To those who pray to Mary...

[Orthodox Christian]

Confusion: here is the link to the site that you used. It's a good site, with a good intent- "building bridges."
http://davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_do_c ... to_her.htm

Of course, no matter how many bridges that we build, there will alwys be trolls that wish to live under the bridge and attack and impede those who wish to pass over.

 

[Gary]

Thanks Confusion... good site!

 

[Confusion]

Confusion: here is the link to the site that you used. It's a good site, with a good intent- "building bridges."
http://davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_do_c ... to_her.htm

Of course, no matter how many bridges that we build, there will alwys be trolls that wish to live under the bridge and attack and impede those who wish to pass over.

Thanks.

I got the first name right, yay :angel:

Though I do find humor in everyone really arguing aren't really current catholics... yet claim that they know what catholics do and believe... though only God knows that *cough*Gary*cough*

 

[Gary]

Actually, I go to Mass several times a year Confusion. Do you?

 

[Confusion]

Actually, I go to Mass several times a year Confusion. Do you?

As I've said, I won't say my beliefs here... Though you have tried to label me...

Honestly... Why do you go to Mass? You got me there... I don't know why.

Though claiming to know what people pray doesn't make you the demonimation... It's claiming your God more so.

 

[Gary]

Actually, I go to Mass several times a year Confusion. Do you?

As I've said, I won't say my beliefs here... Though you have tried to label me...

Honestly... Why do you go to Mass? You got me there... I don't know why.

I have a few family members who are still Roman Catholic. I go to Mass with them but am prohibited from taking communion! It does not really matter to me.... I sit and pray for them during their communion time! I was a Catholic 'till 15/16. You done Cathechism (I think it is called RICA now)?

 

[Confusion]

Sorry, I won't say my religious beliefs or any programs I am in pertaining to my religion.

Though, when you say you are prohibitted from taking communion... May I ask why?

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary...

The point of my post... and indeed most likely my further posts on this topic:

You do not understand what Catholicism means by intercessory prayer. Period.

You can go on and quote the Catechism all you like, but the point still stands... You view intercessory prayer as something that it is not: namely, and act of ultimate worship that ought only be directed to God. This is NOT prayer to Mary or the Saints in Heaven in Catholic understanding. Prayer to Mary/the Saints in Heaven is INTERCESSORY. We ask them to pray with us, and for us to God in Heaven.

As Christians, we are members of the Body of Christ (the Church), are we not? Are not all members of the Body of Christ united by the head: namely, Jesus Christ Himself? Does one cease to be a Christian in Heaven? In Heaven, is one cut off from the Body of the Christ?


Thus, Gary, I still contend that the burden of proof is on YOU to show why intercessory prayer ceases in Heaven... how are those in Heaven cut off from the Body of Christ?... because I don't believe that Scripture suggests that they are.

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian... all I have been asking for is examples of prayers to Mary. You are trying to define the type of prayer to Mary. I say that there are no examples of any prayers to any saints who have departed this earth.

 

[Gary]

Though, when you say you are prohibitted from taking communion... May I ask why?

Read CCC # 1400-1401.

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary,

Intercessory prayer is scattered all throughout the Scriptures! The point is that asking those in Heaven for prayers IS THE SAME by way of mediation and intercession as asking those on earth to pray for us. You suggest the difference is "death" (I point to Mark 12:27)-- and also question how one is suddenly "cut off" from the Body of Christ in Heaven, which you have yet to answer.

You also have claimed when you ask a friend on earth to pray for you, they can respond-- however, can you be guaranteed of their prayers? No, you have faith, and TRUST that your friend will pray for you if he says so, or you TRUST that he is sincere if the two of you pray together. But you cannot know his heart or his intentions-- you can be decently sure, but you can't have clear-cut evidence of his prayer or intentions.

When I ask Mary and those in Heaven to pray for me, do I hear an audible response that others around me might hear? No. Does it matter? No, because I TRUST and have FAITH in the nature of the of the Body of Christ and the Church that my prayers will be heard, and that those in Heaven might intercede on my behalf. I don't NEED to hear a response. I have faith. Again, you have given NO REASON to believe that intercessory prayer ceases in Heaven, or ANY REASON that members of the Body of Christ are "cut off" from each other--the Church is not restricted by earthly bounds, nor is it merely confined to Heaven. The grace and power of God through the Holy Spirit is amazing and FAR reaching. Thanks be to Christ who has bridged the gap between God and man! It is through His one, perfect mediation to the Father that all Christians can become (secondary and subordinate) mediators for one another and intercede for each other!

 

[Gary]

When I ask Mary and those in Heaven to pray for me....

You pray to Mary. You pray to saints in heaven.

You do not pray to people still living on this earth.

That is the difference. You try to avoid the issue by saying that you "ask" Mary. But I believe that it is not true. You are praying to Mary.

Nowhere in Scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God. In all of Scripture there is not a single divinely approved instance of a righteous person praying to a departed believer.

The contention that asking a deceased believer to intercede on our behalf is no different from asking a friend here on earth to pray for us is an unsubstantiated claim. There are substantial differences. One is in heaven and the other is on earth. Also, there is a huge difference between asking an earthly friend to pray for us and praying to a departed friend! Friends on earth are in the body and have senses by which they can get our message, friends in heaven do not: they do not have a physical body (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23 Revelation 6:9).

.

 

[CatholicXian]

From Webster's dictionary:

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE -- often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Thus, in the sense of prayer to Mary and the Saints in Heaven, "ask" is a very appropriate defintion, and thus my substitution is justified and I was not "avoiding the issue" as you assert.

The contention that asking a deceased believer to intercede on our behalf is no different from asking a friend here on earth to pray for us is an unsubstantiated claim. There are substantial differences. One is in heaven and the other is on earth. Also, there is a huge difference between asking an earthly friend to pray for us and praying to a departed friend! Friends on earth are in the body and have senses by which they can get our message, friends in heaven do not: they do not have a physical body (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23 Revelation 6:9).

Substantial differences? Not having a body when a soul is in the presence of the One who is Omniscient, Omnipotent, etc. (i.e., the ability to give anyone the capacity to do whatever He wills them to do) makes a difference now? Suddenly, because they have no body they are cast off from the body of Christ? They "need" a body to be a part of the Church, to participate in the prayer of the Church? Such a claim as that, is one that I would find unsubstantiated.
Again, Gary, I ask, why would intercessory prayer cease in Heaven? Where are we given such indications that it would? Why are members of the Body of Christ cut off from one another because one Christian has passed on to the eternal embrace of the Father?

 

[Gary]

Intercessory prayer is scattered all throughout the Scriptures! The point is that asking those in Heaven for prayers IS THE SAME by way of mediation and intercession as asking those on earth to pray for us.

No, it is not the same. You keep using the word "ask" while you know that Roman Catholics PRAY to departed saints and Mary. Even the CCC uses the words "pray to" Mary.

You suggest the difference is "death" (I point to Mark 12:27)-- and also question how one is suddenly "cut off" from the Body of Christ in Heaven, which you have yet to answer.

Yes. I can prove that. You will again complain if I copy-paste. But you also complain if I copy-paste only a section. So tough... you are going to get it all. You keep claiming that I have not answered this.... so here goes!

Let’s consider now the speculative argument proposed by the RCC that since

• (1) the church is Christ’s body and
  (2) Christ has only one body, and
  (3) death does not separate us from other members in it, and since
  (4) we have an obligation to love and serve others,
  (5) we must continue to ask them for help, even after they die.

From a biblical perspective, there are several serious problems with this argument, a few of which will be briefly mentioned here. While a Protestant/Evangelical has no objection to the first premise, there are serious objections to the others.

The second premise ((2) Christ has only one body), while true, can be easily misconstrued. For example, just because there is only one body does not mean there is no real distinction between the visible and invisible dimensions of it. Likewise, it does not mean that our duties of love to each dimension can be performed in the same way. For example, I cannot (and need not) perform my duty to physically care for my departed father and mother now as I could and should were they living on earth. Nor can I perform my duty to engage in friendly conversation with a departed friend, since he is in the invisible realm, and such conversations are not possible. Likewise, prayer cannot (and should not) occur between the living and the dead.

The third premise ((3) death does not separate us from other members in it), is flatly false. According to the Bible, this is precisely what death is, namely, separation from others, including believers. Paul speaks of the dead as being “away†from the visible bodily realm (2 Corinthians 5:6). In Philippians 1:23 he says the dead “depart†from this world. Paul comforted the bereaved Christians at Thessalonica, assuring them that they would be “with them†again when Christ returns (1 Thessalonians 4:17). It is simply false to claim that we are not separated from other believers at death. With that separation comes some real differences, such as no longer being able to speak to them.

The fourth premise of the argument ((4) we have an obligation to love and serve others ) is not true, at least in one of its major implications. For while we must love and serve one another, we should not (and cannot) always do so the same way. Even on earth, when a loved one is not available, I cannot speak with them. According to Scripture, the dead are unavailable to the living until the second coming (Luke 16:26).

Finally, there are several other mistakes made in this argument.

(a) The assumption that because God has revealed to the dead some things that transpire on earth (e.g., Luke 15:10) they therefore can hear us if we speak to them (or know our mind if we pray silently).

(b) The highly debatable assumption that true prayer and asking another are the same. In fact, there is no real biblical support for this assumption, since prayer is always to God in the Bible and never to any creature, even an angel. While prayer is not identical to worship, it is part of it, and worship should always be directed to God.

(c) There is the invalid inference that because the saints in heaven may be praying for us (Revelation 6:10) that we should be praying to them. There is no logical connection between the two since they would be praying to God, not a creature. So, if anything, this would prove just the opposite of what Roman Catholics believe. Namely, that this is what we should do too.

(d) Finally, there is a false analogy used, namely, that since Jesus’ mother on earth interceded to him at the wedding that believers on earth should have Mary intercede to God in heaven on their behalf. As the underlined words reveal, there are significant differences between them, to say nothing of the part that in the text even Mary pointed them to Jesus, saying, “Do whatever he tells you†(John 2:5).

Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and differences (Page 348).

 

[Confusion]

I think i finally got the problem between all religions... We all have to much opinions and interpret things way to differently :angel:

 

[CatholicXian]

Speaking of "second bibles"…

Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals : Agreements and differences ([insert page number here]).

No, it is not the same. You keep using the word "ask" while you know that Roman Catholics PRAY to departed saints and Mary. Even the CCC uses the words "pray to" Mary.

I keep using ask? Au contraire, I only recently changed my wording because of the way in which you continue to define prayer. You keep insisting that prayer has a designated meaning excluding the alternative that even Webster's Dictionary offers, thus, if you are going to continue to define prayer other than as I highlighted for you from Webster's, I have no choice but use a better suited word.
Yes, the Catechism says "pray to"â€â€heck, I even said "pray to"… but it is YOU who refuse to see that "pray" has more than one meaning and the meaning in which you want to give it, is NOT the meaning for which it is intended when speaking of those in Heaven.

Example of what I mean when I suggest you misunderstand the Catholic notion of intercessory prayer:

The highly debatable assumption that true prayer and asking another are the same. In fact, there is no real biblical support for this assumption, since prayer is always to God in the Bible and never to any creature, even an angel. While prayer is not identical to worship, it is part of it, and worship should always be directed to God.

Here again, you STILL keep using prayer in a sense in which it is NOT meant when in reference to those in Heaven.

Likewise, prayer cannot (and should not) occur between the living and the dead.

But then what of Mark 12:27? Is God not a "God of the living and not of the dead"?

Intercessory Prayer to the Saints in Heaven is not necromancy. Catholics are not "conjuring up" the spirits of the dead, we are seeking prayers on our behalf to God.

I agree that there is a real distinction between the visible and the invisible of the Church, and I agree that our duties cannot be fulfilled in the same mannerâ€â€but our duties do not change completely. The Commandment to honor your father and mother existed while they were alive on earth, do you not also continue to honor them in death? You loved your parents as well, do you not also continue to love them now? Your parents loved you while they were alive on earth, do they suddenly cease to love you because they are in the eternal rest of God? That wouldn't seem to make any sense to me, Gary. Regardless of in what manner we fulfill our duties, the fact of the matter remains that we still fulfill our dutiesâ€â€only perhaps in different manners, or capacities.

Also, I wonder… would you not include it as a part of the nature of the Church to pray and to pray for others? If a Christian is called on earth to pray and pray for others, why would this suddenly cease in the presence of God? Once a soul enters Heaven, do they suddenly turn completely selfish and self seeking and completely forget about those they loved on earth to find rest in God? Would not that be a contradiction of Who God is as Love? One would think that prayer and love of others would be PERFECTED in Heaven, not abolished!

According to the Bible, this is precisely what death is, namely, separation from others

So the Body of Christ is separated? The Body has breaks?
In death, all community is done away with? What happened to God's being a community of three persons?
Gary, of course and obviously there is a sense of separation in deathâ€â€but it not a separation from Christ nor the Church! That doesn't make sense. Even Scripturally.

Lastly on this "premise"â€â€of course we can no longer "carry on conversations" as we do on earth with the Saints in Heaven… again, this is why I really do think you misunderstand very deeply the Catholic notion of intercessory prayer. Let's not get ridiculous, the Saints in Heaven are not like ghost-people wandering around waiting for someone to talk toâ€â€they are in Heaven, beholding the blessed vision of God, participating in His Divine Love!

And now to your last "premise"

According to Scripture, the dead are unavailable to the living until the second coming (Luke 16:26).

Oh please! Gary of course those in Hell are unavailable! The very Scripture passage you citeâ€â€the rich man sent to Hell who wants his brothers to be warnedâ€â€is speaking about the great chasm between Heaven and Hell!
I most definitely find problems with THIS premise!

The assumption that because God has revealed to the dead some things that transpire on earth (e.g., Luke 15:10) they therefore can hear us if we speak to them (or know our mind if we pray silently).

An interesting question then, since you brought up Luke 15:10â€â€and thus are willing to suggest that the angels are aware of earthly events, do you also object to seeking the intercession of angels?
I'd still be interested in understanding why it is you think that God would "cut off" so to speak, those in Heaven from knowledge of earthly events?

There is the invalid inference that because the saints in heaven may be praying for us (Revelation 6:10) that we should be praying to them. There is no logical connection between the two since they would be praying to God, not a creature. So, if anything, this would prove just the opposite of what Roman Catholics believe. Namely, that this is what we should do too.

At least here are you willing to admit that prayer in Heaven is possible! I was beginning to worry!
However, here still in reference to our prayers to the Saints you are using the word "prayer" with a very exclusive meaning that does not hold for the intercessory prayer of the Saints in Heaven. I really do suggest looking up Saint Thomas Aquinas' "latria" & "dulia" distinctionsâ€â€you might find them helpful if you would truly sit down and give them some thought.

Finally, there is a false analogy used, namely, that since Jesus’ mother on earth interceded to him at the wedding that believers on earth should have Mary intercede to God in heaven on their behalf. As the underlined words reveal, there are significant differences between them, to say nothing of the part that in the text even Mary pointed them to Jesus, saying, “Do whatever he tells you†(John 2:5).

Well, at least now I am somewhat relieved it seems you have been reading more closely some of my posts!
However, your premise is still insisting upon the division of the Body of Christâ€â€yes, we may be divided in "space & time" (namely, in our being confined to it on earth), but we are all united in Christ.



And thus, for the time being, I am off to bed, then off to Mass, then off to studying… should I choose a study break tomorrow it will most likely be rather brief, I have a LOT of reading to do!

 

[Gary]

I think i finally got the problem between all religions... We all have to much opinions and interpret things way to differently :angel:

This is a debate between denominations.... or at least, Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholic. In Christianity, they are different denominations.

The "problem" between religions would be classified as differences between, for instance, Islam and Christianity.

.

 

[Gary]

Prayer to Mary/the Saints in Heaven is INTERCESSORY. We ask them to pray with us, and for us to God in Heaven.

That was your comment some time ago. You introduced the concept of "ask" rather than "prayer." I will keep using the word "prayer" because it is what the issue is about.

On earth, you will have to agree that we only ask our friend to pray for us. OK? We never pray to our friend. Do you agree?

Now using the same logic that you have tried to use ...... When our friend has departed, we would never pray to our friend.

So, as I have shown some time ago, while our friend is on earth, we
(1) Ask our friend to pray for us (this is also in Scripture)
(2) Our friend may pray for us either because we asked them to or because they wanted to or because of both
(2) We never pray to friends (this is forbidden; several times in Scripture)

When our friend has departed
(1) We cannot ask our friend any longer. According to the Bible, this is precisely what death is, namely, separation from others, including believers. Paul speaks of the dead as being “away†from the visible bodily realm (2 Corinthians 5:6). In Philippians 1:23-24 he says the dead “depart†from this world. "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." If there was communication between those still on earth and those departed, surely Paul would have mentioned it here (or elsewhere!). Paul comforted the bereaved Christians at Thessalonica, assuring them that they would be “with them†again when Christ returns (1 Thessalonians 4:17). It is simply false to claim that we are not separated from other believers at death. With that separation comes some real differences, such as no longer being able to speak to them. IF it was correct to pray TO departed saints, why did Paul not say anything about prayer TO these departed saints? You do know that there is no Scripture supporting prayer to departed saints. Paul did not reference any such scripture; neither did any of the other New Testament writers!
(2) Our friend may still prayer for us, Revelation 6:10 suggests that they do.
(3) Still applies.

.

 

[Heidi]

Prayer connotates worship. Yet the catholics treat Mary exactly the same way they treat God! They exalt her in prayer then talk to her in prayer. So how then do they show more honor to God than they do to human beings? Do they even have a clue why Jesus said not to call anyone on earth 'father'? :o Or do they simply not care what he said? Which is it?

 

[Gary]

Non-Biblical prayers to Mary

CatholicXian claims that prayers to Mary are INTERCESSORY. She is at great pains to try and make this claim.

If that was true, then please explain this traditional prayer to Mary.....

Sub Tuum

• We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God;
  Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers,
  O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen.

Can you not see what is wrong with this prayer? Now Mary (not God) is your protector! You pray to Mary to protect you!

.