To those who pray to Mary...

[Gary]

Bill the Catholic, have you ever considered a course in logic?

• (1) My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee
  
  and
  
  (2) I offer myself entirely to Jesus

You do both at the same time? So you equate Mary to Jesus?

How sad!

Is your "entirely" not really "entirely"?

:-? :-?

 

[William Putnam]

Bill the Catholic, have you ever considered a course in logic?

• (1) My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to Thee
  
  and
  
  (2) I offer myself entirely to Jesus

You do both at the same time? So you equate Mary to Jesus?

How sad!

Is your "entirely" not really "entirely"?

:-? :-?

No, I simply know a universal truth that should be obvious to you as well:

"If you want something from the Son, ask His momma!"

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Give me that REAL old time religion!
The CATHOLIC CHURCH, 2,000 years of history!

 

[Orthodox Christian]

You ask a dumb question of me, Gary, I do not pray the prayer that you have listed because I am not Roman Catholic. Heck, I don't know if they pray that prayer, but I digress...

Technically, neither are "biblical." Both prayers are interpretive.

Most prayers offered are interpretive- I rarely hear people pray scripture only.

The prayer refrain that I say in church to the Theotokos is "y panagia theotoki, soson imas."

Hope that helps.

J/K

I would be uncomfortable with the phrasing of the prayer to Mary that you posted, because it seems to me to make some pretty black and white lines very blurry.

but I'm also uncomfortable with your prayer, because the refrain is completely individualistic, and makes no mention of the Father. This undermines the essential truth and orthodoxy of Trintarian belief, in my opinion (which was, after all, solicited).

In the morning I pray

In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit

O God, be merciful to me a sinner. (3)

Glory to You, our God, glory to You.

O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who is everywhere present and fill all things, Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in me, and cleanse me of all impurity, and save my soul, O Good One.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us. (3)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen. . - O Most Holy Trinity, have mercy on (me). O Lord, blot out my sins. O Master, pardon my iniquities. O Holy One, visit and heal my infirmities for Your name's sake.

Lord, have mercy. (3).

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, (etc) .

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

(special petitions and thanksgiving)

Bless the Lord, o my soul, bless Hi holy Name: bless the Lord, o my soul, and forget none of His benefits (etc- this is a good psalm to commit to memory- it is the gospel in short)

Lord and God of all, direct my paths this day in your pure Word, for your Names' sake. Bless the work of my hands, and may your good Spirit dwell with me. Bless those that I meet, through me, that your Kingdom might go forth into all the earth. For you alone are Holy, you alone are the Most High God, and all glory belongs to you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

So, how does that strike you, Gary?
That's how I roll.

 

[stovebolts]

(1) Nope. The question is.... Is there a Scripture which says we should pray TO Mary? I have already referenced one of the most common Roman Catholic prayers TO Mary which says nothing about Jesus or God. It is a prayer to Mary giving your life to her! Would you pray this prayer to Mary? As I said... "I give my life to Jesus." Roman Catholics give their life to Mary. Both can't be right. Which do you choose?

Actually Gary, the question becomes anything you wish to seek. You know, seek and you shall find... and the one asking the questions always has the advantage : Nice diversion.

Ever notice how more things are disputed over things that are "NOT" in the Bible, than what IS in the Bible? However, you do make some good points... and I could rebuttle with "Sounds like the "LAW"... because of course were not under the law anymore... but that would just be a waste of time and yet another abberated diversion from the thread.

Can you believe that sombody actually told me I'd go to Hell if I worshipped in my car with Acappella (the group) because they made the "Sounds" of musical instuments :-?

ohh, I remember praying to Jesus, then I found out that he had a Father. Now I pray to God, through Jesus... And I thank God for sending His Son each time I pray.

 

[Gary]

"If you want something from the Son, ask His momma!"

So where did Paul or the author of Hebrews or James or Peter or Jude or Jesus ever pray to Mary?

P.S. "entirely" means (1) wholly; completely (2) solely or exclusively



http://www.justforcatholics.org

:

 

[Gary]

You ask a dumb question of me, Gary, I do not pray the prayer that you have listed because I am not Roman Catholic. Heck, I don't know if they pray that prayer.....

Heck, you should know. You have already tried to defend their prayers to Mary.

Try this!
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

:bday: :bday: :bday:

 

[Heidi]

When someone prays to someone, he begs and beseeches that person to do what he wants. He therefore gives that person power over him.

But when we ask people to pray for us, they can answer us! They can say "yes" or "no." It is like asking someone what time it is. We then know that person and what that person stands for. And that is why none of us prays to each other! Prayer connotates worship. That is what we do when we pray to God. When we pray to God, we bow down on our knees in humility to him. That is worship. The catholics do the same thing with Mary. They treat Mary the exact same way as they treat God. They exalt her, then pray to her! Anyone who prays to anyone other than God is idol-worshipping and breaking the 1st 2 commandments.

This is also born out by statues to which people bow down. I saw a picture of the pope doing that exact same thing to a statue of Mary. But the catholics see the pope as God because they think he can do no wrong. I have never seen one catholic on this forum give anything but worship and adoration for the pope. They do not see him as a human being who makes mistakes. Therefore, they cannot admit that he errs. They have elevated him as perfect and infallible. The only one who is perfect & infallible is God. People who do this to human beings are the same people who will do this to the anti-Christ. People worship makes a person susceptible to seeing a human being as God. And that is why the bible tells us that many, many people will be deceived by the anti-Christ.

 

[Heidi]

Wolves in sheep's clothing say one thing and do another. The catholics say they don't worship Mary but they treat Mary the exact same was they treat God. They exalt her in prayer, then talk to her. That is exactly how they treat God! This idol-worship and breaking the 1st 2 commandments.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm[/url]

:bday: :bday: :bday:[/quote:3f17b]
I haven't defended the "prayer of Catholics to Mary," I have defended the practice of requesting prayer from each and every saint- do try to keep your facts straight, Gary.

The astute observer will quickly discern that my intent is to 1. defend orthodox Christian practice and Orthodox Christian practice and 2. to defend Catholics, Muslims, atheists, and sundry others from the scathing attacks launched from your Jesus canons. I do so without resorting to questioning your salvation or your motives, and without attacking your person- a courtesy you all do not extend to the groups I have mentioned.

It is sound Christian doctrine to invite in the lost sheep for a cool drink. It is not sound Christian doctrine to throw scalding water on them from self-appointed pedestals.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

When someone prays to someone, he begs and beseeches that person to do what he wants. He therefore gives that person power over him.

But when we ask people to pray for us, they can answer us!

No, they cannot. Only God can answer prayers.

 

[Heidi]

Again orthodox, you completely misunderstood me. If I ask you to pray for me, you most certainly can answer me!!

I was making the distinction bewteen pray to someone and asking some to pray for us. So get your facts straight, Orthodox.

 

[Heidi]

Again orthodox, you completely misunderstood me. If I ask you to pray for me, you most certainly can answer me!!

I was making the distinction bewteen praying to someone and asking someone to pray for us. So get your facts straight, Orthodox.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

No need to repeat yourself, Heidi.

My feigned misunderstanding accomplished its end.

You now understand the difference between asking someone to pray for you, and praying to them.

Whether I say to you that I will pray for you or not, I may or may not do so. Those who are in presence of God, we can fairly assume, are more dependable than we caught up in earthly concerns.

Thus, we ask those in heaven to pray for us.

 

[Heidi]

The catholics treat Mary exactly the same way they treat God. They bow down to her, exalt her in prayer, then talk to her in prayer. That is exactly how they treat God. Prayer is meant for worship, and that is exactly what the catholics do in prayer to Mary.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Heidi, in the information age, there is no excuse for being clueless.

It is practice is some countries for heterosexual men to kiss each other on the cheek. Coptic Christians cross their arms as a sign of respect. You must interpret the action from within the culture of the one performing the deed. You are judging Roman Catholics by American Protestant standards, and American protestants show no honor to any man on earth or in heaven. They are still fighting with George the third and holding the Alamo.

Roman Catholics and Orthodox make Proskeneo, or bowing/touching the ground as a sign of honor. Jacob did this before Esau- it is a Near Eastern custom.

Latreia worship is reserved for God alone, and it involves making full prostration on the ground, and full exaltation. Worship exists in the heart. I know when I am honoring my brethren, and I know when my heart is offering worship to the only true God.

But the distinctions can readily be found on any apologetics website not owned and operated by Catholic haters. Do you need a hand with this?

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but I have no interest in bowing down to fallible human beings. You can if you like.

None of us is any better or worse than the next person. I do not exalt anyone is better than another. Who am I to judge anyone? Nor do I treat any human being the way I treat God. Jesus tells us not to. But you can disgaree with him if you like. But you're right, many people do give human beings the same honor they give God. Most human beings rejct Christ as the Son of God too. ;-)

 

[Confusion]

Heidi... I really have to ask because your confusing me with this...

You say "Nor do I treat any human being the way I treat God."
Are you saying Christ was not human?
The Christ in the Scriptures walked this earth. He ate, he slept, He felt emotions such as sadness and anger...
Yet you then turn and praise Christ as God?
If he is the Son of God, do not treat him as God... For the Father is not the Son... There is nothing relating to that directly in Scripture.
Though, That is only said if one takes Scripture word for word.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Here are a few things to keep in mind, from the scriptures:

Honor your father and your mother.

Note the word Honor

Lev 19:32

'You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the Lord.

Honoring the aged is equated with honoring the Lord.

Regarding proper conduct and attitude: Rom 13:7

Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and import duties, and give respect and honor to all to whom it is due.

Regarding the Elders in the Church who earn honor: 1 Tim 5:17

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Yet you say, Heidi

None of us is any better or worse than the next person. I do not exalt anyone is better than another.

That's not a BIBLICAL perspective, Heidi, that's American egalitarian nonsense. All are created equal, but many finish in indignity. Some finish in a way that leads people like Paul the Apostle to say of them "of whom the world was not worthy"

Your lack of respect for Elders, fathers, and mothers is evident on this forum. He or she who does not pay honor in due humility will receive not honor in this world or the next.

 

[Gary]

....You now understand the difference between asking someone to pray for you, and praying to them.

Whether I say to you that I will pray for you or not, I may or may not do so. Those who are in presence of God, we can fairly assume, are more dependable than we caught up in earthly concerns.

Thus, we ask those in heaven to pray for us.

Roman Catholics do not "ask" Mary... they pray to Mary. I have already shown you that. How do you "ask" Mary to pray for you except by praying to her? So you too pray to Mary, like Roman Catholics.

Do you also think that Mary is omnipresent?

Heck, I don't know if they (Roman Catholics) pray that prayer.....

Heck, I have already shown you the prayer that Roman Catholics pray to Mary. Several times. Proof?
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

Heck, now do you accept the fact that Roman Catholics pray that prayer to Mary?

:bday: :bday: :bday:

 

[Gary]

The astute observer will quickly discern that my intent is to 1. defend orthodox Christian practice and Orthodox Christian practice and 2. to defend Catholics, Muslims, atheists, and sundry others from the scathing attacks launched from your Jesus canons. I do so without resorting to questioning your salvation or your motives, and without attacking your person- a courtesy you all do not extend to the groups I have mentioned.

It is sound Christian doctrine to invite in the lost sheep for a cool drink. It is not sound Christian doctrine to throw scalding water on them from self-appointed pedestals.

Your self-appointed pedestal gives you away! Would you like a cool drink?

P.S. How did Jesus treat false teachers? You got a few Bible verses?