To those who pray to Mary...

[Heidi]

Heidi... I really have to ask because your confusing me with this...

You say "Nor do I treat any human being the way I treat God."
Are you saying Christ was not human?
The Christ in the Scriptures walked this earth. He ate, he slept, He felt emotions such as sadness and anger...
Yet you then turn and praise Christ as God?
If he is the Son of God, do not treat him as God... For the Father is not the Son... There is nothing relating to that directly in Scripture.
Though, That is only said if one takes Scripture word for word.

Are you saying that all other human beings are as sinless as Christ? If so, then you need to learn exactly who Jesus was. Jesus was God in human form. if you do not believe that, then you are not a Christian. Only when you understand that, will you understand why he teaches us to pray; to "Our Father in heaven...in Jesus's name." until you understand that, then you haven't a clue who Christ was. Jesus is the way to God which is why we are to pray directly to Christ. He is our intercessor to God. Nowhere does the bible say anywhere that Mary is our intercessor to either Jesus or God. Nowhere. That's a made-up gospel. So if you want to defend a made-up gospel then be my guest. But paul tells us what will happen to those who do.

 

[Heidi]

Here are a few things to keep in mind, from the scriptures:

Honor your father and your mother.

Note the word Honor

Lev 19:32

'You shall rise before the gray headed and honor the presence of an old man, and fear your God: I am the Lord.

Honoring the aged is equated with honoring the Lord.

Regarding proper conduct and attitude: Rom 13:7
[quote:8b73c]Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and import duties, and give respect and honor to all to whom it is due.

Regarding the Elders in the Church who earn honor: 1 Tim 5:17

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Yet you say, Heidi

None of us is any better or worse than the next person. I do not exalt anyone is better than another.

That's not a BIBLICAL perspective, Heidi, that's American egalitarian nonsense. All are created equal, but many finish in indignity. Some finish in a way that leads people like Paul the Apostle to say of them "of whom the world was not worthy"

Your lack of respect for Elders, fathers, and mothers is evident on this forum. He or she who does not pay honor in due humility will receive not honor in this world or the next.[/quote:8b73c]

Jesus was the Son of God, Orthodox, remember? He tells us "A student cannot be greater than his teacher." If you think that Mary was wiser than the Son of God, then you do indeed worship Mary more than Christ! But we humans who were not conceived from God himself and are not better than our parents. Jesus was! I'm sorry that you don't think so.

Do you pray to President Bush? :o

You haven't a clue what prayer is and you dishonor God by praying to human beings just like you pray to God. So what treatment can you give God that is better than the treatment you give to human beings? How do you show him more honor than you show human beings? Or don't you think he deserves more honor??????

Please answer the above question.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

....You now understand the difference between asking someone to pray for you, and praying to them.

Whether I say to you that I will pray for you or not, I may or may not do so. Those who are in presence of God, we can fairly assume, are more dependable than we caught up in earthly concerns.

Thus, we ask those in heaven to pray for us.

Roman Catholics do not "ask" Mary... they pray to Mary. I have already shown you that.

<snip>
You've shown jack and squat, Gary, you've done nothing here but say "oh yes you do."

How do you "ask" Mary to pray for you except by praying to her? So you too pray to Mary, like Roman Catholics.

Typical, you ask the question and answer it for yourself. This is not the spirit of inquiry, Gary, this is ego with onboard NOS.

The answer to your question, such as it is, is that I ask her by opening my mouth and doing so. Asking Mary to pray is no different than asking anyone else to pray. God is near, heaven is near, and the saints "encompass us" to quote Hebrews.

You and your cohorts in your heterodox fable-weaving cluster cult believe heaven to be far away up on fluffy clouds with neutered saints swooning in rapt disregard to everyone and everything they ever cared about on earth, including the future and well-being of the Church.
We see a Church that is truly One, gung ho, esprit de corps, all for One, One for all.

Your notion of church never stretches beyond one generation, which is why you have to reinvent your culture-driven pep rally churches to suit the itching ears and feet every 25 years or so.

Do you also think that Mary is omnipresent?

Heck, I don't know if they (Roman Catholics) pray that prayer.....

I believe that those who go on to the ternal realm are not limited to one location or realm like we are. Angelic visitation involve angels appearing suddenly and then disappearing. This is not an issue of traveling through distance to come to us.

Eternity is outside of time, and so is outside of what we consider space. Ask Mr Einstein.

Heck, I have already shown you the prayer that Roman Catholics pray to Mary. Several times. Proof?
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

Heck, now do you accept the fact that Roman Catholics pray that prayer to Mary?

:bday: :bday: :bday:

Mocking is Satan's pass time Gary. So who do you emulate?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Jesus was the Son of God, Orthodox, remember?

Jesus IS the Son of God, Heidi, and He ever shall be, no matter how much you try to shove Him off the throne so you can sit in judgement.

He tells us "A student cannot be greater than his teacher." If you think that Mary was wiser than the Son of God,

Stop there, this is just stupid. No where did I say anything of the sort- either you're trolling, or you're not well.

then you do indeed worship Mary more than Christ! But we humans who were not conceived from God himself and are not better than our parents. Jesus was! I'm sorry that you don't think so.

Further inane commentary, based upon a sentiment I've never held or expressed. Care to ever respond to my lucid comments from my last post, or shall we just anticipate more cacophonous bedlam?

Do you pray to President Bush?

President Bush is a Zionist Evangelical with the blood of tens of thousands of Iraqis on his hands, and the blood of Sudanese he will not lift a finger to save all over his clothing. I pray that men like Bush and Clinton are no longer promoted to the highest office in the world.

I pray TO one person, heidi, see if you can wrap your mind around that.

You haven't a clue what prayer is and you dishonor God by praying to human beings just like you pray to God. So what treatment can you give God that is better than the treatment you give to human beings? How do you show him more honor than you show human beings? Or don't you think he deserves more honor??????

This is like explaining rainbows to Stevie Wonder.

Please answer the above question.

My prayer relationship with God is to be a private matter, done in secret, not to impress humans, Heidi. It will not be fodder here.

 

[Confusion]

Heidi... I really have to ask because your confusing me with this...

You say "Nor do I treat any human being the way I treat God."
Are you saying Christ was not human?
The Christ in the Scriptures walked this earth. He ate, he slept, He felt emotions such as sadness and anger...
Yet you then turn and praise Christ as God?
If he is the Son of God, do not treat him as God... For the Father is not the Son... There is nothing relating to that directly in Scripture.
Though, That is only said if one takes Scripture word for word.

Are you saying that all other human beings are as sinless as Christ? If so, then you need to learn exactly who Jesus was. Jesus was God in human form. if you do not believe that, then you are not a Christian. Only when you understand that, will you understand why he teaches us to pray; to "Our Father in heaven...in Jesus's name." until you understand that, then you haven't a clue who Christ was. Jesus is the way to God which is why we are to pray directly to Christ. He is our intercessor to God. Nowhere does the bible say anywhere that Mary is our intercessor to either Jesus or God. Nowhere. That's a made-up gospel. So if you want to defend a made-up gospel then be my guest. But paul tells us what will happen to those who do.

I mentioned Mary in that post? Sorry, I don't even know what I type apparently...

"Jesus was God in human form."
No... By Scripture... He was God's Son... Scripture does not support Jesus = God, but Jesus = God's Son

Now... As you admitted "Jesus was God in human form."
Yet... You say "Nor do I treat any human being the way I treat God."
You just lied... And Contradicted yourself.

"Our Father in heaven...in Jesus's name."

Um... That latter isn't in the Our Father... You might want to re-read it a few times...

So... You lie again because Jesus did not teach us to pray in his name...

Jesus is the way to God which is why we are to pray directly to Christ. He is our intercessor to God.

In the New Testament... Yes... Not the Old Testament... I've never seen anything relating the two... Please, I would like some proof...


if you do not believe that, then you are not a Christian.
Also, Well, I am a Christian, I just prefer to use Atheistic views when talking here... It's less criticized... It is also a better way to refute to posts here when they claim that since this isn't in scripture, or this isn't how they interpret it... It cannot be true... When, have of the Christian beliefs are not in Scripture without interpretation... Such as the Trinity...

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The astute observer will quickly discern that my intent is to 1. defend orthodox Christian practice and Orthodox Christian practice and 2. to defend Catholics, Muslims, atheists, and sundry others from the scathing attacks launched from your Jesus canons. I do so without resorting to questioning your salvation or your motives, and without attacking your person- a courtesy you all do not extend to the groups I have mentioned.

It is sound Christian doctrine to invite in the lost sheep for a cool drink. It is not sound Christian doctrine to throw scalding water on them from self-appointed pedestals.

Your self-appointed pedestal gives you away! Would you like a cool drink?

P.S. How did Jesus treat false teachers? You got a few Bible verses?

Gary says "I Know you are, but what am I"

The day will come soon when you will find out personally how Jesus treats false teachers, Gary. Here, I'm a giver, this is SPF 12,000

 

[Heidi]

John 16:23, "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Jesus does indeed tell us to pray in his name! Jesus also says; "I and the father are one." So before you accuse people of lying, you better get your facts straight.

 

[Gary]

I will keep this very simple for you OC....

Roman Catholics do not "ask" Mary... they pray to Mary. I have already shown you that. I have already shown you the prayers that Roman Catholics pray to Mary. Several times. Proof?
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

Notice the name of the link? PrayerstoMary i.e. Prayers to Mary.

Now go to the link. See the title? It is...
Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Scroll down a bit and you will see:

Morning consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen

I prefer to pray to God and to devote myself to God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I also prefer to call on the Helper that Jesus sent, the Holy Spirit.

But I guess you find that devoting and offering yourself to Mary and praying to Mary more Scriptural. Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

:bday: :bday: :bday:

 

[Confusion]

John 16:23, "I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Jesus does indeed tell us to pray in his name! Jesus also says; "I and the father are one." So before you accuse people of lying, you better get your facts straight.

Alright... Still waiting for the proof to the New Testament ect... as I stated in last post.





I dun actually feel like revoking from John what you said because I believe it as well... Glad to see you actually finding your quotes in the Scripture though, instead of off handly saying them. :angel:

 

[Confusion]

Now Im just bored and using google

He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:28, 47),
made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42),
and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48).
At the end of her life he took her, body and soul, into heaven
an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:12).

Why do Catholics Worship Mary?
Catholics do not worship Mary or anyone or any thing
other than God. To otherwise assert is
intellectually dishonest.
Veneration, or honor is not worship.
To "honor" is recommended by the bible: Mark 7:10
Catholics honor Mary because she is the Mother of God.
The bible tells us that she is "blessed amoung women":
Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her,
"Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you;
blessed are you among women!"


Why do Catholics call Mary the Mother of God?
To begin with, the Bible says so:
Luke 1:43 "But why is this granted to me, that the
mother of my Lord should come to me?
The Council of Ephesus settled this question in the year 431.
It is the protestants who have no memory of the Church of Christ
if they do not know this.


Why do Catholics believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived?
First of all: Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing will be impossible."
Elizabeth says to her, "Blessed are you among women..." Luke 1:41-42. Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore speaking without error, says that she is the most blessed of all women. This includes Eve, who was born without sin. Mary is more blessed than Eve, and is therefore born, also, without original sin.
The Angel Gabriel proclaimed that she was full of grace: Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
She is the "woman" in enmity with Satan:

Gen 3:15: And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel. (Note: the Seed is Christ)
Mary was still saved by Christ in her preservation from sin.
Mary is the "Ark of the New Covenant" Hebrews 9:4

She was made to hold the living Word of God (ten commandments)
Who is the High Priest (rod of Aaron)
Who is the Bread of Life (manna)
As the "Ark of the Covenant", she is pure. (without sin)


Who do Catholics believe that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin?
First of all, all Christians believed this up to the
Reformation. Even Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli also defended
the Perpetual Virginity of our Blessed Mother.
The bibles frequently has the word "brother", but this word
is very loosely used throughout the bible to mean "kin", or "clansman".

Genesis 14:14 "Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed
his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house,
and went in pursuit as far as Dan." This passage refers to Abrams "nephew", not "brother".
Other translations say "kinsman". Therefore use of the word "brother" does not mean that Jesus had any siblings.

On the cross, Jesus gave his mother, Mary, to John. Jewish law required Him to give His mother to a brother. There was no brother. That's why He gave her to John, who represents the Church.
Further information on: Jesus Did Not Have Brothers


Why do Catholics pray to Mary when 1 Tim 2:5 says that there is only one
mediator between God and man and that is Christ?
The word pray does not mean worship. Catholics do not worship Mary or any saint.
We are not referring to "Redemption", we are referring to intercessory prayer (see below).
All of historic Christianity, including, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, etc., except protestants, pray to Mary and other saints asking for their intercession.
The bible shows us that Jesus listens to his Mother, and that she will
intercede for men. John 2:5 His mother said to the servants,
"Whatever He says to you, do it."
Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same
way that you might ask someone to pray for you.
Protestants sometimes object that "the dead cannot hear your prayers".
The bible clearly indicates that the saints in heaven are well aware of us. See the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man: Luke 16:27-31.

The bible also tells us that the saints know our prayers: Rev 5:8.

The bible also says that the saints in heaven know what many have done, not just themselves: Luke 12:2-3.

The bible also says that angels do God's bidding and that we can pray to angels: Psalm 103:20-21, Psalm 148: 1-2, Matt 18:10.

The bible teaches us intercessory prayer: 1Tim 2:1-4, Matt 5:44-45.


Why do Catholics call Mary "Blessed" and have devotions to her like the rosary?
In the bible, it is specifically stated Mary is "blessed":

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
Luke 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luke 1:45 "Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord."
In the bible, it is specifically stated that Mary will be called "blessed" by all generations:

Luke 1:48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
The begged question here is: Why do protestants not refer to Mary as
"The Blessed Virgin Mary", since there is preponderance of biblical justification to do so?


Where does the "Hail Mary" come from; is it scriptural?
Yes the "Hail Mary" is scriptural.
Hail, (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee; (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (,Jesus) (v.42)
Holy Mary (v.30), Mother of God (v.43)
pray for us sinners (as we pray for each other: 1Tim 2:1-4) now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[Confusion]

Now Im just bored and using google

He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:28, 47),
made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42),
and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48).
At the end of her life he took her, body and soul, into heaven
an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:12).

Why do Catholics Worship Mary?
Catholics do not worship Mary or anyone or any thing
other than God. To otherwise assert is
intellectually dishonest.
Veneration, or honor is not worship.
To "honor" is recommended by the bible: Mark 7:10
Catholics honor Mary because she is the Mother of God.
The bible tells us that she is "blessed amoung women":
Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her,
"Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you;
blessed are you among women!"


Why do Catholics call Mary the Mother of God?
To begin with, the Bible says so:
Luke 1:43 "But why is this granted to me, that the
mother of my Lord should come to me?
The Council of Ephesus settled this question in the year 431.
It is the protestants who have no memory of the Church of Christ
if they do not know this.


Why do Catholics believe that Mary was Immaculately Conceived?
First of all: Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing will be impossible."
Elizabeth says to her, "Blessed are you among women..." Luke 1:41-42. Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore speaking without error, says that she is the most blessed of all women. This includes Eve, who was born without sin. Mary is more blessed than Eve, and is therefore born, also, without original sin.
The Angel Gabriel proclaimed that she was full of grace: Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
She is the "woman" in enmity with Satan:

Gen 3:15: And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel. (Note: the Seed is Christ)
Mary was still saved by Christ in her preservation from sin.
Mary is the "Ark of the New Covenant" Hebrews 9:4

She was made to hold the living Word of God (ten commandments)
Who is the High Priest (rod of Aaron)
Who is the Bread of Life (manna)
As the "Ark of the Covenant", she is pure. (without sin)


Who do Catholics believe that Mary was a Perpetual Virgin?
First of all, all Christians believed this up to the
Reformation. Even Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli also defended
the Perpetual Virginity of our Blessed Mother.
The bibles frequently has the word "brother", but this word
is very loosely used throughout the bible to mean "kin", or "clansman".

Genesis 14:14 "Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed
his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house,
and went in pursuit as far as Dan." This passage refers to Abrams "nephew", not "brother".
Other translations say "kinsman". Therefore use of the word "brother" does not mean that Jesus had any siblings.

On the cross, Jesus gave his mother, Mary, to John. Jewish law required Him to give His mother to a brother. There was no brother. That's why He gave her to John, who represents the Church.
Further information on: Jesus Did Not Have Brothers


Why do Catholics pray to Mary when 1 Tim 2:5 says that there is only one
mediator between God and man and that is Christ?
The word pray does not mean worship. Catholics do not worship Mary or any saint.
We are not referring to "Redemption", we are referring to intercessory prayer (see below).
All of historic Christianity, including, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, etc., except protestants, pray to Mary and other saints asking for their intercession.
The bible shows us that Jesus listens to his Mother, and that she will
intercede for men. John 2:5 His mother said to the servants,
"Whatever He says to you, do it."
Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same
way that you might ask someone to pray for you.
Protestants sometimes object that "the dead cannot hear your prayers".
The bible clearly indicates that the saints in heaven are well aware of us. See the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man: Luke 16:27-31.

The bible also tells us that the saints know our prayers: Rev 5:8.

The bible also says that the saints in heaven know what many have done, not just themselves: Luke 12:2-3.

The bible also says that angels do God's bidding and that we can pray to angels: Psalm 103:20-21, Psalm 148: 1-2, Matt 18:10.

The bible teaches us intercessory prayer: 1Tim 2:1-4, Matt 5:44-45.


Why do Catholics call Mary "Blessed" and have devotions to her like the rosary?
In the bible, it is specifically stated Mary is "blessed":

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
Luke 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luke 1:45 "Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord."
In the bible, it is specifically stated that Mary will be called "blessed" by all generations:

Luke 1:48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
The begged question here is: Why do protestants not refer to Mary as
"The Blessed Virgin Mary", since there is preponderance of biblical justification to do so?


Where does the "Hail Mary" come from; is it scriptural?
Yes the "Hail Mary" is scriptural.
Hail, (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee; (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (,Jesus) (v.42)
Holy Mary (v.30), Mother of God (v.43)
pray for us sinners (as we pray for each other: 1Tim 2:1-4) now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I feel like abusin google, so

http://www.staycatholic.com/mary.htm

http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/mary/



opps... my apologies... thought I hit edit... Didn't realized I quoted... Sorry about that

 

[Gary]

Mary or the Holy Spirit?

John 16:5-15 The Work of the Holy Spirit

5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Interesting that Jesus said he would sent the Holy Spirit, the Counselor, the Spirit of truth..... "He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." No mention of Mary.

So as no Roman Catholic is prepared to tell us what Mary is saying to them, let us rather look to the Bible and see what it teaches us about the Spirit of truth who takes what is Jesus' and makes it known to us...

• The Holy Spirit dwells in us (John 14:16-17 Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 6:19), convicts us of sin (John 16:7-11), gives us new life (John 3:5-6 Titus 3:5), makes us realize God's love (Romans 5:5), gives us power to witness (Acts 1:8 Acts 6:9-10), teaches us what to say (Luke 12:12), reveals God's secrets to us (1 Corinthians 2:10-16), brings Christ's presence to us (John 14:16-18), keeps us in touch with God (Romans 8:26 Jude 1:20), teaches us about Christ (John 14:26 John 15:26), enables us to find the truth (1 John 4:1-6), encourages us (Acts 9:31), controls us (Romans 8:9), gives us joy and peace (Romans 14:17), draws us into fellowship (2 Corinthians 13:14 Philippians 2:1), enables us to live a Christian life (Romans 8:5-9), works his fruit in us (Galatians 5:16-25), sanctifies us (Romans 15:16 2 Thessalonians 2:13), gives us gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-11), gives us His sword to fight satan (Ephesians 6:17), prays for us in times of crisis (Romans 8:26) and the Holy Spirit will raise us from the dead (Romans 8:11).

Does Mary do any of the above? If so, please quote a few verses.

:-? :-? :-?

 

[Gary]

Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same way that you might ask someone to pray for you.

I disagree. Roman Catholics PRAY TO Mary. I do not pray to my friend.

 

[Confusion]

Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same way that you might ask someone to pray for you.

I disagree. Roman Catholics PRAY TO Mary. I do not pray to my friend.

O... Sorry, I didn't know you were a current practicing Roman Catholic...

You seem to be self-hating though.

 

[Gary]

(1) Roman Catholics pray to Mary. I am not a Roman Catholic neither do I pray to Mary.

(2) I do not pray to my friend. I speak to my friend. I doubt Roman Catholics pray to their friends either.

(3) Therefore the analogy of Roman Catholics praying to Mary being the same as asking my friend to pray for me is not valid.

Understand yet?

 

[Confusion]

I will be stubborn on this one...
The statement was "Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same way that you might ask someone to pray for you."

Now... You say "I disagree. Roman Catholics PRAY TO Mary."

Well... You see... "I disagree" means that You do not agree with what I had posted. Now, because of this, we find out how you think.

I'm sorry to say Gary, but the world does not revovled around you and your opinions.
Just because you have an opinion on a matter does not make it so.

I am not a Roman Catholic neither do I pray to Mary.

More power to you Gary. I don't pray TO Mary either... I ask Mary and the other saints to pray for me, my loved ones, and everyone in the world... Yes, including you Gary.

(3) Therefore the analogy of Roman Catholics praying to Mary being the same as asking my friend to pray for me is not valid.

I mean, yes I agree with you that statement... Because that is not the same statement I made. The statement I posted was:

Catholics ask Mary and other saints to pray for them, in the same way that you might ask someone to pray for you.

See... It says ASK Mary and other saints to pray for them...
Not Pray TO Mary...

It may take a while for somethings to sink in so please feel free to re-read them a few times till you get it.

Im not expecting your replies to be right off the bat... You may take time to re-read, research, check out links, ect...

(Be happy I didn't through in how you think your God if you know what 1.3+ billion people say in their prayers)

 

[Gary]

Are you denying that Roman Catholics pray to Mary?

Roman Catholics do not "ask" Mary... they pray to Mary. Here are some of the prayers that Roman Catholics pray to Mary.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

Notice the name of the link? PrayerstoMary i.e. Prayers to Mary.

Now go to the link. See the title? It is...
Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Are you still denying that Roman Catholics pray to Mary?



Still confused? Read the RCC's second Bible, the CCC. Go to #2675, #2676, etc. Read about prayer to Mary.

".... the Churches developed their prayer to the Holy Mother of God..." #2675

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[Heidi]

Jesus was the Son of God, Orthodox, remember?

Jesus IS the Son of God, Heidi, and He ever shall be, no matter how much you try to shove Him off the throne so you can sit in judgement.

He tells us "A student cannot be greater than his teacher." If you think that Mary was wiser than the Son of God,

Stop there, this is just stupid. No where did I say anything of the sort- either you're trolling, or you're not well.

then you do indeed worship Mary more than Christ! But we humans who were not conceived from God himself and are not better than our parents. Jesus was! I'm sorry that you don't think so.

Further inane commentary, based upon a sentiment I've never held or expressed. Care to ever respond to my lucid comments from my last post, or shall we just anticipate more cacophonous bedlam?

Do you pray to President Bush?

President Bush is a Zionist Evangelical with the blood of tens of thousands of Iraqis on his hands, and the blood of Sudanese he will not lift a finger to save all over his clothing. I pray that men like Bush and Clinton are no longer promoted to the highest office in the world.

I pray TO one person, heidi, see if you can wrap your mind around that.

You haven't a clue what prayer is and you dishonor God by praying to human beings just like you pray to God. So what treatment can you give God that is better than the treatment you give to human beings? How do you show him more honor than you show human beings? Or don't you think he deserves more honor??????

This is like explaining rainbows to Stevie Wonder.

Please answer the above question.

My prayer relationship with God is to be a private matter, done in secret, not to impress humans, Heidi. It will not be fodder here.

If you have to lie in your responses, then they're not valid, orthodox. All I stand for is Jesus Christ and you know it. But you have no rebuttal against what I said which is why you replace it with an attack.

My statement about a student not being greater than his master is referring to Jesus honoring his mother & father. But you are incapable of understanding that analogy. Again, attacks now are your only rebuttal which makes you not credible.

Another good evasion. Again, how do you show God more honor than Mary? You again have no answer without incriminating yourself so you attack again. That's how I know you're being convicted. When nothing of substance is left but attacks, then a person is backed into a corner, and has no way out but attacks. I will respond to no more of your posts unless they have anything of substance to say except baseless attacks.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

If you have to lie in your responses, then they're not valid, orthodox. All I stand for is Jesus Christ and you know it.

On the contrary, I do not see you standing for Jesus Christ-
I see you standing for YOU Heidi, and against those who think or believe at some variance with you. I see Jesus as being nothing more than a prop in your attacks against people.

But you have no rebuttal against what I said which is why you replace it with an attack.

Clearly the irony of your statement escapes you.

My statement about a student not being greater than his master is referring to Jesus honoring his mother & father. But you are incapable of understanding that analogy. Again, attacks now are your only rebuttal which makes you not credible.

Yours was not an analogous response, Heidi, it was a thinly veiled excuse for you dishonoring Mary and Lord knows who else. Rest assured, Jesus honored His mother, and He honored her prayer requests. If you doubt this, look at John 2, wedding at Canaa.

Another good evasion. Again, how do you show God more honor than Mary? You again have no answer without incriminating yourself so you attack again. That's how I know you're being convicted. When nothing of substance is left but attacks, then a person is backed into a corner, and has no way out but attacks. I will respond to no more of your posts unless they have anything of substance to say except baseless attacks.

You've stated this before, Heidi, when confronted with your own modus operandi. It is not backing someone into a corner when you make unfounded claims about them dishonoring God and being an idolater. It is not backing someone into a corner to distort the clearly articulated beliefs and practices of another forum member. It's not backing someone into a corner to connect their practices with the Nazis.
No, all of these are simply slander and ad hominem attack, poorly performed.

So let's not see you take the position of the damsel in distress here, flinching under the heavy hand of one you deem heretic, idolater, and Nazi. Either change your tactics, or eat the crop you sowed liberally.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I will keep this very simple for you OC....

Roman Catholics do not "ask" Mary... they pray to Mary. I have already shown you that. I have already shown you the prayers that Roman Catholics pray to Mary. Several times. Proof?
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

Notice the name of the link? PrayerstoMary i.e. Prayers to Mary.

Now go to the link. See the title? It is...
Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Scroll down a bit and you will see:

[quote="Prayers to Mary":6adb6]Morning consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and possession.
Amen

I prefer to pray to God and to devote myself to God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I also prefer to call on the Helper that Jesus sent, the Holy Spirit.

But I guess you find that devoting and offering yourself to Mary and praying to Mary more Scriptural. Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

:bday: :bday: :bday:[/quote:6adb6]
It took me exactly 12 seconds on that site to scan 3 of those prayers and find the following refrain "pray for us."

As I stated before-
1. They do not mean prayer TO Mary in the sense that you mean pray to
2. I am not Roman Catholic, and feel, as I stated quite clearly before, that the one prayer of devotion to Mary blurs, to me, some pretty black and white lines. It is important in contemporary English, which is extremely specific, to be specific and clear. I am devoted to my wife, but not in the same manner that I am to God. What do the Catholics mean when they pray that prayer? I'd like to know.

And that's the chief difference between I and thou, Gary- I try to understand people before I snap off a judgement.

Perhaps a Roman Catholic could explain what they mean by "devotion" to Mary?? We Orthodox are devoted to the Saints, but in the same sense that I am devoted to any friend. I am my wife's "possession" also, but only in a certain sense. In the truest sense, I belong only to God. So what do Catholics mean or think of when they pray this?

Edit: Here is a proper icon of Mary the Theotokos, with Christ at the center, because He is always at the center of everything. You will notice that He has the proportions of an adult, yet is pictured as achild (which He was. In the arc/halo above Him is written in letters too small to read on this forum the Greek O Ohn, which means "I Am."