To those who pray to Mary...

[Gary]

Non-Biblical prayers to Mary

CatholicXian claims that prayers to Mary are INTERCESSORY. She is at great pains to try and make this claim.

If that was true, then please explain this traditional prayer to Mary.....

Memorare

• Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known
  That any one who fled to your protection, implored your help
  Or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
  Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother.
  To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful;
  O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions,
  But in your clemency hear and answer me. Amen. .

Again, Mary is your protector. I thought God performed that role! You "come" to Mary. Jesus says "Come to Me"; He did not say "Go to Mary."

Roman Catholics pray to Mary and say "hear and answer me." Again my questions are .... how does Mary answer you? What does she say?

.

 

[Gary]

Non-Biblical prayers to Mary

CatholicXian claims that prayers to Mary are INTERCESSORY. She is at great pains to try and make this claim.

If that was true, then please explain this traditional prayer to Mary.....

Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
(Dictated by Our Lady to Jelena Vasilj of Medurgorje, 18 November 1983.)

• O most pure heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you immensely. Impress on our hearts true love so that we may long for you. O Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we sin. You know that all people sin. Grant that through your most pure and motherly heart, we may be healed from every spiritual sickness. Grant that we may always experience the goodness of your motherly heart, and that through the flame of your heart we may be converted. Amen.

Now Mary is the "healer of spiritual sickness!! Mary is your healer. I thought God performed that role!

This "spirit" who claimed to be Mary now wants to "convert you."

CatholicXian, you asked how "Mary" can turn you away from Jesus. Here is a prime example. This so-called spirit claiming to be Mary is taking over God's role, Jesus' role and the Holy Spirit's role!

.

 

[Gary]

Mary or the Holy Spirit as our Helper

CatholicXian claims that prayers to Mary are INTERCESSORY. She is at great pains to try and prove this claim.

If that was true, then please explain this traditional prayer to Mary.....

Mother of Perpetual Help

• Oh Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke your powerful name, the protection of the living and the salvation of the dying. Purest Mary, let your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, Blessed Lady, to rescue me whenever I call on you. In my temptations, in my needs, I will never cease to call on you, ever repeating your sacred name, Mary, Mary. What a consolation, what sweetness, what confidence fills my soul when I utter your sacred name or even only think of your! I thank the Lord for having given you so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely uttering your name. Let my love for your prompt me ever to hail you Mother of Perpetual Help.
  
  Mother of Perpetual Help, pray for me and grant me the favor I confidently ask of you. {mention your petition}

Now Mary is the "protection of the living and the salvation of the dying" I thought the Lord performed that role!

Now the name "Mary" must be on your lips! As James said: "Are they not the ones who are slandering the whole name of Him to whom you belong?" (James 2:7)

CatholicXian, you asked how "Mary" can turn you away from Jesus. Here is another example. Jesus said He would send the Helper, the Counselor, the Comforter. And that was not Mary!

.

 

[Heidi]

And that catholics say they don't worhisp Mary???Another lie. :evil:

The absolute bizarre lengths that catholics have gone to try to justify an unbiblical doctrine is beyond all reason. This is because they think the pope and the RCC have to be right! Why is this? Because they do not see them as human beings. If they did, then they would have no problem seeing errors in the church just as we do with all human beings. But this is what cult members do. They worship the cult leader as if he were God and infallible. And that is why it is so difficult to deprogram cult members and people from the catholic church. And this is what all cults have in common.

But other denominations do not have this problem. The members are free to see the clergy as human beings and certain practices that are not biblical. The clergy of these other denominationas also admit they are sometimes in error because they know they are human beings. This is the humility that comes from the Holy spirit. But the catholic clergy does not have this humility! It has the sin of pride which is not a fruit of the Spirit. The catholics themselves say pride comes from the devil. And this is how I know that the catholic doctrine is from the devil. Most of it is unscriptural and prideful.

 

[Confusion]

I think i finally got the problem between all religions... We all have to much opinions and interpret things way to differently :angel:

This is a debate between denominations.... or at least, Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholic. In Christianity, they are different denominations.

The "problem" between religions would be classified as differences between, for instance, Islam and Christianity.

.

Actually... It's a debate mainly between non and non... Xiao is only one i saw

Hiedi, how bout you? Can I get some scriptures linking the OT to the NT from the OT?

 

[CatholicXian]

1) Where the heck is flood control? Gary, I really don't mind if you make one incredibly long post… it makes it much easier to quote when responding…

2) Medjugorje is a PRIVATE apparition, Gary… one that has NOT BEEN APPROVED by the Church. One would think one would examine such sources before using them… And as well, considering Medjugorje is rather contemporary, I'd hardly consider it a "traditional" prayer of the Church! (and as well, I have been to Medjugorje during a visit to Croatia and Bosnia-Hertzegovinia, and am somewhat skeptical of the apparitions there-- I do not honestly think that they will be approved anytime soon, and would be quite surprised if they were approved at all)

3) You are trying to tell me (and the Church!) what the word "prayer" means… giving it an exclusive definition that DOES NOT MATCH the intention of intercessory prayer to the Saints in Heaven. Prayer to the Saints in Heaven is RADICALLY different in meaning from prayer as an act of worship (latria) to God alone. I have repeated this over and over again many times. YES, Catholics PRAY TO those in Heaven-- but it is a RADICALLY DIFFERENT meaning of PRAYER that than that act of sublime worship reserved only for God.

4) As to your "traditional" prayers to Mary… again, Gary you keep cutting members of the Body of Christ off the Body! You keep separating them from Christ. Mary and the Saints in Heaven are NOTHING without Christ. And our prayers to them are INTERCESSORY. Their prayers are possible only in and through Him-- we are connected through Christ. (continued in next point)

5) For ALL of us (even us on earth) can only first pray because we have been enabled by God to pray! Before we can even lift our hearts in prayer, it is first God that showers us with His grace… indeed to exist, to breathe, to live, and to pray.

Furthermore, half of the prayers you posted are of private devotion, and while not bad in themselves (it depends on one's meaning and intentionsâ€â€as do all prayers!). I will give you credit for the Memorare & Sub Tuum (both of which are some of my personal favorites). The others come from acts of private revelations/devotions, and while perhaps approved by the Church (excepting Medjugorje, of course) they still remain private devotions which the faithful are free to make use of keeping in mind the proper intention of intercessory prayer. If you want to discuss "traditional Marian prayers"… the only solid ones we can fairly choose would be the "Hail, Mary" , "Hail, Holy Queen", "Memorare", and "Sub Tuum".. and perhaps a few other oldies/more oft used ones.

6) Gary, prayer to the Saints in Heaven CANNOT take away from Christ, because it is only through God that such prayers are even possible. All prayer, all life, and indeed every blessing flows forth from God's grace--that is the nature of prayer.

Again, Gary, intercessory prayer is scattered all throughout the Scriptures… on earth and in Heaven (just a sampling from Scripture):
1 Timothy 2: 1-3 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior"

Ephesians 6:18-19 "Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel" (*note: I am not confining the word "saints" in this passage to those in Heaven necessarily, though I don't see why it ought to exclude them, as Christians in the presence of God, they are indeed "saints"â€â€but there is also a sense of the term "saint" for those of us seeking Christ still on earth)

Hebrews 12: 1-2 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run which perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"

Revelation 8: 3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

And then just because I find these verses interesting:
Hebrews 12: 22-24 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel." (notice all who are included)

 

[Gary]

I don't like your incredibly long posts... I prefer a few short ones!

Anyway, there is very little I need to respond to. I have clearly shown you several prayers to Mary which obviously are prayed by Roman Catholics which are not intercessory and which do take the focus away from Jesus. You can protest as much as you like. These prayers are prayed by Roman Catholics. They are non-Biblical and take the focus off Jesus.

I have shown you what is wrong with Memorare, Sub Tuum and Mother of Perpetual Help. You have not responded to what I posted about each prayer.

So to make this one long post, I will re-post them again.

You claim that prayers to Mary are INTERCESSORY. You are at great pains to try and prove this claim.

If that was true, then please explain these prayers to Mary which Roman Catholics pray.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Sub Tuum

• We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God;
  Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers,
  O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen.

Can you not see what is wrong with this prayer? Now Mary (not God) is your protector! You pray to Mary to protect you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) Memorare

• Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known
  That any one who fled to your protection, implored your help
  Or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
  Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother.
  To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful;
  O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions,
  But in your clemency hear and answer me. Amen. .

Again, Mary is your protector. I thought God performed that role! You "come" to Mary. Jesus says "Come to Me"; He did not say "Go to Mary."

Roman Catholics pray to Mary and say "hear and answer me." Again my questions are .... how does Mary answer you? What does she say?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(3) Mother of Perpetual Help

• Oh Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke your powerful name, the protection of the living and the salvation of the dying. Purest Mary, let your name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, Blessed Lady, to rescue me whenever I call on you. In my temptations, in my needs, I will never cease to call on you, ever repeating your sacred name, Mary, Mary. What a consolation, what sweetness, what confidence fills my soul when I utter your sacred name or even only think of your! I thank the Lord for having given you so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely uttering your name. Let my love for your prompt me ever to hail you Mother of Perpetual Help.
  
  Mother of Perpetual Help, pray for me and grant me the favor I confidently ask of you. {mention your petition}

Now Mary is the "protection of the living and the salvation of the dying" I thought the Lord performed that role!

Now the name "Mary" must be on your lips! As James said: "Are they not the ones who are slandering the whole name of Him to whom you belong?" (James 2:7)

CatholicXian, you asked how "Mary" can turn you away from Jesus. Here is another example. Jesus said He would send the Helper, the Counselor, the Comforter. And that was not Mary!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could show you many more prayers like these above. But these should be enough to prove my points. You have yet to show me a single prayer in the Bible prayed to departed saints.

.

 

[notapseudonym]

The only point that has been proven to me is that you are incredibaly ignorrant of Catholic teaching. Before we condemn all Cathlics to Hell shouldn't we all find out and study, in depth, what and why the Catholic Church teaches what she teaches? If we don't do this research and just say all Catholics are evil, Jesus hating, MAry following people, then we must admit that we are guilty of Rash Judgement.

 

[Gary]

Fine. I notice you are a Roman Catholic. Maybe you can answer the objections which I have to these prayers to Mary. They are in the post above yours.

Thanks.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Ahh, yes, the appeal to reason and thoughtfulness- well done, notapseudynym.

Sadly, your plaintive request will be again ignored as the herd stampedes toward another iconic target- some element of Catholic theology or praxis. After all, none of this is about reason, or learning, or understanding. No, rather, it's religious 'flaming' at its most mundane. I've seen more humane concern on atheist boards and better insults in newsgroups.

It's like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" in here- as soon as they realize you'r not one of them, the cry goes up to attack. Fortunately, there are Protestants here who think for themselves- and just watch the feeding frenzy that occurs when they voice opinions not in step with the anti-Catholic talking points.

I walked through the parking lot at my parish last Sunday- and side-by-side were cars with bumper stickers -"Support President Bush" on one, and "Dump Bush" on the other. It's nice that people think for themselves, and don't get disfellowshipped on the basis of how they vote.

 

[CatholicXian]

Fine. I notice you are a Roman Catholic. Maybe you can answer the objections which I have to these prayers to Mary. They are in the post above yours.

Gary you're never going to be satisfied with the "Catholic" answer, because you insist on limiting words to only one definition to the exclusion of all others (i.e., "prayer can ONLY mean this"). You've already made up your mind about Marian prayer and devotion and no matter of explaining or attempted dialogue will make any difference.
Forget if the Catholic Church teaches that all depends on Christ, that the Saints are a part of the Body of Christ (the Church)... you will still tear apart the Body of Christ and separate the Saints in Heaven in such a way that any thought of them MUST be to the exlusion of Christ, and thus Catholics somehow "forget" or "ignore" Christ in their prayers.

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian, I think that says it all. IF you did have an answer to the objections I have raised, I am sure you would have put forward that rebuttal specific to the prayer I have shown you.

If you did have ANY example of ANY New Testament saint praying to Mary, I am sure you would have already produced it.

I rest my case. The other personal attacks only show that all three of you are now void of valid arguments.

Jesus was right. Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

I defend Jesus and you try to insult and mock me. Thanks for the blessing! I am honored to be mocked because I defend Him.

Q.E.D.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I take pretty care of myself, and at 42, I may live another 50 years. That being said, as long as I live, should it be 500 more years, I will never understand how catcalling another person's faith tradition, shouting them down when they clarify, and invoking all sorts of anathemas against them qualifies the individual(s) leveling the accusations as the "persecuted."

Nor do I understand how it is "point demonstrated" when one simply says "no you don't" or "yes you do" in response to attempts to clarify points of dissention. This QED assertion would get laughed right out of any reputable forum.

Gary's logic here, such as it is, completely escapes me- and I am a trained researcher and an experienced programmer analyst- so I generally 'get the point.'

I see this odd pick a fight/claim persecution complex among some of the SDAs, who seem to be under the impression that Rome is persecuting them- apparently in some secret manner, since all I ever see is the SDAs going on about how Rome is the antiChrist.

But by all means, Gary Bee, recuse yourself so that you may devote your energy to telling the Muslims how they're wrong.

Gourdspeed.

 

[Gary]

More blessings..... thanks :bday:

 

[Heidi]

I take pretty care of myself, and at 42, I may live another 50 years. That being said, as long as I live, should it be 500 more years, I will never understand how catcalling another person's faith tradition, shouting them down when they clarify, and invoking all sorts of anathemas against them qualifies the individual(s) leveling the accusations as the "persecuted."

Nor do I understand how it is "point demonstrated" when one simply says "no you don't" or "yes you do" in response to attempts to clarify points of dissention. This QED assertion would get laughed right out of any reputable forum.

Gary's logic here, such as it is, completely escapes me- and I am a trained researcher and an experienced programmer analyst- so I generally 'get the point.'

I see this odd pick a fight/claim persecution complex among some of the SDAs, who seem to be under the impression that Rome is persecuting them- apparently in some secret manner, since all I ever see is the SDAs going on about how Rome is the antiChrist.

But by all means, Gary Bee, recuse yourself so that you may devote your energy to telling the Muslims how they're wrong.

Gourdspeed.

If you seek tradition over truth, how can you ever grow in Christ? :o You're then at the same spiritual maturity level you were when you first heard what the tradition was, are you not? In that case, you might as well throw out the bible because you can never learn anything from it. ;-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

If you seek tradition over truth, how can you ever grow in Christ? You're then at the same spiritual maturity level you were when you first heard what the tradition was, are you not? In that case, you might as well throw out the bible because you can never learn anything from it.

I seek truth through tradition. So does everyone- no one reads scripture devoid of influence. I seek truth in my reading of scripture, to such an extent that I have learned to read the New testament in Greek, so that I might not have to read God's words through the interpretation of another.

Can you say the same?

One cannot stay at one maturity level in Christ- one either grows, or withers (Matt 13, parable of the sower). We each have One Judge who will determine for Himself whether we have grown or whether we are lying disciples. Take care when you think you stand, lest you fall.

 

[notapseudonym]

God is the God of the living, is He not?
Since the saints are alive in Christ, who is God, God is their God.
And since God is their God and they are alive, then why can we not ask their prayers?
Do you ask your living neighbor, who's God is God, wether or not they admit it, for prayers? Can then I ask my friends in Heaven for prayers? Being in Heaven, hence the name Saint, they have a better grasp of who God is and what/how He works.
They have the Beatific vision (a gist gven to all souls who enter Heaven which is an empowerment of the soul to see God as He is, in all His glory and splendor).

Heidi, is it possible that truth can be reached in different ways for different people? Is it possible that some people can obtain a higher degree of truth?

Gary Bee, we have been answering your objections, not so much me as others, but we have been answering. "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard." Maybe the reason you don't find people praying to Mary in the Bible is 1. Not the material the Bible deals with and 2. Beacause Mary was still alive when some, if not all, of it was written.

Totus Tuus!

 

[Heidi]

If you seek tradition over truth, how can you ever grow in Christ? You're then at the same spiritual maturity level you were when you first heard what the tradition was, are you not? In that case, you might as well throw out the bible because you can never learn anything from it.

I seek truth through tradition. So does everyone- no one reads scripture devoid of influence. I seek truth in my reading of scripture, to such an extent that I have learned to read the New testament in Greek, so that I might not have to read God's words through the interpretation of another.

Can you say the same?

One cannot stay at one maturity level in Christ- one either grows, or withers (Matt 13, parable of the sower). We each have One Judge who will determine for Himself whether we have grown or whether we are lying disciples. Take care when you think you stand, lest you fall.

And how can you grow if your beliefs stay the same as they did when you first accepted the doctrine of your church?The only doctrine we have at our church is to have a personal living relationship with the Lord. We then use the bible as the source of truth. Do you not think you can find the truth in the bible? If so, then why do you need any other sources? If those sources only repeat what's in the bible, then why do you need them? But if they contradict the bible, then you're saying the bible isn't the truth. So which is it? :o

 

[Orthodox Christian]

And how can you grow if your beliefs stay the same as they did when you first accepted the doctrine of your church?

Is the rejection of the Trinity part of 'spiritual growth?' If not, why not? The answer is simple: truth is truth.
You have an obvious misunderstaning regarding Holy Tradition and how the Orthodox Christian interacts wih same. Tradition is merely a fence- inside the fence is infinite diversity.
Protestants also have fences- but their sheep are constantly leaping over the fences into other pastures. Of these, it could be well said

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

selah

The only doctrine we have at our church is to have a personal living relationship with the Lord.

This is a blatant falsehood. I have told you before that I have a dear friend who is a church planting pastor in the E Free church, North Central District. I taught the beginner and advanced Christian Doctrine class in his church while I was in-between serving as a pastor in an Evangelical church and coming to the Orthodox Church.

He was recruiting me to come on staff at one point, and I looked in-depth into the doctrine of the E Free Church. One hardline distinctive is pre-millenialism, as is the autonomy of the local church (see points 11 and 12)
http://www.efca.org/about/doctrine/
Were you aware of your own docrine?

Structure: The Church structure of the E Free is reminiscent of any other non-profit 501c3 organization. This is fine, but it's not 'biblical' per se
http://www.efca.org/about/leadership/index.html

We then use the bible as the source of truth. Do you not think you can find the truth in the bible?

The bible is the measure by which all 'truth' must be compared. It is the standard, the kanona. Any belief which is contradicted by Holy Scripture cannot be considered orthodox/true. We recognize that the scripture is interpreted differently by different traditions, and so we may come to different 'biblical' understandings of certain issues.
So does the E Free believe- read point 2 in your distinctives section
http://www.efca.org/about/distinctives/index.html

The E Free would agree that saints who have fallen asleep are alive in Christ. They would agree that Mary is the mother of Christ our God. They would not agree that we can ask any of these to pray for us. This is a difference of conclusion as to what these bible truths mean for us.

The E Free would describe believing Catholics, Orthodox, and others from the Trintarian tradition as true Christians, according to point 8 in the E Free doctrinal statement.
You are at variance with your church, as I have stated before.

If so, then why do you need any other sources?

Why does your pastor teach?

If those sources only repeat what's in the bible, then why do you need them?

Why does your pastor use commentaries? Why did he go to seminary? Why is accredited and examined?

But if they contradict the bible, then you're saying the bible isn't the truth. So which is it?

The doctrines of which you speak contradict the bible according to you.My reading and the reading of my brethren disagree. We are being faithful to our reading- why do wish to add your reading to our reading of scripture- isn't that rather hypocritical? Are we not free to read the scriptures for ourselves?

If we see something that contradicts the scripture in our tradition, we cast it out. This occured at Nicea and at the seventh Ecumenical council. When Luther saw something in scripture that contradicted his doctrine, he wanted to pull it out of the bible. Now, who says the bible contains truth and is THE standard?

In fairness and evenhandedness, Protestants since Luther have embraced the epistles Luther would have tossed out- but these very same epistles have been the source of doctrinal differences and many schisms.

 

[notapseudonym]

The truth is hard, if it were easy all would know it, the truth will also set you free.
When/if you come to the realization of truth then you will realize that arguments, such as this, aren't what converts people and your not the one converting others. You will realize charity works wonders and God is the one calling you to Him. You will also realize that there is really no need to tell people they are evil, Jesus hating, Mary loving demons who will go to Hell.

But what is truth?
One man says: Faith (Truth) is an universal, some of us pray to Jesus, sme of us go to Mecca, some study subatomical partcles, in the end we are all searching for truth, that which is greater than us.

Is this truth?