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TOTAL DEPRAVITY

I already gave you the answer in my reply.

Let me help...

Unfortunately for those who follow the teachings of Calvinism totally and utterly mean the same thing.



IMG_1389.jpeg


At the end of the day, the scriptures teach us the truth.


Only by hearing and believing the Gospel are people saved… not by being elected to be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God loves the world and desires the world of unsaved people to be saved.
 
At least you see, or at least displaying how using non scriptural words and terms leads to more and more confusion where you just resort to a “word salad” of that has nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


Do you believe this scripture?
What does this have to do with my reply.

Are you suggesting only the teachings of Christ are relevant?

If so, why would He give pastor/teachers?
 
In all honesty I do not see the confusion.

Confusion comes in when people use the Bible "only" to discuss doctrines.

I have stressed the importance of Systematic and other theologies based on the Bible in the past.

Also hermeneutics play the biggest part in interpreation if you ask me.

The word hermeneutic is not found in the Bible. Is that considered non biblical to you?

Check this out.......

What Are the Various Major Kinds of Theology?

1. Biblical theology: The organization of Scripture thematically by biblical chronology or by biblical author with respect to the progressive revelation of the Bible (properly a component of systematic theology)

2. Dogmatic theology: The organization of Scripture with an emphasis on favored or selected church creeds

3. Exegetical theology: The methodical organization of Scripture by dealing exegetically with individual texts of the Bible (properly a component of both biblical and systematic theology)

4. Historical theology: The historical study of doctrinal developments after the apostolic era to the present time

5. Natural theology: The study of what can be known about God by human reason alone through the empirical study of the natural world

6. Pastoral/practical theology: The organization of Scripture with an emphasis on the personal application of doctrinal truth in the lives of the church and individual Christians

7. Systematic theology: The organization of Scripture by a synthesis of scriptural teaching, summarized using major categories that encompass the entirety of God’s written revelation (developed from exegetical and biblical theology)

What Is Systematic Theology?

The term systematic comes from the compound Greek word made up of syn, “together,” and histanai, “to set up,” meaning “to set up together” or “to systematize.” As noted above, theology comes from the Greek word theologia, “a word about god,” meaning “theology.” Etymologically, systematic theology involves the orderly bringing together of words about God or a bringing together of theology in an organized fashion. Consider Charles Spurgeon’s response to those who object to a systematic approach to theology:

Systematic theology is to the Bible what science is to nature. To suppose that all the other works of God are orderly and systematic, and the greater the work the more perfect the system: and that the greatest of all His works, in which all His perfections are transcendently displayed, should have no plan or system, is altogether absurd.4

Systematic theology answers the question, what does the completed canon of Scripture teach about any one theme or topic? For example, what does the Bible teach from Genesis to Revelation about the deity of Jesus Christ? A basic definition of systematic theology, then, would be “the ordered exposition of Christian doctrines.”5

A systematic theology must display (1) hermeneutical integrity, (2) doctrinal coherence, (3) ethical relevance, (4) worldview explicability, and (5) traditional continuity. Where these are present and operative, one will find a good systematizing that will be of value to the expositor. As he carefully examines every detail of the text in preparation to expound it, systematic theology allows him to also view the whole theological picture—one that has taken into account not only the studied conclusions from church history but also the progress of revelation culminating in the complete revelation of God.6 (For a chronological overview of the progress of revelation, see the appendix).



4 Charles Spurgeon, as quoted in Iain H. Murray, The Forgotten Spurgeon (London: Banner of Truth, 1973), 9.

5 James L. Garrett, Systematic Theology: Biblical, Historical, and Evangelical (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1990), 1:8.

6 This insight came from our colleague Trevor Craigen, retired Master’s Seminary professor of theology.

<sup>[1]</sup> John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue, eds., Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2017), 35–36.

All these things come from man; the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Jesus is our Lord.

Jesus is our Teacher.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27
 
What does this have to do with my reply.

Are you suggesting only the teachings of Christ are relevant?

If so, why would He give pastor/teachers?

So they can teach people what Christ teaches them which is in the New Testament.


Feeding babes until they are old enough to feed themselves.


Teachers are awesome if they are teaching the truth.


If you still need a teacher to feed you then you may not understand.
 
What does this have to do with my reply.

Are you suggesting only the teachings of Christ are relevant?

If so, why would He give pastor/teachers?
If the Spirit has drawn you to Christ in the way you suggest, has He also led you to know the truth about Him?
 
Are you suggesting only the teachings of Christ are relevant?

Not only are the teachings of Christ relevant but carefully read what the scripture plainly says.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

What does the phrase… does not have God, mean to you?

Can a person have eternal life without God?


Any Bible teacher that does not teach what the scriptures teach is not teaching the doctrine of Christ.
 
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God loves the world and desires the world of unsaved people to be saved.
Take note that the above passage says "God so loved the world---". What it does not say is that "God so lived every person in the world." God gave Jesus to the world. And those who believe in him have everlasting life.

Who created the world?

Who owns the world?

Who governs the world and is sovereign over it?

Who is restoring the world? (Is 11;Rev 21)

Who brought evil (all sin) into the world?

How is the world being restored?

So John 3:16 cannot be used as a way of denying either total depravity or of God's election to salvation of those he chooses to save. If you want to do that, you must show that the "whoever believes" are doing so by choosing to believe, and that they have the ability and desire to do so. Good luck. And it needs to be done with thoughtful and accurate exegesis.
 
Right, God initiates and does the work of salvation.

You should study the word "draws" in John 6:44, you might be surprised of the meaning.
One way to understand what Christ says about the Father drawing men to Christ is that the Father has spoken in the past by inspired men who were prophets.
These prophets spoke not of their own but as it is said, the Father spoke by them.
So, the prophets who spoke of Christ were speaking by the Father.
It is therefore the Father drawing men to Christ.
It is also said that the Father speaks through His Son.
So again, the Father is drawing men to Christ by the words Christ spoke.

Another way to understand it is the Calvinist way. Where the Father is literally and directly dragging men to Christ.
 
All these things come from man; the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Jesus is our Lord.

Jesus is our Teacher.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27
So how do you put together sound doctrine?

How do you interpret Scripture?

And you cannot use the following Scripture to justify your thoughts.

John 14:26 “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
 
Unfortunately for those who follow the teachings of Calvinism totally and utterly mean the same thing.



View attachment 17540


At the end of the day, the scriptures teach us the truth.


Only by hearing and believing the Gospel are people saved… not by being elected to be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God loves the world and desires the world of unsaved people to be saved.
That was not my reply.

Why are you being dishonest?

Try again.....

To most persons “total” means “utterly,” and utter depravity would mean that people are as bad as they can possibly be. That is not true, of course.
 
So they can teach people what Christ teaches them which is in the New Testament.


Feeding babes until they are old enough to feed themselves.


Teachers are awesome if they are teaching the truth.


If you still need a teacher to feed you then you may not understand.


Feeding babes until they are old enough to feed themselves.
If you still need a teacher to feed you then you may not understand.

This explains a lot.

Are you saying mature Christians do not need Pastors/teachers?
 
If the Spirit has drawn you to Christ in the way you suggest, has He also led you to know the truth about Him?
Yes.

It was not my wretched humanity that is for certain.
 
Not only are the teachings of Christ relevant but carefully read what the scripture plainly says.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

What does the phrase… does not have God, mean to you?

Can a person have eternal life without God?


Any Bible teacher that does not teach what the scriptures teach is not teaching the doctrine of Christ.
Are you a "Jesus only" and deny the rest of the Scriptures?

In other words, only the words in red are to teach us, not the rest of the Bible.
 
One way to understand what Christ says about the Father drawing men to Christ is that the Father has spoken in the past by inspired men who were prophets.
These prophets spoke not of their own but as it is said, the Father spoke by them.
So, the prophets who spoke of Christ were speaking by the Father.
It is therefore the Father drawing men to Christ.
It is also said that the Father speaks through His Son.
So again, the Father is drawing men to Christ by the words Christ spoke.

Another way to understand it is the Calvinist way. Where the Father is literally and directly dragging men to Christ.
Well, it sure was not your free will that you chose God.

What is your understanding of regeneration (born again, new birth)?
 
That is an interesting term to use.

Indeed, sin affects every aspect of human nature, mind, will and emotions.

Of course there are many who deny this.
Well, Romans 1:18--3:20 doesn't deny it. But it doesn't mean that humans are completely evil but that the good they do is pervasively self-centered.
 
Well, it sure was not your free will that you chose God.

What is your understanding of regeneration (born again, new birth)?
I became interested in Christianity because it seemed to me that those with faith had courage.
 
Well, Romans 1:18--3:20 doesn't deny it. But it doesn't mean that humans are completely evil but that the good they do is pervasively self-centered.
That is the point.

Those who believe in total depravity do not believe that humans are completely evil.

Humans do good works, but that is motivated by pride and selfishness (sin).
 
Would you say then that if someone doesn’t know Christ the way God has led you to know him that they have not been drawn to Christ by the Father?
I do not follow.
 
Job was not totally depraved, though he was not a post-Calvary, born-again, spiritually-regenerated man.

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.


Noah wasn't a totally depraved man, though, like Job, he wasn't a post-Calvary, born-again child of God.

Genesis 6:8-9
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


How about Daniel? He wasn't born-again. Was he totally depraved? No. Instead, God puts him on par with Noah and Job, implying that Daniel was very righteous, not totally depraved.

Ezekiel 14:14
14 even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:20
20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, says the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.


These verses are part of a warning issued by God through Ezekiel, the prophet, in which God said that if Israel "trespassed grievously" (Ezekiel 14:13) against Himself even the great righteousness of Noah, Job and Daniel would not be sufficient to forestall God's wrathful punishment of Israel but would be able only to deliver the three men themselves.

King David was a "man after mine own heart" God said through the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 13:14; Acts 13:22) but David wasn't a born-again man.

Cornelius, a Roman centurion, though not a born-again believer was still described in Scripture as,

Acts 10:2
2 A devout man, and one who feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.


The idea of total depravity is nowhere explicitly stated in God's word. Instead, we have these examples of men who were quite the opposite without being born-again spiritually.
How do you know for sure that they weren't born-again through faith in the future Messiah? What do you think about the people of faith described in Hebrews 11? Weren't they born-again by God's Spirit, since God gave them faith? Of course, Cornelius wasn't born-again until Peter's visit; you're right about him, but the others were born-again.
 
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