learned, Adam lost that relationship as God’s son, for himself and for all of his offspring. So we all need, as it were, a new father who is perfect, one like Adam when he was created.

God sent his Son from heaven to be that new Adam to replace the first one. The Bible says: “‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Jesus, “the last Adam,” is like “the first man Adam” in that He was a perfect man, capable of fathering perfect offspring, who could live forever in perfection on earth.(Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4)

Jesus, who fathered no children, remained faithful to God until his death, despite every attack of Satan. The perfect human life of integrity that Jesus sacrificed, or gave up, is called the ransom. “We have the release [from the sin and death inherited from Adam] by ransom through the blood of [Jesus],” the Bible explains. It also says: “Just as through the disobedience of [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of [Jesus] many will be constituted righteous.”(Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:18, 19; Matthew 20:28)

If we exercise faith in Jesus, he will become both our “Everlasting Father” and our “Savior.”

There is no "if" needed. Jesus already is both our “Everlasting Father” and our “Savior.” Faith is simply believing that truth.