Three person God identified in the Bible?

[Free]

You continue to say Jesus is God in the flesh and I'll continue to say he's the only begotten Son of God.

To me they are both one and the same; there is no difference.

And I really don't care what you think about JW's. What I will say is that judging you do isn't going to convince me you're teaching the truth from the scriptures.

That's fine. I've had enough discussions with JWs and read enough to know that they think no one outside the JWs is saved. They don't think I'm saved and I don't think they're saved, so there is no use trying to hide that fact. I'm just being honest and upfront about it.

It's not a matter of what I say anyways, it that people don't believe what Jesus himself says.

Everyone thinks this way, so such arguments get us nowhere. For instance, I believe everything Jesus says and everything the Bible says about God.

For instance trinitarians have this habit of taking a scripture say like john 10:30 or Philippians 2:6 and don't bother to read the surrounding scriptures of these verses. In neither of these scriptures is Jesus saying he's God or that he and God are the same person or that Jesus is saying he was equal to God. But like for centuries that's what trinitarians been trying to teach people and these scriptures are not saying what trinitarians are saying these scriptures are saying.

Phil 2:6 most certainly is part of a trinitarian passage. It makes no sense if the Son wasn't God and it makes no sense if the Son really was the Father.

 

[Cooper]

I understand that Isaiah says, that Jesus is our eternal father, and he is. I just don't believe he's the eternal father that trinitarians say he is. See the only begotten Son of God took the place of the first Adam who was our Father. But Jesus is the last Adam and he is the Father of all those who exercise faith.

Before the first man, Adam, fathered children, he succumbed to sin. A rebel angel, who came to be called Devil and Satan, succeeded in causing him to disobey God. As a result, Adam lost his relationship as God’s son, as God said he would if he disobeyed. Thus, Adam suffered the consequences. He became imperfect, grew old, and eventually died.(Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19; Revelation 12:9)

Describing the effect that Adam’s disobedience had on all of us, his descendants, the Bible explains: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Sadly, we all inherited sin from our forefather Adam, along with its dire consequences, namely aging and death.(Job 14:4; Romans 3:23)

Release from such consequences could only be realized by having a perfect father, one who had not inherited sin and its dreadful consequences.

The promised “Prince of Peace,” as you will remember, is also called “Everlasting Father.” His human birth was foretold this way: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23) Jesus did not have a human father, nor did Adam, the first man. In tracing Jesus’ lineage back to the beginning of human history, the Bible historian Luke shows that Adam came into existence as a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) But, as we have learned, Adam lost that relationship as God’s son, for himself and for all of his offspring. So we all need, as it were, a new father who is perfect, one like Adam when he was created.

God sent his Son from heaven to be that new Adam to replace the first one. The Bible says: “‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Jesus, “the last Adam,” is like “the first man Adam” in that He was a perfect man, capable of fathering perfect offspring, who could live forever in perfection on earth.(Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4)

Jesus, who fathered no children, remained faithful to God until his death, despite every attack of Satan. The perfect human life of integrity that Jesus sacrificed, or gave up, is called the ransom. “We have the release [from the sin and death inherited from Adam] by ransom through the blood of [Jesus],” the Bible explains. It also says: “Just as through the disobedience of [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of [Jesus] many will be constituted righteous.”(Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:18, 19; Matthew 20:28)

If we exercise faith in Jesus, he will become both our “Everlasting Father” and our “Savior.”

Added to which, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
.

 

[BB1956]

You can rationalize your misunderstanding of the Trinity all you want, but that doesn't mean a thing.

The Godhead is three persons in one. That is what the Bible clearly states, and it is what Jesus attested to when He was in human form. You can negatively classify people as "trinitarians", which is a handy label but actually means nothing. I can, with more justification, classify them (including me) as those who understand the truth

People are not wrong for reasoning on the scriptures. If someone disagrees with you on what a scripture says, that's their choice. But just because someone disagrees with someone else doesn't make him/her wrong on what they're saying the scriptures teach. There are going to be people in this world that are going to disagree with me and think they are honestly keeping themselves in scripture, I understand that. However I'm not going to agree to take a scripture out of context or outright ignore the things Jesus himself says. Too many people do not want people to listen to the surrounding verses of scriptures like John 10:30 or Philippians 2:6 to name just a couple.

 

[BB1956]

To me they are both one and the same; there is no difference.


That's fine. I've had enough discussions with JWs and read enough to know that they think no one outside the JWs is saved. They don't think I'm saved and I don't think they're saved, so there is no use trying to hide that fact. I'm just being honest and upfront about it.


Everyone thinks this way, so such arguments get us nowhere. For instance, I believe everything Jesus says and everything the Bible says about God.


Phil 2:6 most certainly is part of a trinitarian passage. It makes no sense if the Son wasn't God and it makes no sense if the Son really was the Father.

All this means to me with what people have said about Philippians 2:6, they trying to prove this scriptures proves that Jesus was equal to God but they refuse to listen to the scriptures surrounding Philippians 2:6 which prove the opposite of what they were trying to teach. This is what I mean about people

 

[BB1956]

There is no "if" needed. Jesus already is both our “Everlasting Father” and our “Savior.” Faith is simply believing that truth.

Some do not exercise faith although they believe they have. Jesus is the Eternal Father of those who truly exercise faith in that ransom sacrifice. People have to exercise faith to be saved.

 

[Randy]

And if He says, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.", who is He speaking of?

God or Joseph?

God has no physical image. He is invisible spirit.

So if you've seen Christ, you've seen the Father can't simply mean that Jesus resembles the Father as the Father has no visual image. It can only mean that Jesus is the Father.

And if Jesus says those who believe in Me, believe not in Me, but in the Father, that means the opposite is true. Those who do not believe in Him, believe not in the Father. How can that be unless Jesus IS the Father?

He told you the "Father" Living in who? Living In Him that is the person of Jesus.

How dis Joseph come into play? Wasn't Mary a virgin when she gave birth.
Does Joseph perform the "Fathers works

Further more Jesus gave us the glory of oneness that the Father gave Him.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”
Jesus sat down with His Father on His Fathers throne.
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Your position is untenable. Jesus is not His Father and God is not His Son

 

[Randy]

Interesting Read- FYI to ponder
John 1:18: The Only Begotten Son or the Only Begotten God?

Chapter 10. John 1:18 – The Only Begotten God or the Only Begotten Son? | Christian Disciples Church

www.christiandiscipleschurch.org

I think I favor the only "begotten God" Though the Deity that dwells in Christ was gifted not formed Col 1:19

 

[jaybo]

All this means to me with what people have said about Philippians 2:6, they trying to prove this scriptures proves that Jesus was equal to God but they refuse to listen to the scriptures surrounding Philippians 2:6 which prove the opposite of what they were trying to teach. This is what I mean about people

Philippians 4:2-11, " Let each of you look not to your own interests but to the interests of others. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,

who, though he existed in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
assuming human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a human,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.
Therefore God exalted him even more highly
and gave him the name
that is above every other name,
so that at the name given to Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

This all seems pretty clear to me. What is your interpretation?

 

[BB1956]

Philippians 4:2-11, " Let each of you look not to your own interests but to the interests of others. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,

who, though he existed in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
assuming human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a human,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.
Therefore God exalted him even more highly
and gave him the name
that is above every other name,
so that at the name given to Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

This all seems pretty clear to me. What is your interpretation?

Basically this scripture at Philippians 2:6 is saying that although Jesus was in God's form he didn't think or snatch at the idea he was equal to God.

But because of some Bible translations like the King James version and the Catholic Douay Version to name a couple, they read, “Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” So because of the way these Bibles translates this scripture is why many say and believe that this scripture is teaching that Jesus was equal to God. But all you have to do is read verses 3-6 of Philippians chapter two and you can see the verse 6 isn't saying Jesus thought himself equal with God. So why is it that for centuries trinitarians have tried to teach that it did say Jesus was equal with God.

 

[Free]

All this means to me with what people have said about Philippians 2:6, they trying to prove this scriptures proves that Jesus was equal to God but they refuse to listen to the scriptures surrounding Philippians 2:6 which prove the opposite of what they were trying to teach. This is what I mean about people

I think you need to read a bit closer what I actually said: "Phil 2:6 most certainly is part of a trinitarian passage. It makes no sense if the Son wasn't God and it makes no sense if the Son really was the Father."

My point is that the whole context of Phil 2:6 (I've never heard or read a trinitarian who argued to only Phil 2:6) is thoroughly Trinitarian. In the very least, it proves the deity of Jesus. But, given that the Son is not the Father, it also proves the Trinity.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Some important points to note about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. Firstly then, it was he who did the emptying. And, secondly, he emptied himself of something. That is, there is something that he emptied himself of something that was necessary in the taking on of a human form. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

The whole point of this passage is to show the humility of Christ, which we are to have (verses 1-5). There is no greater example of humility that could be conceived than that of God (the Son) coming to earth and taking on the form of one of his creatures.

 

[JLB]

To me there is but One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
As I have shown in this thread Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of the One who sent Him which according to Jesus's own testimony is the Father. The Fathers own Spirit would have the Fathers nature. "Deity" The spirit of a person knows the deeps thoughts of that person's mind and acts according to the will of that person. But it is not a separate person nor does the spirit have a separate distinct mind from the mind of the person.

They shall all be taught by God.
Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
The Father is in heaven how then does one hear the Father? By His Spirit who only speaks what He hears and knows the deep thoughts of the mind of the Spirit.

The Fathers promise-In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"
"another" to Jesus but NOT the Father
John 14
Jesus “If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

The Spirit does bear witness from what He hears not on His own but will remind us of what Jesus's witness testified to. So you have 3 witnesses, (Father, Son, Spirit) and they are of the one and same Deity of the Father. The Father, the Father living in the Son, and the Fathers Spirit or the Spirit of God.
John 15
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Those who belong to God hear what He says, and it is the Father who glorifies His Son and His Spirit bears witness to the Son. Again -they shall all be taught by God.

The reason people do not believe or hear Gods witness in regard to the Son is because they do not belong to God.
No one states "Jesus is Lord" apart from the Holy Spirit.

So my creed, but even so my prayers are mostly centered on Jesus in my mind. I have heard from Him in answers to things asked via the Spirit and do know Him.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord; YHWH the Lord God, or do you believe He was is just a man?



JLB

 

[Free]

Interesting Read- FYI to ponder
John 1:18: The Only Begotten Son or the Only Begotten God?

Chapter 10. John 1:18 – The Only Begotten God or the Only Begotten Son? | Christian Disciples Church

www.christiandiscipleschurch.org

I think I favor the only "begotten God" Though the Deity that dwells in Christ was gifted not formed Col 1:19

I disagree with the article that using "the one and only Son," or some version of that, makes it non-trinitarian. It does have somewhat of a point about the ESV's rendering, but in the context of John 1 and the greater context of Scripture, we still know that the Father is God and Jesus isn't the Father. So, it doesn't actually exclude the Father from being God.

Of course, a proper understanding of "begotten" is necessary and it simply means "unique," "only," or "one and only."

 

[Randy]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Lord; YHWH the Lord God, or do you believe He was is just a man?



JLB

I believe all that is written of Him.

 

[BB1956]

I think you need to read a bit closer what I actually said: "Phil 2:6 most certainly is part of a trinitarian passage. It makes no sense if the Son wasn't God and it makes no sense if the Son really was the Father."

My point is that the whole context of Phil 2:6 (I've never heard or read a trinitarian who argued to only Phil 2:6) is thoroughly Trinitarian. In the very least, it proves the deity of Jesus. But, given that the Son is not the Father, it also proves the Trinity.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ESV)

Some important points to note about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1--"the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The NIV has a clearer rendering of what is meant in verse 6: "being in very nature God." The Expositor's Greek Testament and M. R. Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) agree. That Paul is referring to the divinity of Christ is without question.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, he did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation. Again, the NIV brings out the meaning a bit better: "did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage."
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself. Firstly then, it was he who did the emptying. And, secondly, he emptied himself of something. That is, there is something that he emptied himself of something that was necessary in the taking on of a human form. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind. Whatever Paul means here, and we must always be careful to not say more or less than what the Bible says, Jesus, as God Incarnate, still maintains his full deity in becoming truly and fully human.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this is what John 1:14 is speaking of. Paul is contrasting Jesus's "being born in the likeness of men" with being in the "form of God."
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

The whole point of this passage is to show the humility of Christ, which we are to have (verses 1-5). There is no greater example of humility that could be conceived than that of God (the Son) coming to earth and taking on the form of one of his creatures.

Philippians 2:3, 4 says, "Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."
So here in these two verses Paul is telling the members in the Philippians congregation to think other members in the congregation as superior to them thus having a humble attitude among the members in the congregation.

Then Paul says at Philippians 2:5, "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus." In other words Paul here at verse 5 is telling the Philippians members in the congregation the example to follow as regards humility that example is Jesus Christ.

So Philippians 2:6 is telling the Philippians congegation members the mental attitude they are to have which was also Jesus mental attitude, "who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God."
So just as Jesus had the humble attitude that God who was his Father was superior to him, that he meaning Jesus didn't snatch at the idea he was equal to God his Father the Philippian congregation members are to follow this example of humility.

 

[Randy]

I disagree with the article that using "the one and only Son," or some version of that, makes it non-trinitarian. It does have somewhat of a point about the ESV's rendering, but in the context of John 1 and the greater context of Scripture, we still know that the Father is God and Jesus isn't the Father. So, it doesn't actually exclude the Father from being God.

Of course, a proper understanding of "begotten" is necessary and it simply means "unique," "only," or "one and only."

The only begotten God is according to the article the trinitarian following.

 

[Randy]

I disagree with the article that using "the one and only Son," or some version of that, makes it non-trinitarian. It does have somewhat of a point about the ESV's rendering, but in the context of John 1 and the greater context of Scripture, we still know that the Father is God and Jesus isn't the Father. So, it doesn't actually exclude the Father from being God.

Of course, a proper understanding of "begotten" is necessary and it simply means "unique," "only," or "one and only."

This is what caught my attention.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

 

[theWind]

He told you the "Father" Living in who? Living In Him that is the person of Jesus.

How dis Joseph come into play? Wasn't Mary a virgin when she gave birth.
Does Joseph perform the "Fathers works

Further more Jesus gave us the glory of oneness that the Father gave Him.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?”
Jesus sat down with His Father on His Fathers throne.
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Your position is untenable. Jesus is not His Father and God is not His Son

The Father has no outward physical image but Jesus.

That's the point.

The Father indwelled Jesus' flesh from birth.

That's the point.

The position that Christ could not be God is beyond untenable. It is an entirely different book than the Bible.

It is a wholely separate belief system from Christianity. It takes into account none of the major underlying themes of the gospel and tells a story that is completely innert and without any need for faith whatsoever.

 

[theWind]

Basically this scripture at Philippians 2:6 is saying that although Jesus was in God's form he didn't think or snatch at the idea he was equal to God.

But because of some Bible translations like the King James version and the Catholic Douay Version to name a couple, they read, “Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” So because of the way these Bibles translates this scripture is why many say and believe that this scripture is teaching that Jesus was equal to God. But all you have to do is read verses 3-6 of Philippians chapter two and you can see the verse 6 isn't saying Jesus thought himself equal with God. So why is it that for centuries trinitarians have tried to teach that it did say Jesus was equal with God.

That's not at all what it's saying.

The Bible even declares that the jews tried to kill Him because He did make Himself equal with God.

 

[BB1956]

That's not at all what it's saying.

The Bible even declares that the jews tried to kill Him because He did make Himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:3, 4 say, "Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."

So here in these two verses Paul is telling the members in the Philippians congregation to think other members in the congregation as superior to them thus having a humble attitude among the members in the congregation.

Then Paul says at Philippians 2:5, "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus." In other words Paul here at verse 5 is telling the Philippians members in the congregation the example to follow as regards humility that example is Jesus Christ.

So Philippians 2:6 is telling the Philippians congegation members the mental attitude they are to have which was also Jesus mental attitude, Philippians 2:6 says, "who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God."
So just as Jesus had the humble attitude or humble thinking that God who was his Father was superior to him, Jesus didn't snatch at the idea he was equal to God his Father, so the Philippian congregation members are to follow Jesus example of humility.

 

[theWind]

Philippians 2:3, 4 say, "Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."

So here in these two verses Paul is telling the members in the Philippians congregation to think other members in the congregation as superior to them thus having a humble attitude among the members in the congregation.

Then Paul says at Philippians 2:5, "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus." In other words Paul here at verse 5 is telling the Philippians members in the congregation the example to follow as regards humility that example is Jesus Christ.

So Philippians 2:6 is telling the Philippians congegation members the mental attitude they are to have which was also Jesus mental attitude, Philippians 2:6 says, "who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God."
So just as Jesus had the humble attitude or humble thinking that God who was his Father was superior to him, Jesus didn't snatch at the idea he was equal to God his Father, so the Philippian congregation members are to follow Jesus example of humility.

It says He did not consider it robbery to be equal to God.

You can't twist, cram, smash, beat or distort that into meaning what you want it to.