To those who pray to Mary...

[Gary]

Stll unanswered...

Ever read any of Norman Geisler's books?

:-?

 

[CatholicXian]

I am assuming this post was directed to me...

I am sure IF there were other verses that even remotely suggested prayers to Mary that you would have quoted them. You know as well as I do that there are no further verses that, even with the normal bending and twisting by Roman Catholics, can suggest prayers to Mary. Read you own "second Bible", the CCC. You will quickly see that there are no other verses. Try #2673 - #2682.

You are SURE? Gary, I'm in college-- in the midst of exams no less! I take a study break for an hour or so & get online... complain all you want and assume that I have nothing further to say, but the fact of the matter is I have very little time to fully address your concerns and yet at the same time study for an exam!

The pratice of intercessory prayer is seen all throughout Scripture. Rather than having me "prove" it exists in Heaven... perhaps you could point me to JUST one passage that would seem to suggest such prayer ceases in Heaven? I believe the burden of proof is on you (and other evangelical protestants) to show WHY one should believe that intercessory prayer ceases by those who are in Heaven.

But, since you insist upon on my demonstrations, I'll tell you what... I'm finished with exams Tuesday (but then have to travel back home)-- and I'll set up a topic on intercessory prayer with lots and lots of Scripture verses.. though you still never answered, Gary... what's the quota? If you can answer me that, I'll try and have it all up by Wednesday. Sooner if my next study session goes better than I think.

Let's look at 2673-282 in the Catechism:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P9F.HTM

2673 In prayer, the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties." Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she "shows the way" (hodigitria), and is herself "the Sign" of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

2678 Medieval piety in the West developed the prayer of the rosary as a popular substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours. In the East, the litany called the Akathistos and the Paraclesis remained closer to the choral office in the Byzantine churches, while the Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac traditions preferred popular hymns and songs to the Mother of God. But in the Ave Maria, the theotokia, the hymns of St. Ephrem or St. Gregory of Narek, the tradition of prayer is basically the same.

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

IN BRIEF

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."

2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Gary you're attributing more to Mary than even the Church does! (read below)

All the so-called intersession by Mary on our behalf is a practical denial of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, whose task it is to do this very thing on our behalf! Tell me ONE thing that the Holy Spirit does not do that you try and claim Mary does.

Gary! You can't just accept only bits and pieces of the Catechism that seem to make your logic clear-cut!
It is NOT at all a denial of the Holy Spirit! It is only THROUGH the Holy Spirit (THROUGH God!) that Mary (or any of the other Saints in Heaven) may even think to intercede on our behalf. It is a GRACE! (Go back and read that which I bolded for you from the Catechism).

You have another Roman Catholic dogma with no Scriptural proof. Very sad indeed. Even CCC # 2675 says "....the Chruches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God...." Yes, it is a RCC "development" with no Scriptural backing.

No Scriptural proof is your opinion, Gary. You reject what is there (what was handed down from the early Christians), for the sake of your own, personal, interpretations of Scripture.
Yes, practically all of Christian doctrine has gone through development, Gary! We do not live in a static world! Did the early Christians have to deal IVF, embryonic stem cells, internet issues, etc? No, but we still have to apply Christian truths in the world as it exists today.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Well IF you had even studied his credentials, you MAY have noticed:

Co-chair, The Jesus Seminar, 1985–

That says it all.

By the way, have you read anything written by him?

I have several books about the "Jesus Seminar".

:bday: :bday: :bday:

That was my point Gary- that both Funk and Geisler are clowns with a ton of academic credentials- you're not very astute, are you.

I have read Funk, I've read Spong, I've read Geisler's "chosen but free," and I've read James White's take on Geisler's book.

I've read about the Seminar, and I've read about the form-critical predecessors to the Seminar.

Now: Have you read Schmemman or Ware?

Are you admitting now that you asked questions, Gary? Goodness, you are pwned.

 

[Gary]

....perhaps you could point me to JUST one passage that would seem to suggest such prayer ceases in Heaven?

You are missing the point. You pray to the saints in heaven... that is the issue. There is no example of that in Scripture at all.

While saints are still on this earth, we ask them to pray for us. The Roman Catholics then add another non-Scriptural element of praying to saints who are in heaven. There are no verses in the NT which have believers on earth praying to saints in heaven.

 

[Gary]

Your "fruits" are showing again OC.

You call both Funk and Norman Geisler "clowns." Then you add your typical sarcasm.

But yet again you have failed to prove your point. We both seem to agree that Funk disqualifies himself because of his "work" on the Jesus Seminar. You have yet to show how/why you think Norman Geisler is a "clown."

But it does not matter much. I think we can all see who the real clown is.

:bday: :bday: :bday:

P.S. Still unanswered....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

:wink:

 

[Confusion]

Go to #2675, #2676, etc. Read about prayer to Mary.

".... the Churches developed their prayer to the Holy Mother of God..." #2675

:wink:

Alright, I went there and read the whole section there...

Gary, you truly remind me of a verse in Isiah...

Anyway, I got the whole section for you to save you time... I bolded where you referenced, but like anything, I included the WHOLE paragraph... Half quotes only spread lies and back opinions.

PART FOUR
CHRISTIAN PRAYER

SECTION ONE
PRAYER IN THE CHRISTIAN LIFE

CHAPTER TWO
THE TRADITION OF PRAYER

ARTICLE 2
THE WAY OF PRAYER

2663 In the living tradition of prayer, each Church proposes to its faithful, according to its historic, social, and cultural context, a language for prayer: words, melodies, gestures, iconography. The Magisterium of the Church15 has the task of discerning the fidelity of these ways of praying to the tradition of apostolic faith; it is for pastors and catechists to explain their meaning, always in relation to Jesus Christ.

Prayer to the Father

2664 There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus. The sacred humanity of Jesus is therefore the way by which the Holy Spirit teaches us to pray to God our Father.

Prayer to Jesus

2665 The prayer of the Church, nourished by the Word of God and the celebration of the liturgy, teaches us to pray to the Lord Jesus. Even though her prayer is addressed above all to the Father, it includes in all the liturgical traditions forms of prayer addressed to Christ. Certain psalms, given their use in the Prayer of the Church, and the New Testament place on our lips and engrave in our hearts prayer to Christ in the form of invocations: Son of God, Word of God, Lord, Savior, Lamb of God, King, Beloved Son, Son of the Virgin, Good Shepherd, our Life, our Light, our Hope, our Resurrection, Friend of mankind. . . .

2666 But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: "Jesus," "YHWH saves."16 The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him.17

2667 This simple invocation of faith developed in the tradition of prayer under many forms in East and West. The most usual formulation, transmitted by the spiritual writers of the Sinai, Syria, and Mt. Athos, is the invocation, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners." It combines the Christological hymn of Philippians 2:6-11 with the cry of the publican and the blind men begging for light.18 By it the heart is opened to human wretchedness and the Savior's mercy.

2668 The invocation of the holy name of Jesus is the simplest way of praying always. When the holy name is repeated often by a humbly attentive heart, the prayer is not lost by heaping up empty phrases,19 but holds fast to the word and "brings forth fruit with patience."20 This prayer is possible "at all times" because it is not one occupation among others but the only occupation: that of loving God, which animates and transfigures every action in Christ Jesus.

2669 The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins. Christian prayer loves to follow the way of the cross in the Savior's steps. The stations from the Praetorium to Golgotha and the tomb trace the way of Jesus, who by his holy Cross has redeemed the world.

"Come, Holy Spirit"

2670 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."21 Every time we begin to pray to Jesus it is the Holy Spirit who draws us on the way of prayer by his prevenient grace. Since he teaches us to pray by recalling Christ, how could we not pray to the Spirit too? That is why the Church invites us to call upon the Holy Spirit every day, especially at the beginning and the end of every important action.


If the Spirit should not be worshiped, how can he divinize me through Baptism? If he should be worshiped, should he not be the object of adoration?22
2671 The traditional form of petition to the Holy Spirit is to invoke the Father through Christ our Lord to give us the Consoler Spirit.23 Jesus insists on this petition to be made in his name at the very moment when he promises the gift of the Spirit of Truth.24 But the simplest and most direct prayer is also traditional, "Come, Holy Spirit," and every liturgical tradition has developed it in antiphons and hymns.


Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love.25
Heavenly King, Consoler Spirit, Spirit of Truth, present everywhere and filling all things, treasure of all good and source of all life, come dwell in us, cleanse and save us, you who are All Good.26

2672 The Holy Spirit, whose anointing permeates our whole being, is the interior Master of Christian prayer. He is the artisan of the living tradition of prayer. To be sure, there are as many paths of prayer as there are persons who pray, but it is the same Spirit acting in all and with all. It is in the communion of the Holy Spirit that Christian prayer is prayer in the Church.

In communion with the holy Mother of God

2673 In prayer the Holy Spirit unites us to the person of the only Son, in his glorified humanity, through which and in which our filial prayer unites us in the Church with the Mother of Jesus.27

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she "shows the way" (hodigitria), and is herself "the Sign" of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.30

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . "34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"36 Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word."37 By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing38 to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

2678 Medieval piety in the West developed the prayer of the rosary as a popular substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours. In the East, the litany called the Akathistos and the Paraclesis remained closer to the choral office in the Byzantine churches, while the Armenian, Coptic, and Syriac traditions preferred popular hymns and songs to the Mother of God. But in the Ave Maria, the theotokia, the hymns of St. Ephrem or St. Gregory of Narek, the tradition of prayer is basically the same.

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

IN BRIEF

2680 Prayer is primarily addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particularly by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."

2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3). The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the interior Teacher of Christian prayer.

2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

With just the bolded part, where you say it is prayer TO mary... It says, in the same sentence with no breaks, that this prayer is centered on JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Gary]

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries.

Now maybe you could show me on which verses the RCC "developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God."

Give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

That is the issue. Where are the references to prayers TO Mary?

:wink:

 

[Heidi]

If it's not in the bible, it's a made-up gospel. 2 peter 2:3, when speaking about false teachers, "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian, read #2679 again. With no Scriptural proof, the RCC says "We can pray with and to her." Where is the proof for this practice? Do you not think that at least one of the New Testament writers would have given us SOME indication of this practice?

:-?

 

[Confusion]

Gary, can you give me some links from the Old Testament that proves there is a "New Testament" please? I need them for research and you seem to have all the links.

 

[Gary]

Gary, can you give me some links from the Old Testament that proves there is a "New Testament" please? I need them for research and you seem to have all the links.

Try your second Bible, the CCC!!!



If that does not give you the answer, I will show you the link from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Hint: The link is Jesus Christ (the promised Messiah) and not Mary.

P.S. Keep this thread on "Prayers to Mary". Start another thread in Bible Study if you can't see the link between the Old and the New Testament.

 

[Confusion]

Also, here are some verses you were askin for:

Bible passages Catholics feel are related to Mary
Genesis 3:15, 24:43-46 - Rebecca, 28:12 Jacob's Ladder, 30:13?,
Exodus 3:11-12, 13:2, 13:14 (Magnificat), 15:20, 21, 26 (Magnificat), 25:8 Ark, 34:19-20
Leviticus 12:2, 8 Purfication
Numbers 18:15 Presentation
Judges 6:12, 15 Annunciation
1 Samuel 2:1-10 (Magnificat)
Isaiah 7:14 Virgin Birth
Ezekiel 44:2 (Mary's perpetual Virginity)
Mat 1:16, 18-25 (Mary to be found with Child 2:11, 13-14, 20-23 Maji flight to Egypt 12:46-50 Who is my mother? 13:55 is his mother not Mary?
Mark 3:31-35 Your mother is outside 6:3 is he not son of Mary?
Luke 1:26-56 Annunciation, visitation magnificat 2:5-7, 16-19, 22, 33-35, 39, 41-51 Nativity, shepherds, presentation, finding in the temple 8:19-21 Your mother outside 11:27-28 Blessed is the womb that bore you
Jn 1:14 incarnation 2:1-5 Cana 6:42 Do we not know his mother 19:25-27
Acts 1:14 Gathered in prayer with Mary Gal 4:4 God sent son born of woman
Col 1:15, 18 first born, Head of body
Rev 11:19 Ark in Heaven 12:1-17 Woman clothed with the sun

 

[Confusion]

Gary, can you give me some links from the Old Testament that proves there is a "New Testament" please? I need them for research and you seem to have all the links.

Try your second Bible, the CCC!!!



If that does not give you the answer, I will show you the link from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Hint: The link is Jesus Christ (the promised Messiah) and not Mary.

P.S. Keep this thread on "Prayers to Mary". Start another thread in Bible Study if you can't see the link between the Old and the New Testament.

Seriously... For the last time, stop labeling me as a religion...
Your trying to judge me... Doesn't that go against your bible?

Also, you have been saying repeatedly... It isn't in scripture... It isn't in scripture... It isn't in scripture in this topic...
So this question is on topic.
Please provide me with links that put the Old and New Testament together... Of course, all links will have to come from the Old Testament... To make truth of the New Testament...
I can write the "New New Testament" and say it fufills the New Testament ect... But if it isn't mentioned in the New Testament, it really isn't worth much now...

So, if you wish to continue yelling It isn't in scripute!!! please provide me with links.
I believe I provide about 13... Fair trade shall we call it?

(Note, I've asked at least twice in this thread...)

 

[Gary]

Nope.... STILL no prayers TO Mary in all those references.

That is what this thread is about. Prayers to Mary. If you want to link the Old Testament to the New Testament, please raise a new thread in the "Bible Study" section. Thanks.

 

[Confusion]

Introduction
I have an Evangelical friend who said "When I go to a doctor I don't want to talk to his mother." This Evangelical talks regularly with his pastor and asks the pastor to pray for him. The pastor doesn't turn him away and say, "don't talk to me, don't ask me to pray for you, go straight to Jesus." The pastor "intercedes" (Evangelicals call it "standing in the gap"). He prays for the congregation or individual. He has compassion and wants to assist people in their relationship with Christ. This in no way diminishes Jesus' role as the Lord and Saviour.

Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. We think Mary is a kickin' prayer warrior, even better than Evangelical pastors. Any Evangelical who has sat in on a Rosary will hear us say to Mary "Pray for us sinners."

Mary is a "born again" Christian who received the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost and spoke in tongues 2000 years before Pentecostals got the gift. (Acts 1:14, 2:3) She knows how to pray - yes even in tongues

In Mel Gibson's movie "The Passion", I was floored when I saw Mary at the foot of the Cross. I would like to have that woman pray for me. I ask her to do just that, pray for me. I also ask her to pray for you. I feel her prayers and I thank her for spending so much time praying for our world.

I got an email that said:

Why then would we want to take the focus off of Jesus and pray through Mary, or any one else for that matter? I also see a lot of the issues surrounding Mary as distractions.

I appreciate concern that attention paid to Mary defocuses from Jesus. It is an interesting choice of words because Mary said the opposite about herself. She said "My soul magnifies the Lord." (Lk 1:46) My experience with Mary has actually significantly improved my relationship with my Lord and Saviour. I think time spent with Mary is no more defocusing than time spent with my other Church friends or with my pastor. To me the logical end to the "defocusing" theory is that I should never talk to or pray with any other Christians. It suggests I shouldn't go to prayer groups, or even read the Old Testament (because it predates Christ). The logical conclusion to the "defocusing theory" is that I should only talk with Christ alone and never even talk to another human being. To me, that is a definition of a hermit and although it is a valuable calling, I don't think it is for me.

When I was in the US National tour of "Cat's" my mother did not want to jump on the stage and take my place on the big stage in the spotlight. (although that would have been pretty funny). She wanted everyone to know that her son was in "Cats." She wanted everyone to go see me. That was her role. Mary's role is not to jump on centre stage and take the place of Jesus. She just wants everyone to know about her Son Jesus and she will do anything to help that relationship.

I got an email that said:

... unlike Kings here on earth, God doesn't need a Queen., He has been, He is, and He always will be complete on His own.

Absolutely. God is complete. It is not out of Jesus' incompleteness that he has called angels and saints to join him in ministry. It is not because he is not strong enough and needs help. He could easily snap his fingers and the entire population of the world would suddenly see God and know He exists. He does not need Mary, angels, or saints. Nor does he need you or me. It is not out of his incompleteness that he has invited Mary, the angels, the saints and you ad me to join in his ministry. It is out of his overabundance of Graces. It his generosity, his desire to share his graces, his overflowing goodness, and his great Love for us. The Psalmist said "my cup overflows" (Ps 23). That is what God is. He is overflowing with graces that he shares with his mother and all his children. If he loves you and me so much as to invite us to join in his ministry, I don't think it is hard to imagine that he would invite his mother to join in his ministry.



Catholic vs. the Evangelical approach to the Relationship with Jesus
Scenario 1: If someone falls in love and they say:
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend all my time with you. I never want to talk to your mother. I never want to see your family or friends. I want you to banish them when they come around, I just want to spend my whole life with you and love you.

That's how I understand the Evangelical take on a relationship to Jesus.

Scenario 2; On the other hand he could say
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend my time with you. Your mom is welcome to visit our home. Your family is my family, your friends are my friends. The people you love, I will love. We are one flesh and I welcome everyone you welcome."

I think the second one sounds like a more authentic love. I think is the Catholic approach to a relationship with Jesus.

Another example - a visit to the King.
Scenario 1: I enter the majestic castle. The walls of the court have beautiful tapestries and there are courtiers in long robes. There is beautiful music by court musicians. There are courtiers dressed lavishly in the foyer before entering the kings room. People bow to the courtiers as they go in. At the front of the court there are two chairs. One for the King and one for the queen. Everyone in the court has a great reverence for the queen. They kneel before her they kiss her hand they pick up her robe after her. But they know who has all the authority. It is the King. When they see him they are in awe. They want to serve him. They know he is Lord and that he has all authority. The beautiful queen at his side and the beautiful wall tapestries, lavishly dressed courtiers, and the music, only serve to give greater majesty to the King. Because he is so great, nothing could obscure him. All of this beauty around him only serves to make him more majestic. (I think of this the Catholic model, and also the model of Heaven found in
"Revelation")

Scenario 2: Now let’s go to a big empty room - a warehouse. The walls are barren. No one is there. At the front is the King sitting alone on a plain chair. (I think of this as the Evangelical Model)

What about Catholics who do pray TO Mary?
Many Evangelicals think the word "pray" means "worship." So it makes sense that they think Catholics who "pray" to Mary actually "worship" her. Let's look up the word "pray" in the dictionary. Here is what Webster's says about the word pray:

(1) To utter petition to God ... (2) To make a fervent request: PLEAD (3) To beseech: implore (4) to make a devout or earnest request for.

The first thing to notice is that the word "worship" is not included in the definition of "pray." It does not mean "worship."

The English language is often limited in that we often have to use the same word to say different things. There are several meanings of the word "pray." When Catholics pray to God they "utter a petition to God." When they pray to Mary and the Saints they are making a "devout or earnest request for" prayers from Mary or the saints. In mediaeval times when a royal court official was asking something of a person who outranked him, he would say "I pray thee your majesty." You have to say that in an English accent to get the full effect The person was simply making a request in a polite manner.

Catholics think Mary is a prayer warrior. That's her job. We think she was given a full time 24/7 prayer ministry. She said "all generations will call me Blessed" and "my soul magnifies the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Catholics think this is significant.

Martin Luther said "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522). There is a difference between veneration of Mary and worship of Jesus. John Pacheco says:

There is a great difference between veneration ("douleia" in Greek) and worship ("latreia"). The word "douleia" occurs 5 times in the Bible. (Rm 8:15, 21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15) never does it refer to worship of God. The word "latreia" occurs 5 times but it always refers to God only. (Jn 16:2, Rm:9:4, 12:6, Heb 9:1,6) And there are plenty of Old Testament references that distinguish veneration from worship. "Then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and he bowed down and kissed him.." (Exo 18:7)...(also 1 Chron 29:20, 1 Sam 24:8)

Some say "Consecration" shows that Catholics worship Mary. The word “Consecrate†means to entrust. I entrust myself to my closest trusted friends but only one is my Savior.



If only God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, how does Mary hear "a million" requests for intercession at one time?
I think the best way to respond to this "million prayers at once" objection is to describe something in my life. I have a little computerized recording studio. A friend of mine knows nothing about computers and when he heard my CD he said:

Hey how is it that you are singing all those voices and playing all those instruments at the same time. You are not omnipresent!

I explained to him that it takes me 150 hours to record a 3 minute song. With the computer I record each instrument and voice one after another and then mix them all together into this 3 minute song. So the measure of time I use to record the song is not the measure of time that people perceive when they hear the song on the radio. The recording was not made in "real time."

Heaven is not in "real (earth) time." Heaven is outside of earth time!

On one of my songs I am singing 75 voices and 60 music tracks at the same time. That does not make me "omnipresent!" If I can do this, I think heaven can figure out how to respond to multiple requests for prayer at the same time, because they are not handled according to "earth time."

Catholics don't think people have to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent in order to be in heaven? Scripture tells us there are many levels of authority in heaven. (archangels, angels, cherubim, seraphim, etc.) I think Evangelicals believe angels know what is happening in different parts of the earth at the same time, yet they are not omnipresent. Mary doesn’t need all knowledge or be present everywhere to hear more than one request for intercession at once.

The scientist, Albert Einstein describes the physical universe (our world) in 4 dimensions, length, width, depth and time. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world." If "time" is part of our physical universe and Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world, it makes sense to me that heaven is outside of time. I think most Evangelicals can grasp this concept. So hearing 1,000,000 requests for prayers at one time would be no problem. Just line them up (or whatever). Being out of time is more than sufficient to overcome the standard "million prayers at once" objection. Catholics believe people in heaven are out of time and are enabled to observe and hear what is going on in the earth (which is expressly indicated in Scripture - at least the observing. The "hearing" is a valid deduction). (1)

The universe is a big place. The term "omnipresence" implies being everywhere in the universe and beyond. I think objecting to Mary' intercession because it implies omnipresence is as short-sighted as medieval people thinking the universe revolved around the earth. Mary's ability to hear a bunch of prayers at once doesn't mean she is omnipresent. It just means she is outside of time like everyone else in Heaven.

When I was a baby, God trusted my earthly mother to care for me. That did not make my mom omnipresent, although I thought so when I was a kid God trusted Mary to care for her Son when he was a child. At the foot of the cross Jesus trusted her with the care of John. Catholics think in this gesture Jesus gave Mary as a mother to all humanity.



"I don't pray to dead people"
Some Evangelicals ridicule the Catholic position on Mary. The buzz phrase I often hear is "I don't pray to dead people." Catholics don't think heaven is a "dead" place. Catholics believe people in heaven are alive. (Mat 19:29, 25:46, Mat 10:17-22, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25-30, Lk 18:18-30, Jn 3:15-16). We see Lazarus alive by Abraham's side (Lk 16:22). And at the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mat 17:3) There seems to be a lot of conversing in Heaven in Revelation (i.e. Rev 4:10). The Church thinks heaven is a lively place with lots of singing and stuff. They don't think people in heaven are saying "Hey shut up with the singing will ya, I'm trying to sleep!!!" Jesus opened the gates to Heaven. "Graves of the dead were opened and they went into town to preach the Gospel." (Mat 27:52). Jesus said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive." (Lk 20:39-40)

I recently read an interview with Gracia Burnham. An Evangelical missionary who was held hostage by Muslim terrorists for over a year with her missionary husband. Her husband was shot to death. In this interview she said the following:

Phil Calloway (editor of Servant Magazine-Evangelical): He sounds like an amazing guy. Is he making trouble up in heaven right now? (laughter)

Gracia: I used to tell the kids, I can just imagine your dad pulling on God's sleeves saying, "There's Gracia, she needs a car, she needs something." And then I told the kids why would almighty God who knows us and loves us and died for us need a human to tell him what we need. And I switched my thinking to God pulling on Martin's shirt sleeve and saying, "Hey Martin, look what I'm going to do for Gracia and her family." (Mission Fields Magazine spring 2004, pg 3)

It does not appear that Gracia thinks her husband is in some kind of a coma until the final Judgment. Here is a perfect example of how the Catholic view on death is very prevalent among Evangelicals who have had a loved one die. Sure she distanced herself from her initial instinct of Martin praying for her in heaven, but I think her initial instinct was better. She said "Why would God need a human to tell him what we need." Yet in the same interview she attributes her escape from the terrorists to the faithful prayers of Christians back home.



Isn't the Bible against invoking "the dead"
Some Evangelicals think that asking a person in heaven to intercede for us is condemned in Deuteronomy 18:10-12. The Catholic Church believes that Deuteronomy 18:10-12 speaks about the occult, soothsayers, sorcerers, spells, ghosts and spirits. It is not about heaven, angels and Jesus. Ghosts have not entered into heaven so it would displease God to talk with them. Also this passage occurs before Jesus was on the scene so no one was in heaven. Samuel was in the ground (1 Sam 28:8-25). They were all in Sheol (dead) so the passage makes sense. Leave them in peace.

Catholics believe that it is perfectly safe to ask Christians in heaven to pray for us. Mary's place in heaven is assured and she's not going to do anything dumb like cast an evil spell on us. She's Jesus' Mother! Mary is in Heaven and as such she can be a trusted friend. All Christians are baptised into one Body. I see nothing in Scripture that tells me that that relationship ends after a Christian gets into heaven. Mary is a "born again" Christian who received the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost and spoke in tongues 2000 years before Pentecostals got the gift. (Acts 1:14, 2:3)

Martin Luther said

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. (Sermon, August 15, 1522)

Martin Luther also spoke to her in the first person.

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

Catholics do not think of Mary as a "dead" example of faith. They think of her as a living witness to it.



Doesn't Revelation say not to bow in worship to Angels?
I got an email citing the book of Revelation:

Then I fell at the angel's feet to worship the angel, he said ""You must not do that! [worship me] I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades the prophets, ...(Rev 19:10)

This person was suggesting that it is unscriptural to communicate with anyone in Heaven except Jesus. Let us examine the relationship between John and the angel. The angel is his "fellow servant". The angel was sent by God to give a critical message to John and all Christians: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book." The angel told John to write down what the angel showed him. What was the result?...The Book of Revelation...the Bible, the word of God. Yes, given through an angel.

Revelation opens with this verse...

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...

Why did God use an angel, why did he not do it himself? Why didn't the angel say "hey, don't talk to me, talk to God alone." I suggest that God uses servants...servants who know a lot more than us humans on earth. This takes nothing away from God. It simply reflects his overabundance of grace. I suggest the communication John had with the angel was called prayer.

The passage supports the catholic viewpoint on the role of heavenly servants rather than the contrary position held by some non-denominationalists.

Was John a peer with his "fellow servant?" obviously not! In an army, is a "private" a peer with his fellow soldier who is a "corporal?" No. There is a hierarchy in heaven... archangels, angels, seraphim, cherubim, etc... And at the bottom is us lowly fellow servants on earth. Most evangelical theologians readily preach this hierarchy in heaven and we Catholics think there in nothing whatever unscriptural about communicating with heavenly creatures. Apparently, John, Mary, Zachariah and a ton of other holy servants have no problem with it either. The Bible says so.

God commissioned us to fight the spiritual battle on earth. Catholics don't think he'll decommission us when we get to heaven. I think it is perfectly fitting that God would use the mother of Jesus and spouse of the holy spirit in this battle against Satan and his team of evil spirits. She spoke in tongues at the Pentecost. (Acts 1) Scripture is plain that all generations will call Mary blessed. (Lk 1:48)



How can Mary be in Heaven before the final Judgment?
Some Evangelicals are nervous about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us because the final judgment hasn't occurred yet. (Yet they are certain that a Christian's place in heaven is assured the moment they are "born again.") If there was any doubt about Mary being born again at the foot of the Cross, surely any Evangelical would admit Mary was "Born Again" at the Pentecost when she got hit by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:14, 2:3). She spoke in tongues that day. (Acts 2:6)

At every Evangelical funeral I hear people saying "He is with the Lord now." They are confident the person is in heaven We Catholics think the faithful guy who "dies" is dancing and singing and rejoicing in heaven. If a faithful Christian is alive in heaven, why would we not ask for them to pray for us. And Catholics don't think any Christian has ever been more faithful than Mary.

A Biblical discussion of this stuff is in the section on Saints. And also in Are Catholics "Born Again?" (Don't worry we Catholics are into a personal relationship with Christ, I have a great relationship with Him. Honest...Jesus Rocks!)

All this to say that Catholics think it is perfectly safe to ask someone in heaven to pray for us. Especially a prayer warrior like Mary.



In Catholicism Jesus in the Eucharist takes centre stage.
Another thing to take into consideration before dismissing Catholics who pray with Mary (or the saints) is that in Catholicism the highest form of devotion is to Christ living in the Eucharist. (Those who think the Eucharist is a pagan sun-god may want to read this) Evangelicals don't believe in the "real" presence of Jesus, so any kind of honour given to Mary or a saint appears to put them on an equal footing with Jesus. Catholics believe the Eucharist is Christ in the flesh. Given this, every other form of devotion pales in comparison. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords above all else. The angels, saints and Mary are just his helpers as we Christians on earth are also helpers in Jesus' work. In the context of the Eucharist, any prayer to Mary or the saints is clearly a request for help. It is not a request for salvation. Jesus is the one and only Saviour and the Catholic Church has always taught that.

St. Louis de Montford was probably the most "Marian" of all the Saints. He said "If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it..." (True Devotion 62) He goes on to say that devotion to Mary does not do this. Mary said "my soul Magnifies the Lord." She did not say "my soul obscures the Lord." She said this immediately after Elizabeth called her "Mother of my Lord" (Lk 1:43) Some Evangelicals say it is blasphemous to be "devoted" to Mary. Yet these same people would say they are "devoted" to their wives or husbands or children or even their jobs. Devotion does not deify something or someone, it only acknowledges a deep respect.

We do not slight the Son when we honour the Mother. (True Devotion 94)



Christ is the Centre
There is no other way of Christian prayer than Christ. Whether our prayer is communal or personal, vocal or interior, it has access to the Father only if we pray "in the name" of Jesus... to invoke him (Catechism 2665-2666)

The Catholic Church is clear about the centrality of Jesus. The Saints are simply "alumni" in the "university of life" who are there to help Jesus in the same way the angels help. Pope John Paul II wrote in his Message to World Youth day 2000 the following:

"The Cross, which seems to rise up from the earth, in actual fact reaches down from heaven, enfolding the universe in a divine embrace. The Cross reveals itself to be the centre, meaning and goal of all history and every human life."



Lumen Gentium
I've snipped a few passages from the Lumen Gentium, an official document of the Church from Vatican II. It is often quoted by Evangelicals for its" Queen of Heaven" statement. I think the document accurately make clear Jesus’ authority over heaven and earth:

60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all." (298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows his power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. (298 1 Tim. 2, 5-6).

62. ...For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, ...The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary.

67. .. But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, ... rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.


An invitation - Pray to Jesus about Mary
I hope I have not caused anxiety with this article. I wish only to help build a bridge between Catholics and Protestants. I don't believe that avoiding Mary will help build this bridge. I can't see this issue going away, at least in my own life and in the lives of the millions of Christians who are alive in the spirit of Christ and have been enriched by their relationship to Mary. Time spent with Mary does not take away from Jesus anymore than time spent with other Christians.

I would like to conclude with an invitation. It may be very difficult and perhaps impossible for some. I would like to ask you to forget everything you have ever heard about Mary, everything that you have ever read about her, including what I have said here.

I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus. Most Christians would agree that it is completely safe to pray to Jesus about anything. I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus about Mary. Simply ask Jesus to show you the truth about his mother. Ask Him to direct your thinking about her. Ask Jesus if his mother is alive with Him. Ask Him if Mary is praying for us. Just pray to Jesus about her. Try this every night for six weeks. I am thoroughly convinced that He will bring you to the truth about his mother.

 

[Confusion]

Also, I realize you most likely will skim that whole thing, so here is a part just for you

Many Evangelicals think the word "pray" means "worship." So it makes sense that they think Catholics who "pray" to Mary actually "worship" her. Let's look up the word "pray" in the dictionary. Here is what Webster's says about the word pray:

(1) To utter petition to God ... (2) To make a fervent request: PLEAD (3) To beseech: implore (4) to make a devout or earnest request for.

The first thing to notice is that the word "worship" is not included in the definition of "pray." It does not mean "worship."

The English language is often limited in that we often have to use the same word to say different things. There are several meanings of the word "pray." When Catholics pray to God they "utter a petition to God." When they pray to Mary and the Saints they are making a "devout or earnest request for" prayers from Mary or the saints. In mediaeval times when a royal court official was asking something of a person who outranked him, he would say "I pray thee your majesty." You have to say that in an English accent to get the full effect The person was simply making a request in a polite manner.

Catholics think Mary is a prayer warrior. That's her job. We think she was given a full time 24/7 prayer ministry. She said "all generations will call me Blessed" and "my soul magnifies the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Catholics think this is significant.

Martin Luther said "The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." (Sermon, September 1, 1522). There is a difference between veneration of Mary and worship of Jesus. John Pacheco says:

There is a great difference between veneration ("douleia" in Greek) and worship ("latreia"). The word "douleia" occurs 5 times in the Bible. (Rm 8:15, 21; Gal 4:24, 5:1; Heb 2:15) never does it refer to worship of God. The word "latreia" occurs 5 times but it always refers to God only. (Jn 16:2, Rm:9:4, 12:6, Heb 9:1,6) And there are plenty of Old Testament references that distinguish veneration from worship. "Then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and he bowed down and kissed him.." (Exo 18:7)...(also 1 Chron 29:20, 1 Sam 24:8)

Some say "Consecration" shows that Catholics worship Mary. The word “Consecrate†means to entrust. I entrust myself to my closest trusted friends but only one is my Savior.

 

[Gary]

Thanks Confusion.

Please give a reference to the site/link where you copy-n-pasted from. Thanks.

P.S. In that long copy-paste, there is STILL no reference to any verses which show prayer TO Mary. Do you not think that is significant?

 

[Confusion]

Thanks Confusion.

Please give a reference to the site/link where you copy-n-pasted from. Thanks

I will at a later date... Closed the site a few minutes ago... I should be able to find it eventually...
Though I give credit to David for writing that (He didn't post last name in what I read) and his site will be linked once found.

 

[Confusion]

P.S. In that long copy-paste, there is STILL no reference to any verses which show prayer TO Mary. Do you not think that is significant?

Did you read it?

Also, Can I get some of the links from the OT showing the NT to be true? I've yet to see any... I would find that extremely more significant...

Also, do you believe in the Trinity?
That is not in the Gospel. So... I hope you don't...

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Your "fruits" are showing again OC.

You call both Funk and Norman Geisler "clowns." Then you add your typical sarcasm.

But yet again you have failed to prove your point. We both seem to agree that Funk disqualifies himself because of his "work" on the Jesus Seminar. You have yet to show how/why you think Norman Geisler is a "clown."

But it does not matter much. I think we can all see who the real clown is.

:bday: :bday: :bday:

P.S. Still unanswered....

• Maybe you could, finally, give us a few verses which show us how Jesus or Matthew or Mark or Luke or John or Paul or James or Peter or Jude taught us to pray to Mary and to consecrate ourselves to Mary.

:wink:

All this discussion of fruits, which you end by winking at me.
That, on the heels of a thinly veiled insult. What a prancing, mincing, pouting little hypocrite you are, Gary

I do not intend answering any of your posts. I find your style abusive and intolerant. I have found your personal attacks blah, blah, blah.

Thanks ... but no thanks.

Regards

yes, Gary, how far thou art fallen.

Anyway, Geisler discharges to his disciples- rubes like you- the notion that Catholics pray to dead people. But he does not hold to the notion of 'soul sleep,' nor does he believe for one second that Catholics try to contact the dead by asking them to pray for them.

You can stamp your feet as much as you like, Gary, and I won't be answering your strawman question. Silly, sill boy-