To those who pray to Mary...

[CatholicXian]

A few misunderstandings...

First of all, Gary:
1) the practice of praying TO Mary and the Saints as done by Catholics (lose the "Roman", otherwise, how is my Byzantine friend okay, but I'm not?) is NO DIFFERENT than asking a friend to pray FOR you, (read closely here,) BY WAY OF MEDIATION.
In asking ANYONE (Saint or fellow Christian on earth) to pray for you-- they are MEDIATING for you... a mediation that is SECONDARY and SUBORDINATE to the one, perfect meditation of Christ. In fact, it is only THROUGH the PERFECT mediation of Christ that the mediation of your friends and the Saints in Heaven is possible.

2) Yes, it would be appropriate to say that Catholics pray TO the Saints in Heaven, SO LONG AS you understand what is meant. Do Catholics pray TO the Saints in Heaven in the same manner/act of worship as they pray TO God? No, let's not be ridiculous. God is God, and there is none other. I believe Orthodox Christian already brought up St. Thomas Aquinas' "latria"/"dulia" distinction. ("dulia" is a level of VENERATION given to created things... recognizing their goodness made possible THROUGH the Creator).

3) Your website is a PRIVATE site, espousing PRIVATE devotions to Mary. Does the Church REQUIRE Catholics to pray such prayers? No. Especially if they don't feel comfortable doing so (perhaps because the misunderstand it...). Also, the idea of giving all to Mary is not to the exclusion of Christ. How so? In the understanding of the Church one is giving all to the "Haidmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38)-- thus, one is becoming a servant to the servant of the Lord... ALL is still aimed at Christ. It is a pratice and devotion of HUMILITY. Not an attempt to remove one's self from Christ, as you seem to think. Furthermore, what makes you think that Mary would (or even could!) lead a Christian away from Christ? Have you any Scriptural evidence (I ought to ask Heidi this as well!)? No? But I bet there are plenty of instances in the Scriptures where Mary points to her Son. And that, is the purpose of all Marian devotion and prayer-- to grow closer to Christ. If you want to take issue with the Marian TEACHINGS of the Church (we've looked at them previously)... but PRIVATE prayers and devotions are not REQUIRED, they are personal expressions of faith (that must be understood in their proper context).

4) You still continue to insist that the Church teaches the intercessory prayer (possible ONLY through Christ) to the exclusion of prayer to Jesus. This is unfounded and ridiculous. And most certainly not the case.


Heidi--

Your unfounded, unevidenced, exaggerated opinions are hardly even worth responding to. You've no interest in even pretending to learn what the teachings of the Church ACTUALLY are, but instead cling to (invented, I'd argue) hear-say, and your imaginative opinions. You claim to have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church... but your posts obviously suggest otherwise.

You've pushed Christ out of the Seat of Judgment that you may sit there, as though omniscient and omnipotent, and proclaim judgment over all Christians other than yourself (look at the way you treat others on this board! Even fellow protestants!)--Yes, Christ was harsh to the pharisees and money-changers in the temple. But you forget-- Christ is God! Jesus is Judge! NOT you. You are NOT Christ Jesus. There is a LARGE difference between condemning, and correcting.

 

[Gary]

OC, it took me 10 seconds to realise you have still not answered this....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary--

less than 10 seconds to remember John 19:26-27.

 

[Gary]

Do Catholics pray TO the Saints in Heaven in the same manner/act of worship as they pray TO God? No, let's not be ridiculous.

I agree it is ridiculous. Do a Google search on the Internet... "Prayers to Mary".. there are thousands of sites. In most of the prayers to Mary, replace "Mary" with "God" or "Mary" with "Jesus" and the prayers become identical to prayers to God or Jesus.

The prayer to Mary that I have quoted many times already in this thread was prayed EVERY day by the ex-Roman Catholic girl I spoke about. She was taught by Roman Catholics that that was the most important prayer she could pray!

P.S. OC seems stuck. Maybe you can help him.... Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

 

[CatholicXian]

[quote="]Do Catholics pray TO the Saints in Heaven in the same manner/act of worship as they pray TO God? No, let's not be ridiculous.

I agree it is ridiculous. Do a Google search on the Internet... "Prayers to Mary".. there are thousands of sites. In most of the prayers to Mary, replace "Mary" with "God" or "Mary" with "Jesus" and the prayers become identical to prayers to God or Jesus.

The prayer to Mary that I have quoted many times already in this thread was prayed EVERY day by the ex-Roman Catholic girl I spoke about. She was taught by Roman Catholics that that was the most important prayer she could pray!

[/quote]
All hear-say. You've read the Catechism.. perhaps you could find such a prayer in it?

Gary there is MORE to prayer than words.. there are INTENTIONS. If you replaced the word "Mary" in whatever prayers you're speaking of with "God" or "Jesus", you would (or ought) to have different INTENTIONS in praying them. Read up on "latria"/"dulia".


PS--I already offered a response to your PS.

 

[Gary]

26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. John 19:26-27

hmmm.... Is that where Jesus taught Roman Catholics to pray to Mary? Please explain.

:-?

 

[Gary]

Furthermore, what makes you think that Mary would (or even could!) lead a Christian away from Christ? Have you any Scriptural evidence...

Yes. Of course there is Scriptural evidence. I have already given it.

There are many reasons the Scriptures forbid praying to Mary and praying to the saints.

a) God is the only proper object of our prayers

Nowhere in Scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God. In fact, the only prayer in the Bible addressed to a saint was from hell, and God did not answer it (Luke 16:23-31)! Prayer is an act of religious devotion, and therefore only God is the proper object of such devotion (Revelation 4:11). There are prayers from Genesis to Revelation, but not one is addressed to a saint, angel, or anyone other than a member of the Trinity. Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Father who art in heaven. . . .†The God of Isaiah the prophet emphatically declared: “Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!†(Isaiah 45:22). Indeed, there is no other person but God to whom anyone anywhere in the Holy Scriptures ever turned in prayer.

b) It is an idolatrous practice

Prayer is a form of worship, and only God should be worshiped (Exodus 20:3). It is idolatrous to pray to mere human beings or to bow down before them or an image of them or any other creature. The first commandment declares: “You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them†(Exodus 20:3-5). Praying to saints or even bowing down to them are violations of this commandment.

The Bible forbids the practice of making images and bowing down to them or to any creature. When John bowed down to worship “at the feet of the angel†he was rebuked by the angel who said, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets. . . . Worship God†(Revelation 22:9).

c) It is forbidden as witchcraft

The Old Testament condemns all attempts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 Leviticus 20:6 1 Samuel 28:5-18; Isaiah 8:19-20). Those who violated this command were to be put to death. In all of Scripture there is not a single divinely approved instance of a righteous person praying to a departed believerâ€â€not one. Indeed, Saul was condemned for his attempt to contact the dead Samuel (1 Samuel 28). Given the danger of deception and the lack of faith that the practice of necromancy and idolatry evidence, it is not difficult to understand God’s command.

Deuteronomy separates “divination†from one “who consults the dead†and condemns both!

The contention that asking a deceased believer to intercede on our behalf is no different from asking a friend here on earth to pray for us is an unsubstantiated claim. There are substantial differences. For one thing, one is in heaven and the other is on earth. Also, there is a huge difference between asking an earthly friend to pray for us and praying to a dead friend! Finally, friends on earth are in the body and have senses by which they can get our message, friends in heaven do not: they do not have a physical body (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23 Revelation 6:9).

d) It is a practical denial of the mediatorship of Christ

Evangelicals believe that to use any mere human being to mediate with God is an insult to the all-sufficient, divinely appointed mediatorship of Jesus Christ. Paul declared emphatically, “There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human†(1 Timothy 2:5 John 10:9 John 14:6). Hebrews 4:15-16 assures us that in Jesus “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin.†Because of this we are urged to “confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace for timely help.â€Â

There is no reason to go to Mary or any other saint with our requests. Indeed, it is the ultimate insult to Christ’s human suffering, mediatorship, and high priestly ministry to go to anyone else for grace or help.

Roman Catholic apologists attempt to avoid the sting of this argument by distinguishing between Christ as the sole mediator and all believers as intercessors. This distinction does not, however, help their cause (of proving we should pray to saints) because all the passages they use are about direct intercession to God, not to other creatures. In Ephesians 2:18, which they cite, it says explicitly that our access in prayer is “to the Father†not to the saints. Nowhere does Scripture state or imply that we should pray to the saints, and the Roman Catholic dogma which affirms infallibly that we should is a good example of putting tradition over Scripture, thus proving how fallible the alleged “infallible†teaching magisterium really is.

e) It is an insult to the intercession of the Holy Spirit

Much of the practical Roman Catholic justification for praying to the saints is based on the seemingly plausible argument that, because of their position in heaven, dead believers may be better able to intercede on our behalf. This is a practical denial of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose task it is to do this very thing on our behalf. And who is better able to intercede for us than another Person of the blessed Trinity? The Bible says, “we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings†(Romans 8:26).

Paul adds that through Christ we “have access in one Spirit to the Father†(Ephesians 2:18). Since beyond our own prayers to God the Holy Spirit intercedes for us perfectly “according to God’s will†(Romans 8:27) there is no need to call on anyone else in heaven to do so. It is wrong to expect that any human being could be more efficacious with God the Father than God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:1-2). To think so is to insult his divinely appointed role.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995).
Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and differences (Page 350).

Secondly, I have very practical experience of several ex-Roman Catholics who have since come to a true saving faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Before they were born again, they spent their time praying to Mary. Since coming to saving faith, they have dropped all those prayers.

 

[CatholicXian]

26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. John 19:26-27

hmmm.... Is that where Jesus taught Roman Catholics to pray to Mary? Please explain.

So why is it that the Byzatine practice of praying to the Saints is acceptable, but the Latin-rite (Roman) is not?

Back to your question... The Greek word "idios" is in John 19:27. What does the word "idios" mean... "own; self" ,etc. The verse, in the Greek, does not convey that John took Mary into his geographical residence (though, he probably did, that would be a safe assumption). Secondly, Calvary had universal significance. John stood at the foot of the Cross representative of all disciples who are called to also place themselves at the foot of the Cross of Christ. John stood there in place of all "beloved disciples"... and Mary stood there as the "new Eve" (St. Irenaeus addresses this, as well as a few other ECFs)--the new "mother of the living". Thus, as the Crucified speaks "behold your mother"... "behold your son" He is establishing a relationship... not merely between Mary and John, but between the Mother (the new Eve) and the Church. This is part of Calvary's universal significance--whereby we, 2000 years later, are saved by the one Sacrifice of Christ. The effects of Calvary are far reaching, beyond space, time, and place--universal. Otherwise, what is the purpose of these two verses--surely the placement was purposeful? Especially in light of the original language--the Greek... "idios". The verse doesn't say John took Mary to his house, he took Mary into his "own".

 

[CatholicXian]

(where's the flood control, again?)

Gary..

Points a-e are all based upon misunderstandings of the Catholic idea of intercessory prayer. As I've stated previously, the prayers (/mediation) of Mary and the Saints in Heaven is SECONDARY and SUBORDINATE to Christ because it is ONLY THROUGH Christ that it is possible.

If I have the time, I shall try to remember to come back and address each point specifically... but I still have 2 more exams left to take.

 

[Gary]

... I still don't see how any of that speculation says anything about Jesus teaching Roman Catholics to pray to Mary.

:-?

Maybe you can give some other verses which are more direct....... give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary, it is not my job to convince you of anything (I don't claim to be that talented). You asked where one might see such devotion (prayer/consecration) to Mary in the Scriptures. I gave one example-- that of Christ's words to John and Mary at the foot of the Cross. You claim it is but speculation... I am merely examining what the verse truly says (i.e., "idios"). I didn't say it was the only explanation/interpretation of the verse, but I do not see why such an interpretation could be considered unfounded or mere speculation.

And I'm not interested in playing "Scripture roulette" this week (after all, what's the quota for how often something needs to appear in the Scriptures to be authentic? I don't recall coming across such an idea?), I've got studying to do.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC, it took me 10 seconds to realise you have still not answered this....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

And it took me about a nanosecond to see two strawmen parading around, dressed up as questions.

Try again.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

c) It is forbidden as witchcraft

The Old Testament condemns all attempts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft

I see Evangelical Pastors doing just this every Sunday.

Thanks for the laugh, Gary, Geisler must write this stuff in long floppy shoes and a clown nose.

 

[Gary]

I am sure IF there were other verses that even remotely suggested prayers to Mary that you would have quoted them. You know as well as I do that there are no further verses that, even with the normal bending and twisting by Roman Catholics, can suggest prayers to Mary. Read you own "second Bible", the CCC. You will quickly see that there are no other verses. Try #2673 - #2682.



All the so-called intersession by Mary on our behalf is a practical denial of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose task it is to do this very thing on our behalf! Tell me ONE thing that the Holy Spirit does not do that you try and claim Mary does.

I will show you several more function of the Holy Spirit which are Scriptural and which totally debunk the so-called intersession of Mary. And I have the Scriptures to back me up.

You have another Roman Catholic dogma with no Scriptural proof. Very sad indeed. Even CCC # 2675 says "....the Chruches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God...." Yes, it is a RCC "development" with no Scriptural backing.

 

[Gary]

OC, it took me 10 seconds to realise you have still not answered this....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

And it took me about a nanosecond to see two strawmen parading around, dressed up as questions.

There are no questions in that particular post. Only a request for you to supply Scripture. But I guess your normal non-response and sarcastic reply are only another attempt to "red herring" and hide the fact that you have no answer.

Thanks.

:bday: :bday: :bday:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

If there are no questions, why do you claim I "have not answered?"

</hand>

 

[Gary]

Your "fruits" are showing again OC.

:bday: :bday: :bday:

Thanks for the laugh, Gary, Geisler must write this stuff in long floppy shoes and a clown nose.

Should we compare your academic credentials to Dr. Norman Geisler's credentials?

I will start with his...

Dr. Norman Geisler is author or coauthor of some fifty books and hundreds of articles. He has taught at the university and graduate level for forty three years and has spoken or debated in all fifty states and in twenty-five countries. He holds a Ph.D. in philosophy from Loyola University and now serves as President of Southern Evangelical Seminary, in Charlotte, North Carolina.

EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND
William Tyndale College, 1950-55 (diploma); University of Detroit, 1956-57; Wheaton College, 1958 (B.A. in philosophy); Wheaton Graduate School, 1960 (M.A. in theology); William Tyndale College, 1964 (Th.B.); Wayne State University Graduate School, 1964 (work in philosophy); University of Detroit Graduate School, 1965-66 (work on M.A. in philosophy); Northwestern University, Evanston, 1968 (work in philosophy); Loyola University, Chicago, 1967-70 (Ph.D. in philosophy).

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
Graduate Assistant in Bible-Philosophy Department, Wheaton College, 1959; Part-time Instructor in Bible at Detroit Bible College, 1959-62; Full-time Assistant Professor of Bible and Apologetics at Detroit Bible College, 1963-66; Full-time Associate Professor of Philosophy at Trinity College, 1970-71; visiting Professor of Philosophy of Religion, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1969-70; Chairman of Philosophy of Religion, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1970-79; Professor of Systematic Theology, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1979-1988; Dean of Liberty Center for Research and Scholarship, Lynchburg, VA, 1989-91. He is President of Southern Evangelical Seminary, Charlotte, NC, which he co-founded in 1992. National speaker at churches, retreats, pastor's conferences, universities, radio, and television, 1960-present.

PULPIT MINISTRY
Director of Northeast Suburban Youth for Christ, near Detroit, 1952-54; Pastor of Dayton Center Church, Silverwood, Michigan, 1955-57 (ordained there 1956); Assistant Pastor of River Grove Bible Church, River Grove, Illinois, 1958-59; Pastor of Memorial Baptist Church, Warren, Michigan, 1960-63; President of Alumni of Detroit Bible College, 1961-62; several interim pastorates in Michigan, Illinois, and Texas, 1965-; "Quest for Truth," radio ministry 1981-91. Currently Senior Pastor of Southern Evangelical Church 2003-present.

MEMBERSHIPS
Evangelical Theological Society, 1964-; American Philosophical Society, 1968-; Evangelical Philosophical Society, 1976-; American Scientific Association, 1980-; American Theological Society, 1980; American Academy of Religion, 1982-.

PUBLICATIONS
Books authored or co-authored: General Introduction to the Bible (Moody Press, 1968); Ethics: Alternatives and Issues (Zondervan, 1971); The Christian Ethic of Love (Zondervan, 1973); Philosophy of Religion (Zondervan, 1974); From God to Us (Moody Press, 1974); To Understand the Bible--Look for Jesus (Moody Press, 1975); Christian Apologetics (Baker Book House, 1976); A Popular Survey of the Old Testament (Baker Book House, 1977); The Roots of Evil (Zondervan, 1978); Inerrancy (Zondervan, 1979); Introduction to Philosophy: A Christian Perspective (Baker, 1980); Options in Contemporary Christian Ethics (Baker Book House, 1981); Biblical Errancy: Its Philosophical Roots (Zondervan, 1981); Decide for Yourself: How History Views the Bible (Zondervan, 1982): The Creator in the Courtroom--Scopes II (co-author, Baker, 1982); What Augustine Says (Baker Book House, 1982); Is Man the Measure? (Baker Book House, 1983); Cosmos: Carl Sagan's Religion for the Scientific Mind (Quest Publications, 1983); Religion of the Force (Quest, 1983); To Drink or Not to Drink: A Sober Look at the Problem (Quest, 1984); Perspectives: Understanding and Evaluating Today's World Views (Here's Life Publications, 1984); 6-Part Video Series: "Christianity Under Attack" (Quest, 1985); Christianity Under Attack (Quest, 1985); False Gods of Our Time (Harvest House, 1985); General Introduction to the Bible (revised and expanded, 1986); Reincarnation Sensation (Tyndale, 1986); Origin Science (Baker, 1987); Philosophy of Religion (revised, 1988); Signs and Wonders (Tyndale, 1988); World's Apart, (Baker 1989); Knowing The Truth About Creation (Servant, 1989); The Infiltration of the New Age (Tyndale, 1989); The Battle for the Resurrection (Thomas Nelson, 1989); Apologetics in the New Age (Baker, 1990); Come Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking (Baker, 1990); Gambling: A Bad Bet (Fleming H. Revell, 1990); The Life and Death Debate (Greenwood, 1990); In Defense of the Resurrection (Quest, 1991); Thomas Aquinas: An Evangelical Appraisal (1991); Matters of Life and Death: Calm Answers to Tough Questions about Abortion and Euthanasia (Baker, 1991); Miracles and the Modern Mind: A Defense of Biblical Miracles (Baker, 1991); When Critics Ask: A Handbook on Bible Difficulties (Victor, 1992); Miracles and the Modern Mind: A Defense of Biblical Miracles (Baker, 1992); Answering Islam (Baker, 1993); Roman Catholics and Evangelicals (1995); Love Is Always Right (Word, 1996); Creating God in the Image of Man? (Bethany House, 1997); When Cultists Ask (Baker, 1997); The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism (Harvest House, 1998); Legislating Morality (Bethany House, 1998); Baker’s Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Baker, 1999); Chosen But Free (Bethany, 1999); Unshakable Foundations (Bethany, 2001); Why I Am a Christian (Baker, 2001); Battle for God (Kregel, 2001); TruthQuest Living LoudL Defending Your Faith (Broadman & Holman, 2002); Systematic Theology, Vol 1 .(Bethany, 2002).

DEBATES
“Can the Existence of God Be Proven?†with Professor Milton Rosenberg at College of Lake County (1973); “Sexual Morality: Relative or Absolute?†with Professor Kenneth Simonson at College of Lake County (1973); “Is Christianity Credible?†with Dr. Michael Scriven at University of Calgary (1974); “Is Humanistic Ethics Superior to Biblical Christianity?†with Dr. Joseph E. Barnhart at North Texas State University (January 24, 1974); “Can the Existence of God Be Proven?†with Dr. Jonathan Saville (Spring 1976) at University of California, San Diego; debate on “The Existence of God,†Southern Methodist University (March, 1977); “Is Christianity Credible?†with John Riteris at IUPU, Indianapolis (November 2, 1977); “The Reasonableness of God’s Existence†with Dr. William Wisdom, Temple University (November 8, 1979); “Does God Exist?†with Dr. Wisdom, Temple University (February, 1980); “Christianity vs. Humanism†with Dr. K. Kolenda, Rice University (March 14, 1980); “Inerrancy of Scripture†with Dr. Norman Beck (January, 1981); “Does God Exist?†with Dr. William De Vries, Mount Holyoke College, Massachusetts (April 8, 1981); “The Inerrancy of Scripture†with Dr. Thor Hall, University of Tennessee, Chattanooga; “Creation/Evolution†with Dr. Claud Rupert (January 10, 1982, NBC-TV); “Creation vs. Evolution†with Dr. Paul Edwards (May 1983); “Should Creationism be Taught (as science) in the Public School? with Fred Edwards and Steve Schafersman (May 6, 1983); “Does God Exist?†with Harry Benswanger (April 9, 1984); “Why do Bad Things Happen to Good People?†a TV debate with Rabbi Kushner (1984); “Should Creation be Taught in Public Schools?†with Philip Kitcher (November 8, 1985); “Should Roe vs. Wade (Abortion) Decision Be Reversed?†with Charlotte Taft (January 17, 1986); “Christianity vs. Secular Humanism†with Dr. Paul Kurtz (1986), author of Humanist Manifesto II; “Is Christianity Rational†with Harvey Siegel (1987); “Process Theism vs. Classical Theism†with John Cobb (April, 1988); “Should Creation be Taught in the Public Schools†with ACLU attorney Crawford (March 5, 1991); “Did Jesus Rise from the Dead†with Farrel Til (March, 1994).

HONORS AND RECOGNITIONS
Graduated with honor from Wheaton College (1958).
Chosen as an “Outstanding Educator of America†(1975).
Philosophy of Religion text chosen as a “Choice Evangelical Book of the Year†by Christianity Today (1975).
First president of Evangelical Philosophical Society (1976).
Elected to the Wheaton Scholastic Honor Society (1977).
Listed in Who's Who in Religion, Writers Who's Who, and Men of Achievement. Honored as Alumnus of the Year (1982), William Tyndale College (June 14, 1981); quoted in Time magazine (Jan. 1982, Sept. 1985).
General Introduction to the Bible won the Cornerstone Magazine book of the year award in its category (1986).
When Skeptics Ask was nominated for the Medallion Award of the year in the category of Missions/Evangelism (1991).
President of Evangelical Theological Society (1998).
Won Gold Medallion Award for Legislating Morality (1999).
Won Silver Medallion Award for Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (2000).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever read any of his books?

:wink: :wink:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Why didn't you answer my question, Gary?

Speaking of fruity, what's with the onslaught of emoticons, Gary?

There are children who understand that there are no such thing as "dead saints." Shall we compare their academic credentials to someone, Gary?

absolutely.

These same children I spoke of know that Jesus walked on water, but this guy doesn't believe that Jesus really did so:

Robert W. Funk is a distinguished teacher, writer, translator and publisher in the field of religion. A Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar, he has served as Annual Professor of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem and as chair of the Graduate Department of Religion at Vanderbilt University. Robert Funk is a recognized pioneer in modern biblical scholarship, having led the Society of Biblical Literature as its Executive Secretary from 1968–1973. His many books include The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus (1993) and The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds (1998) (both with the Jesus Seminar) and Honest to Jesus (1996), and A Credible Jesus (2002)..
Books by Robert Funk

A Credible Jesus: Fragments of a Vision, 2002.
The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds (with the Jesus Seminar), 1998.
Honest to Jesus: Jesus for a New Millennium, 1996
New Gospel Parallels: The Gospel of Mark, 1995
The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus (with Roy Hoover and the Jesus Seminar), 1993
The Gospel of Mark: Red Letter Edition (with Mahlon Smith), 1991
The Parables of Jesus: Red Letter Edition (with James Butts and Bernard Brandon Scott), 1988
The Poetics of Biblical Narrative, 1988
Parables and Presence, 1982
Jesus as Precursor, 1975, revised 1994
A Beginning-Intermediate Grammar of Hellenistic Greek, 1973
Language, Hermeneutic, and Word of God, 1966
A Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Blass-Debrunner (translated and revised), 1961
Academic Credentials

A.B., Butler University
M.A., Butler University
B.D., Christian Theological Seminary
Ph.D., Vanderbilt University
Special Study

University of Toronto, Canada, 1973–1974
University of Tübingen, Germany, 1965–1966
Ecumenical Institute, Bossey, Switzerland, 1947
Academic Appointments

Professor of Religious Studies, University of Montana, 1969–1986
Professor of New Testament, Vanderbilt University, 1966–1969
Associate Professor of New Testament, Drew University, 1959–1966
Assistant Professor of Biblical Theology, Emory University, 1958–1959
Annual Professor, American School of Oriental Research (Jerusalem), 1957–1958
Instructor, Harvard Divinity School, 1956–1957
Assistant Professor of Religion, Texas Christian University, 1953–1956
Professional Service

Co-chair, The Jesus Seminar, 1985–
Founder and Director, Westar Institute, 1986–
Founder and President, Polebridge Press, 1981–
Founder and Director, Scholars Press, 1974–1980
Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of Montana, 1974–1976
President, Society of Biblical Literature, 1974–1975
Associate Dean, College of Arts & Sciences, University of Montana, 1971–1972
Executive Committee, American Council of Learned Societies, 1970–1972
Conference of Secretaries, American Council of Learned Societies, 1968–1973
Board of Directors, American Academy of Religion, 1968–1973
Executive Secretary, Society of Biblical Literature, 1968–1973
Chair, Graduate Department of Religion, Vanderbilt University, 1967–1969
Awards and Honors

Society of Biblical Literature, Fellowship, 1980–1981
American Council of Learned Societies, Fellowship, 1973–74
Fulbright Senior Scholar, University of Tübingen, Germany, 1966–1967
Guggenheim Fellow, 1966–1967

I think Funk is a clown...wouldn't you agree?
Or do his credentials sway you to his viewpoints?

checkmate.

 

[Gary]

Well IF you had even studied his credentials, you MAY have noticed:

Co-chair, The Jesus Seminar, 1985–

That says it all.

By the way, have you read anything written by him?

I have several books about the "Jesus Seminar".

:bday: :bday: :bday:

 

[Gary]

Still unanswered....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

:bday: :bday: :bday: