TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Whatever]

I believe that "total depravity" really means "pervasive depravity

Yes, the "total" simply means that the sinfulness has effected the total man. His heart, conscience, desires, affections and so forth. Some people think it means that a person is like a rabid dog, foaming at the mouth. Being as bad as they can be.

[trivia]
By the way I learned why dogs foam at the mouth when they get rabies. It paralyzes the swallowing muscles of the throat so you can't swallow. People can just spit out the saliva as it builds up, but dogs don't do that, so it just builds up into foam.

That also why they called it Hydrophobia. A person can't swallow, so when somebody gives them a glass of water, at first they will try to drink it but choke cause they can't swallow. After that they will fight the person trying to make them drink and the doctor thinks they just have a fear of water.

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes, the "total" simply means that the sinfulness has effected the total man. His heart, conscience, desires, affections and so forth. Some people think it means that a person is like a rabid dog, foaming at the mouth. Being as bad as they can be.

[trivia]
By the way I learned why dogs foam at the mouth when they get rabies. It paralyzes the swallowing muscles of the throat so you can't swallow. People can just spit out the saliva as it builds up, but dogs don't do that, so it just builds up into foam.

That also why they called it Hydrophobia. A person can't swallow, so when somebody gives them a glass of water, at first they will try to drink it but choke cause they can't swallow. After that they will fight the person trying to make them drink and the doctor thinks they just have a fear of water.

Yes, the "total" simply means that the sinfulness has effected the total man. His heart, conscience, desires, affections and so forth.

Many do not see it that way and that it is not Scriptual.

I do not believe we can totally understand how deceptive sin is in our being.

Even David prayed.....

Psalms 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.

People do not realize the depth of sin.

 

[Whatever]

Many do not see it that way and that it is not Scriptual.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Here is what Vines complete expository Dictioary of NT words says about heart (kardia)
The chief organ of physical life ("for the life of the flesh is in the blood," Lev_17:11), occupies the most important place in the human system. By an easy transition the word came to stand for man's entire mental and moral activity, both the rational and the emotional elements. In other words, the heart is used figuratively for the hidden springs of the personal life. "The Bible describes human depravity as in the 'heart,' because sin is a principle which has its seat in the center of man's inward life, and then 'defiles' the whole circuit of his action.

As to its usage in the NT it denotes (a) the seat of physical life, Act_14:17; Jas_5:5; (b) the
seat of moral nature and spiritual life, the seat of grief, Joh_14:1; Rom_9:2; 2Co_2:4; joy, Joh_16:22; Eph_5:19; the desires, Mat_5:28; 2Pe_2:14; the affections, Luk_24:32; Act_21:13; the perceptions, Joh_12:40; Eph_4:18; the thoughts, Mat_9:4; Heb_4:12; the understanding, Mat_13:15; Rom_1:21; the reasoning powers, Mar_2:6; Luk_24:38; the imagination, Luk_1:51; conscience, Act_2:37; 1Jn_3:20; the intentions, Heb_4:12, cf. 1Pe_4:1; purpose, Act_11:23; 2Co_9:7; the will, Rom_6:17; Col_3:15; faith, Mar_11:23; Rom_10:10; Heb_3:12.
[end of Vines]

Calvinists do not mean to say that each one of those things are totally corrupt. They are just not bent towards God and thus at enmity against Him, can not understand the things of the Spirit and will not accept them.

That is why "you must be born again."

 

[electedbyHim]

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Here is what Vines complete expository Dictioary of NT words says about heart (kardia)
The chief organ of physical life ("for the life of the flesh is in the blood," Lev_17:11), occupies the most important place in the human system. By an easy transition the word came to stand for man's entire mental and moral activity, both the rational and the emotional elements. In other words, the heart is used figuratively for the hidden springs of the personal life. "The Bible describes human depravity as in the 'heart,' because sin is a principle which has its seat in the center of man's inward life, and then 'defiles' the whole circuit of his action.

As to its usage in the NT it denotes (a) the seat of physical life, Act_14:17; Jas_5:5; (b) the
seat of moral nature and spiritual life, the seat of grief, Joh_14:1; Rom_9:2; 2Co_2:4; joy, Joh_16:22; Eph_5:19; the desires, Mat_5:28; 2Pe_2:14; the affections, Luk_24:32; Act_21:13; the perceptions, Joh_12:40; Eph_4:18; the thoughts, Mat_9:4; Heb_4:12; the understanding, Mat_13:15; Rom_1:21; the reasoning powers, Mar_2:6; Luk_24:38; the imagination, Luk_1:51; conscience, Act_2:37; 1Jn_3:20; the intentions, Heb_4:12, cf. 1Pe_4:1; purpose, Act_11:23; 2Co_9:7; the will, Rom_6:17; Col_3:15; faith, Mar_11:23; Rom_10:10; Heb_3:12.
[end of Vines]

Calvinists do not mean to say that each one of those things are totally corrupt. They are just not bent towards God and thus at enmity against Him, can not understand the things of the Spirit and will not accept them.

That is why "you must be born again."

Agreed.

 

[electedbyHim]

Because “spiritually dead” is not taught in scripture. Man is dead because he is under a death sentence. He is under the sentence of death which states “dust you are and to dust you shall return”.

“Spiritually dead” is a man made doctrine.

6139
deadness, spiritual

Being morally and spiritually without life, therefore without a relationship with God. This condition, being the result of original sin, brings wrath and judgment and can be changed only by the sovereign, intervening grace of God.

Spiritual deadness is humanity’s condition by nature

It is linked to physical death Ge 2:17 See also Ge 3:3,19; Pr 11:19; Eze 18:20-31; Jn 8:21-24; Ro 1:32; 6:23

It is the universal consequence of sin Eph 2:1 See also Ge 8:21; 1Ch 10:13; Ps 51:5; 58:3; Pr 21:16; Jn 6:53; Ro 3:23; 5:12-13,17; Col 2:13

It is confirmed in the law Ro 5:20 See also Ro 7:4-12; 8:2-4; Gal 2:19

It is evidenced in the human mind Ro 8:6; 2Co 4:4; Col 1:21; Tit 1:15

It is evidenced in the human body Ro 7:24 See also Ro 6:12-14,16; 8:10; 1Co 15:50; 2Co 5:10; Gal 6:7-8; Eph 4:22; 1Ti 5:6; Jas 3:6

Spiritual darkness brings judgment

God’s judgment is final Lk 16:26 See also Isa 66:24; Mt 8:12; 25:30-32; Mk 9:43-49; Lk 13:28; Heb 9:27; 1Pe 1:17

The second death Rev 20:14-15 See also Mt 25:41; 1Jn 5:16-17; Jude 12; Rev 2:11; 21:8

Rescue from spiritual deadness is initiated by God

He brings salvation Eph 2:4-5 See also Ps 103:12; Isa 26:19; Eze 37:1-14

He brings union with the death of Jesus Christ Ro 6:4 See also Ro 6:5-10; 2Co 4:10; 5:15-17; Gal 2:19-20; 5:24; 6:14; Php 3:10; Col 2:12

He brings union with the resurrection of Jesus Christ Col 3:1 See also Ro 5:21; 6:11; Rev 20:4-5

He brings ultimate physical resurrection Ro 8:10-11 See also 1Co 15:42-49^[1]

9024

death, spiritual

A condition in this life of alienation from God because of sin. It leads ultimately to the “second death”, the permanent separation of unbelievers from God.

Spiritual death means alienation from God in this life
Eph 2:1-3; Col 1:21 See also Mt 8:22; Ro 6:23; Col 2:13

Spiritual death is a result of Adam’s sin
Ro 5:15-16 See also Ro 5:12

Symptoms of spiritual death

Spiritual ignorance Mt 4:16; Isa 9:2; Lk 1:79; Eph 5:8

A mind controlled by the sinful nature Ro 8:5-8 See also Pr 8:36; 14:12; 16:25; 21:16; Eph 4:18

Unbelief Jn 3:36; 1Jn 5:12

Living in sinful pleasures Lk 15:13; 1Ti 5:6

Acting in ways that lead to death Heb 6:1; 9:14

Spiritual death leads ultimately to the “second death”
Rev 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8

A church may be spiritually dead
Rev 3:1

Deliverance from spiritual death is only through Jesus Christ
Eph 2:4-5 See also Eze 37:1-14; Lk 15:24,32; Jn 5:24-25; Ro 6:3-4,13

Martin H. Manser, Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies (London: Martin Manser, 2009).

 

[LeviR]

6139
deadness, spiritual

Being morally and spiritually without life, therefore without a relationship with God. This condition, being the result of original sin, brings wrath and judgment and can be changed only by the sovereign, intervening grace of God.

Spiritual deadness is humanity’s condition by nature

It is linked to physical death Ge 2:17 See also Ge 3:3,19; Pr 11:19; Eze 18:20-31; Jn 8:21-24; Ro 1:32; 6:23

It is the universal consequence of sin Eph 2:1 See also Ge 8:21; 1Ch 10:13; Ps 51:5; 58:3; Pr 21:16; Jn 6:53; Ro 3:23; 5:12-13,17; Col 2:13

It is confirmed in the law Ro 5:20 See also Ro 7:4-12; 8:2-4; Gal 2:19

It is evidenced in the human mind Ro 8:6; 2Co 4:4; Col 1:21; Tit 1:15

It is evidenced in the human body Ro 7:24 See also Ro 6:12-14,16; 8:10; 1Co 15:50; 2Co 5:10; Gal 6:7-8; Eph 4:22; 1Ti 5:6; Jas 3:6

Spiritual darkness brings judgment

God’s judgment is final Lk 16:26 See also Isa 66:24; Mt 8:12; 25:30-32; Mk 9:43-49; Lk 13:28; Heb 9:27; 1Pe 1:17

The second death Rev 20:14-15 See also Mt 25:41; 1Jn 5:16-17; Jude 12; Rev 2:11; 21:8

Rescue from spiritual deadness is initiated by God

He brings salvation Eph 2:4-5 See also Ps 103:12; Isa 26:19; Eze 37:1-14

He brings union with the death of Jesus Christ Ro 6:4 See also Ro 6:5-10; 2Co 4:10; 5:15-17; Gal 2:19-20; 5:24; 6:14; Php 3:10; Col 2:12

He brings union with the resurrection of Jesus Christ Col 3:1 See also Ro 5:21; 6:11; Rev 20:4-5

He brings ultimate physical resurrection Ro 8:10-11 See also 1Co 15:42-49^[1]

9024

death, spiritual

A condition in this life of alienation from God because of sin. It leads ultimately to the “second death”, the permanent separation of unbelievers from God.

Spiritual death means alienation from God in this life
Eph 2:1-3; Col 1:21 See also Mt 8:22; Ro 6:23; Col 2:13

Spiritual death is a result of Adam’s sin
Ro 5:15-16 See also Ro 5:12

Symptoms of spiritual death

Spiritual ignorance Mt 4:16; Isa 9:2; Lk 1:79; Eph 5:8

A mind controlled by the sinful nature Ro 8:5-8 See also Pr 8:36; 14:12; 16:25; 21:16; Eph 4:18

Unbelief Jn 3:36; 1Jn 5:12

Living in sinful pleasures Lk 15:13; 1Ti 5:6

Acting in ways that lead to death Heb 6:1; 9:14

Spiritual death leads ultimately to the “second death”
Rev 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8

A church may be spiritually dead
Rev 3:1

Deliverance from spiritual death is only through Jesus Christ
Eph 2:4-5 See also Eze 37:1-14; Lk 15:24,32; Jn 5:24-25; Ro 6:3-4,13

Martin H. Manser, Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies (London: Martin Manser, 2009).

Like I said, “spiritual death” is a man made doctrine. It has no place in scripture.
That’s probably why no one in scripture speaks of it.

 

[electedbyHim]

Like I said, “spiritual death” is a man made doctrine. It has no place in scripture.
That’s probably why no one in scripture speaks of it.

So you ignore Scriptual truth.

Got it.

 

[LeviR]

So you ignore Scriptual truth.

Got it.

I don’t ignore the scripture of truth. I simply know them well enough to recognize when someone speaks NOT according to them.
To say man is “spiritually dead” is to speak NOT as scripture does.
No one in scripture has EVER said ANYONE is “spiritually dead”.
It’s a man-made doctrine.

Man is said to be dead because he is dust. He was made from it and returns to it.

Gen 18:27
Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord:

 

[JLB]

So if man is not depraved, what is he?

He is justified or he is not.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The good news is…God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

God wants the unsaved people of the world to be saved through Jesus Christ.

 

[LeviR]

So you ignore Scriptual truth.

Got it.

The best dictionary of the Bible are the Scriptures. Not the dictionary of Joe Blow.

 

[LeviR]

He is justified or he is not.

Right!
The just shall live by faith.

Which means the just shall have life eternal.

The unjust are dead because they shall die eternally.

 

[LeviR]

The just are rewarded with eternal life.
The others have their reward. They shall die and stay dead.

Eat, drink and be merry……your days are numbered.

 

[LeviR]

He is justified or he is not.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The good news is…God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

God wants the unsaved people of the world to be saved through Jesus Christ.

They made up a doctrine they call “spiritually dead” when man is actually dead, dead.

 

[LeviR]

So you ignore Scriptual truth.

Got it.

You just don’t get it, do you?
You’d rather believe the made up stuff man invents and tries to put into the scripture?
“spiritual death” is NOT found in scripture. It is therefore a man-made doctrine. Get it?
God’s own words are not good enough for you?

Man has NOT been condemned to “spiritual death”. He has been condemned to die. Like die, dead. Like return to where he came from, dead.
That kind of dead.
“From dust YOU are, and to dust YOU shall return”
That kind of DEAD!

That’s what the scripture speaks of. It doesn’t speak like you do. No one is EVER said to be “spiritually dead” !!!
Not in scripture anyway. NEVER!

Man is dead because his nature has been condemned.

This is why the resurrection of life is vital. If there is no resurrection of a spiritual physical body, faith is worthless.
No resurrection of a body that never dies, man stays dead.
Just as he is now.
Without faith is without hope of life eternal by resurrection from the dead.
Without faith, he is dead, will die, and stay dead.

Without faith, he is alive, will be saved, and stay alive forever.
Thanks to a resurrection from the dead ones.

 

[electedbyHim]

He is justified or he is not.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The good news is…God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

God wants the unsaved people of the world to be saved through Jesus Christ.

He is justified or he is not.

What is the not?

Your reply has nothing to do with my post.

If you want to prove total depravity is not Biblical you need to explain why.

I dont think you even know the definition of total depravity or even care, in your mind if those 2 words are not in the Bible, they are not true.

That is really bad theology.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

The best dictionary of the Bible are the Scriptures. Not the dictionary of Joe Blow.

You do not understand the depth of sin in humans.

A good Biblical study on Hamartiology and Anthropology will set things straight.

 

[Whatever]

That’s probably why no one in scripture speaks of it.

No one in Scripture speaks of people getting colds or the flu. But it exists and we still get it.

 

[JLB]

They made up a doctrine they call “spiritually dead” when man is actually dead, dead.

Can you explain what you mean from the scriptures?

 

[JLB]

What is the not?

Your reply has nothing to do with my post.

If you want to prove total depravity is not Biblical you need to explain why.

I dont think you even know the definition of total depravity or even care, in your mind if those 2 words are not in the Bible, they are not true.

That is really bad theology.

Grace and peace to you.

Please post the scripture that uses the term totally depraved?

Using unbiblical man made words and building a theology around it sounds like what the Holy Spirit warned us of in the last days.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

 

[LeviR]

Can you explain what you mean from the scriptures?

Sure I can. And I don’t have to add my own words to scripture either, like they do when they say man is “spiritually dead”.
They add a man-made idea into scripture.

Adam was told if he ate the fruit he would die. “On the day thou eat of it, thou shall surely die”
On the day Adam ate the fruit, God pronounced His judgment on Adam. “From dust YOU are, and to dust YOU shall return.”
Adam received the death sentence for his sin.
The wages of sin is death.

Sin entered the world by one man, and death by sin, so death has passed to all in whom all sinned.

The death sentence Adam received has passed to all of mankind because all of mankind were in Adam when he sinned.
IOW, the sin nature of man has been condemned to die. And that nature is called “flesh”.
The natural man made from dust has been condemned to die and return to dust.

Man was NEVER punished with their made-up theory of “spiritual death”.

Man is saved from the death sentence by faith. He is made alive in Christ. And when Christ returns, the faithful one will be raised from the dead with the “divine nature”.

It’s an immortal spiritual physical body as opposed to the mortal natural flesh body he now has.