To those who pray to Mary...

[notapseudonym]

HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES


Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.

As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.

Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.

Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.

They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.

Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.

For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.

These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.

Taken from http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9405fea2sb.asp

Many people, including myself, find this to be the case

 

[Heidi]

According to you, then, I should get the credit for how my daughters turn out instead of God. Let's give praise to people for their good deeds instead of to God alone. Then we can increase the pride of man. The devil would sure love that!

 

[William Putnam]

According to you, then, I should get the credit for how my daughters turn out instead of God. Let's give praise to people for their good deeds instead of to God alone. Then we can increase the pride of man. The devil would sure love that!

First of all, that was beautiful, notapseudonym. It is precisely true that that the Protstants are more obsessed with Mary in a hysterical way then we Catholics are!

Heidi, I'll bet you are proud as punch if your daughters bring home good grades, or do some good deed for some older person, or what ever they may do right. Did God have anyting to do with it? I'm sure He did, especially if you prayed to Him for such the bestowed on your daughters.

But somehow, I think you are twisting around the idea the by praising Mary, we are neglecting praise to God. How can that possibly be, since why we praise Mary is precisely what she did as an instrument of God?

Mary is absolutely nothing if it were not for God, and if it were not that she was chosen to be the mother of His Divine Son.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

 

[Confusion]

[quote:a406d]quote:
Surely the Lord doesn't want us to worship something other than Himself

Agree. That is the very reason that devout Catholic Christians with a well-formed faith and conscience would never "worship" anyone/thing other than God.

quote:
Talking to someone that doesn't have worship and adoration in it for the person you are talking to isn't prayer.

To be more precise, what you describe would not be "worship" or "adoration." The word "prayer" can also be defined as "an earnest request; entreaty; supplication." [See Webster's New World College Dictionary] Earnestly entreating a departed Saint for intercession may appropriately be called "prayer" with no hint of "worship and adoration." [/quote:a406d]

[quote:a406d]Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede.

Dear Heavyduty,

It is definitely asking to intercede. I think a case for praying "to" the saints can be made, with the understanding that whatever power they may have is given them by God for His glory. But that is my person opinion , by no means Church teaching. [/quote:a406d]

Ephesians 6:18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

There are many verses about praying for each other. Intercessory prayer is usually for the benefit of someone else. We believe the departed Saints do this for us, and we pray/intercede for the departed to receive mercy on judgement day as well. It's really nice to be joined in the bond of goodwill with the heavenly hosts. It's about loving your neighbor, and recieving their love, which all has its origin in Christ's love for and in them. And I don't think Scripture says that the departed are further away than the far reaches of space as someone said earlier.

You quote a passage that affirms that "prayer and supplication with thanksgiving" can be "requests" made to God. How does this support your position that the souls of the just made perfect [see Heb. 12:23] are prohibited from perfectly making "requests" of God for the sake of others? Aren't "perfect saints" more concerned about others than themselves, just like Christ? I've never gotten a straight evangelical answer to the questions raised by Heb. 12:22-24; perhaps you'll be the first? That would be quite refreshing for a change.

[quote:a406d]quote:
The requests are to be to God and no one else. If you do something that Scripture doesn't specifically say to do - i.e. - ask dead saints to pray for you

Our Lord already conquered death. There is no such thing as a "dead saint." [/quote:a406d]

"[quote:a406d]Ok, then its not "praying" to the saints, its asking them to intercede"

Me: NO:
THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD.

Intercession = Our Savior.

Grace and Peace

I think what you mean is Mediator = Our Savior and this is true (Tim. 2:5). Mediator however, does not equal Intecessor. If you pray for someone else you are involved in intecessory prayer and if you are saved, you are a saint and if you die here on earth you are still a saint, and you are still alive with Christ and you are aware of what is happening here on earth as Jesus illustrated in 16:20-31. In fact, the rich man in this parable was asking Abraham to intercede on his behalf and on behalf of his relatives that they may not go to hell. Those who have left this world and entered the next seem to be aware of what is happening here and are not disconnected from it.[/quote:a406d]

I thought it would be good to get a quick look at what our brothers and sisters from other sites are saying on this issue, so I popped over to other boards and grabbed some quotes

 

[Heidi]

According to you, then, I should get the credit for how my daughters turn out instead of God. Let's give praise to people for their good deeds instead of to God alone. Then we can increase the pride of man. The devil would sure love that!

First of all, that was beautiful, notapseudonym. It is precisely true that that the Protstants are more obsessed with Mary in a hysterical way then we Catholics are!

Heidi, I'll bet you are proud as punch if your daughters bring home good grades, or do some good deed for some older person, or what ever they may do right. Did God have anyting to do with it? I'm sure He did, especially if you prayed to Him for such the bestowed on your daughters.

But somehow, I think you are twisting around the idea the by praising Mary, we are neglecting praise to God. How can that possibly be, since why we praise Mary is precisely what she did as an instrument of God?

Mary is absolutely nothing if it were not for God, and if it were not that she was chosen to be the mother of His Divine Son.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

Pride is a sin. Remember? You have just indicated that you enjoy pride, Confusion.

Exactly. And since she is an instrument of God just like all of his believers, God should get the credit. But not according to catholics. It's Mary they praise! Therefore they give human beings the credit for what human beings do. They raise her above other people just like they do Christ. No wonder I've heard many catholics ask Mary for forgivness for their sins! When did she die for the sins of humanity? What did she do that other mothers didn't? She can't even take credit for the conception of Christ!

 

[Confusion]

Pride is a sin. Remember? You have just indicated that you enjoy pride, Confusion.

You might want to fully read the post and who posted it... *cough*

 

[William Putnam]

Pride is a sin. Remember? You have just indicated that you enjoy pride, Confusion.

That you are not to be proud of your own children when they do good?

Are you serious, Heidi? There is a natural good side of being "proud" of the accomplishments of others against self-pride, the biblical "pride" that is sinful and destructive, and I thought you would know the difference, heidi.

Exactly. And since she is an instrument of God just like all of his believers, God should get the credit. But not according to catholics. It's Mary they praise! Therefore they give human beings the credit for what human beings do. They raise her above other people just like they do Christ. No wonder I've heard many catholics ask Mary for forgivness for their sins! When did she die for the sins of humanity? What did she do that other mothers didn't? She can't even take credit for the conception of Christ!

Heidi, you actually trivialize the awesome choice God made that Mary would be the very mother of Jesus, His Divine Son?

You are paranoid, Heidi, pure and simple! Paranoid of the honor and respect we Catholics give to the mother of Jesus that has you jumping up and down in pure hysterics! Do you actually think I go the the "temple" that is my church and have me burn incense to the goddess Mary as I grovel before her image, others around me going ahummmmm, ahummmmm in their chanting? <I'm being silly now...>

Look at the Holy Rosary, all fifteen mysteries of the complete rosary, and notice the various scenes we contemplate at each "mystery" - the Visitation where the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she is to be the mother of Jesus, or the Resurrection. where we contemplate the risen Lord on the third day, or The scouraging at the pillar, where Our Lord is so terribly beaten and most of the others, and note that the contemplation is about Our Lord, NOT His Mother! There are only two mysteries that are specifically about Mary, her Assumption into heaven, and her crowning as Queen of Heaven (which probably has you really jumping up and down in hysterics.)

Get over it, Heidi!

God bless,

PAX

LIFE
Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it.

- Mother Teresa

 

[William Putnam]

Pride is a sin. Remember? You have just indicated that you enjoy pride, Confusion.

You might want to fully read the post and who posted it... *cough*

We are all jumping on her at the same time, thus she is "confused."

I've done the same thing... :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages
call me blessed. (Luke 1:46-48)

Do you call her "blessed"?

 

[notapseudonym]

Just a little correction, William Putnam said the visitation is when the angel told Mary she would have Jesus, theis is the annunciation. The visitation is when Mary visits Elizabeth and the babe leaps in her womb.

So if no one can claim any credit for anything and God must recieve all credit........
(visitor in an art museum) This is a lovely painting, the painter must have been a master -- who painted it?
(museum expert) God
(visitor) and this one?
(museum expert) God

Or should it be that they say Divinci, after all it is he and not God who stroked the canvas with the brush?

 

[Heidi]

Pride is a sin. Remember? You have just indicated that you enjoy pride, Confusion.

That you are not to be proud of your own children when they do good?

Are you serious, Heidi? There is a natural good side of being "proud" of the accomplishments of others against self-pride, the biblical "pride" that is sinful and destructive, and I thought you would know the difference, heidi.

Exactly. And since she is an instrument of God just like all of his believers, God should get the credit. But not according to catholics. It's Mary they praise! Therefore they give human beings the credit for what human beings do. They raise her above other people just like they do Christ. No wonder I've heard many catholics ask Mary for forgivness for their sins! When did she die for the sins of humanity? What did she do that other mothers didn't? She can't even take credit for the conception of Christ!

Heidi, you actually trivialize the awesome choice God made that Mary would be the very mother of Jesus, His Divine Son?

You are paranoid, Heidi, pure and simple! Paranoid of the honor and respect we Catholics give to the mother of Jesus that has you jumping up and down in pure hysterics! Do you actually think I go the the "temple" that is my church and have me burn incense to the goddess Mary as I grovel before her image, others around me going ahummmmm, ahummmmm in their chanting? <I'm being silly now...>

Look at the Holy Rosary, all fifteen mysteries of the complete rosary, and notice the various scenes we contemplate at each "mystery" - the Visitation where the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she is to be the mother of Jesus, or the Resurrection. where we contemplate the risen Lord on the third day, or The scouraging at the pillar, where Our Lord is so terribly beaten and most of the others, and note that the contemplation is about Our Lord, NOT His Mother! There are only two mysteries that are specifically about Mary, her Assumption into heaven, and her crowning as Queen of Heaven (which probably has you really jumping up and down in hysterics.)

Get over it, Heidi!

God bless,

PAX

LIFE
Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it.

- Mother Teresa

Taking pride in someone else's accomplishments is giving credit to ourselves for what they do! That is not only pride, which is a sin, but selfish as well! I can be tremendously happy for my daughters when they're happy, but nothing can be more selfish than wanting credit for someone else's achievements! You have a lot to learn about genuine love and humility, Bill.

 

[William Putnam]

Just a little correction, William Putnam said the visitation is when the angel told Mary she would have Jesus, theis is the annunciation. The visitation is when Mary visits Elizabeth and the babe leaps in her womb.

So if no one can claim any credit for anything and God must recieve all credit........
(visitor in an art museum) This is a lovely painting, the painter must have been a master -- who painted it?
(museum expert) God
(visitor) and this one?
(museum expert) God

Or should it be that they say Divinci, after all it is he and not God who stroked the canvas with the brush?

Correction noted.

Interestingly, both the Annunciation and the Visitation mysteries are about Mary, but only as her being an instrument of God, which was to bring froth the Divine Son.

Good analogy, notapseudonym, never give credit to the human painter of the art!

You guys have Heidi so boxed-up into a corner, she will never get out!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

[William Putnam]

Taking pride in someone else's accomplishments is giving credit to ourselves for what they do! That is not only pride, which is a sin, but selfish as well! I can be tremendously happy for my daughters when they're happy, but nothing can be more selfish than wanting credit for someone else's achievements! You have a lot to learn about genuine love and humility, Bill.

Therefore, I should never take pride in my granddaughters schooastic accompishments, I suppose, even if she does become validictorian of her high school. Sorry, I puff out my chest in pride for this girl! And there is not a thing wrong with it, Heidi!

But when I think I am superior to others in my "closeness to God" in any way, watch out, I am in grave danger! In other words, if my pride is of myself and my accomplishments, there is where the sin is...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

Special English translation just for Heidi:

Queen of Angels, pray for us!

(A part of the Litany of the Saints.)

 

[sadiebelle]

Exactly. And since she is an instrument of God just like all of his believers, God should get the credit. But not according to catholics. It's Mary they praise! Therefore they give human beings the credit for what human beings do. They raise her above other people just like they do Christ. No wonder I've heard many catholics ask Mary for forgivness for their sins! When did she die for the sins of humanity? What did she do that other mothers didn't? She can't even take credit for the conception of Christ!

Heidi,
There is nothing wrong with admiring Mary or calling her blessed. In you efforts to argue the veneration of Mary, you are actually being very insulting and downplaying her role in the salvational plan. God chose her among countless other virgins before the foundations of time. If I was carrying baby Jesus in my womb, I'd feel special. If I were Elizabeth, I'd tell Mary how special she is.
Where the whole thing gets twisted is making statues of her and praying to her and all that other business, so I understand where you're coming from. I just think you need to step back a little and be cautious about how you're presenting your reasons.
There's nothing wrong with lifting up strong believers in the Bible and learning from their faithfulness and obedience. It would be so difficult, as a mother, to see your son being beaten beyong recognition and hanging on a sinner's cross. I admire Mary for keeping her wits about her and restraining herself from becoming insane with grief. We don't see Mary losing control and trying to get Christ off the cross or hitting the Roman gaurds or screaming crazy things--she was very submissive to the plan of God.

 

[Steve]

I used to pray TO Mary, when I was Orthodox AND RC

For the Orthodox: Presvyataya Bohorodice, spasi nas
Holy Birthgiver of God, save us

O Blessed Theotokos, open the doors of mercy to us...for you are the salvation of the Christian people.

For RC's:
O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners. And for this end he has made thee so powerful, so rich and so boutiful so that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who put their trust in thee. Come to my aid, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants, take me under thy protection and it is enough for me. For if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing: not from my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, for thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge, for by one prayer from thee, He will be appeased. Grant me therefore the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Now, to me, that was praying TO Mary.

I don't need that anymore. Besides that, all these people praying to Mary around the world night and day, how does she hear everybody at all times? Only GOD can do that.

Unless Mary is omnipresent and omniscient, that is.

 

[Julian Pyke]

I have not read any posts but the one above me. Is that why Catholics pray to Mary? I'm sorry but I am just confused about it all, why do Catholics pray to Mary?

 

[CatholicXian]

I have not read any posts but the one above me. Is that why Catholics pray to Mary? I'm sorry but I am just confused about it all, why do Catholics pray to Mary?

You ought to read the rest of the thread to get the context. Context and intent is gravely important to understanding the intrecessory prayer of Mary and the Saints in Heaven.

 

[Heidi]

Taking pride in someone else's accomplishments is giving credit to ourselves for what they do! That is not only pride, which is a sin, but selfish as well! I can be tremendously happy for my daughters when they're happy, but nothing can be more selfish than wanting credit for someone else's achievements! You have a lot to learn about genuine love and humility, Bill.

Therefore, I should never take pride in my granddaughters schooastic accompishments, I suppose, even if she does become validictorian of her high school. Sorry, I puff out my chest in pride for this girl! And there is not a thing wrong with it, Heidi!

But when I think I am superior to others in my "closeness to God" in any way, watch out, I am in grave danger! In other words, if my pride is of myself and my accomplishments, there is where the sin is...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

Special English translation just for Heidi:

Queen of Angels, pray for us!

(A part of the Litany of the Saints.)

Sorry, but I don't take credit for other people's accompishments. You can if you like. Pumping oneself up is the sin of pride. You should read the bible instead of the RCC doctrine and you'll see what Paul says about boasting. Again, I'm enormously happy for people when they're happy! :angel:

 

[William Putnam]

Sorry, but I don't take credit for other people's accompishments. You can if you like. Pumping oneself up is the sin of pride. You should read the bible instead of the RCC doctrine and you'll see what Paul says about boasting. Again, I'm enormously happy for people when they're happy! :angel:

Huh? Because I am proud of a granddaughter because of her accomplishments, you think I am taking credit?

In my previous message, what did I say about taking pride in one's own accomplishments? What did I say about thinking one is better then another?

Heidi, read my lips - PRIDE IN ONE'S SELF is where the sin lies.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Prayer for Peace by Pope John Paul II

O God, Creator of the universe, who extends your paternal concern over every
creature and guides the events of history in the goal of salvation, we acknowledge
your fatherly love when you break the resistance of mankind and, in a world torn
by strife and discord, you make us ready for reconciliation. Renew for us the
wonders of your mercy: send forth your Spirit that He may work in the intimacy
of hearts, that enemies may begin to dialogue, that adversaries may shake hands
and peoples may encounter one another in harmony. May all commit themselves to the
sincere search for true peace which will extinguish all arguments, for charity
which overcomes hatred, for pardon which disarms revenge. Amen.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but I don't take credit for other people's accompishments. You can if you like. Pumping oneself up is the sin of pride. You should read the bible instead of the RCC doctrine and you'll see what Paul says about boasting. Again, I'm enormously happy for people when they're happy! :angel:

Huh? Because I am proud of a granddaughter because of her accomplishments, you think I am taking credit?

In my previous message, what did I say about taking pride in one's own accomplishments? What did I say about thinking one is better then another?

Heidi, read my lips - PRIDE IN ONE'S SELF is where the sin lies.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Prayer for Peace by Pope John Paul II

O God, Creator of the universe, who extends your paternal concern over every
creature and guides the events of history in the goal of salvation, we acknowledge
your fatherly love when you break the resistance of mankind and, in a world torn
by strife and discord, you make us ready for reconciliation. Renew for us the
wonders of your mercy: send forth your Spirit that He may work in the intimacy
of hearts, that enemies may begin to dialogue, that adversaries may shake hands
and peoples may encounter one another in harmony. May all commit themselves to the
sincere search for true peace which will extinguish all arguments, for charity
which overcomes hatred, for pardon which disarms revenge. Amen.

Taking credit for anything good in oneself, including what you did to enable your granddaughter to do anything is called pride. How can I be proud of anything?How can I be proud of what my neighbor does????Everything good I do comes from God, not me. And this pride is the greatest sin of the catholic church! There can hardly be anything more arrogant than to call someone or be called "Our Holy Father." Nothing. That is again why Jesus said not to be called or to call anyone 'father'. But the RCC worships and prays to people. That is again, what all pagans do. How is that my fault????? :o

Homosexuals also think we hate them instead of their sin. But nothingcould be further from the truth. It is therefore, crystal clear that you don't know what "hate the sin, not the sinner" means either.

 

[William Putnam]

Sorry, but I don't take credit for other people's accompishments. You can if you like. Pumping oneself up is the sin of pride. You should read the bible instead of the RCC doctrine and you'll see what Paul says about boasting. Again, I'm enormously happy for people when they're happy! :angel:

Huh? Because I am proud of a granddaughter because of her accomplishments, you think I am taking credit?

In my previous message, what did I say about taking pride in one's own accomplishments? What did I say about thinking one is better then another?

Heidi, read my lips - PRIDE IN ONE'S SELF is where the sin lies.

Taking credit for anything good in oneself, including what you did to enable your granddaughter to do anything is called pride. How can I be proud of anything?How can I be proud of what my neighbor does????Everything good I do comes from God, not me. And this pride is the greatest sin of the catholic church! There can hardly be anything more arrogant than to call someone or be called "Our Holy Father." Nothing. That is again why Jesus said not to be called or to call anyone 'father'. But the RCC worships and prays to people. That is again, what all pagans do. How is that my fault????? :o

<Sigh!> Where am I going wrong with you, Heidi?

I did nothing to "enable" my granddaughter, other then to give her simple encouragement to do good work. She did! I'm proud of her!

I would be proud of my neighbor is he/she did something good for someone else. That is not pride in one's self, Heidi.

Homosexuals also think we hate them instead of their sin. But nothingcould be further from the truth. It is therefore, crystal clear that you don't know what "hate the sin, not the sinner" means either.

I have absolutely no idea why you even brought that up in this reply. ..

:smt102

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



- Anima Christi -

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me.
Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
O good Jesus, hear me;
Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
me not to be separated from Thee.
From the Wicked Foe defend me.
And bid me to come to Thee,
That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
For ever and ever. Amen.