TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[LeviR]

No one in Scripture speaks of people getting colds or the flu. But it exists and we still get it.

By adding the word “spiritual” where it doesn’t exist, changes the entire meaning of what is actually being said. And this creates a new doctrine, foreign to scripture.
And so Calvinism is born.

“Let the dead bury their dead”.

They add their own idea by saying “let the “spiritual dead” bury their own dead”

See that?
They changed the meaning of Jesus’ words!!!!

They create a doctrine neither Jesus nor anyone else in scripture speaks of.
To their own destruction..

 

[deepfaithpraise]

A concise study on the state of man

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of Total Depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (a woman’s menstrual cloth) before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or as Jesus says “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).



1. The fall has resulted in spiritual death to all men.

Gen.2:16 - Gen.2:17 (NKJ)

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Romans.5:12 - Romans.5:12 (NKJ)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Eph.2:1 - Eph.2:3 (NKJ)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Col.2:13 - Col.2:13 (NKJ)

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,



2. Fallen man is now blind and deaf to spiritual truth.

Gen.6:5 - Gen.6:5 (NKJ)

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen.8:21 - Gen.8:21 (NKJ)

21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Ecc.9:3 - Ecc.9:3 (NKJ)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer.17:9 - Jer.17:9 (NKJ)

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Mark.7:21 - Mark.7:23 (NKJ)

21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."



3. Fallen man is now under the control of Satan and in bondage to sin.

John.8:44 - John.8:44 (NKJ)

44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Eph.2:1 - Eph.2:2 (NKJ)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

2Tim.2:25 - 2Tim.2:26 (NKJ)

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

1John.3:10 - 1John.3:10 (NKJ)

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

1John.5:19 - 1John.5:19 (NKJ)

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Rom.6:20 - Rom.6:20 (NKJ)

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Titus.3:3 - Titus.3:3 (NKJ)

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example we see that:
1—no one is without sin,
2—no one seeks after God,
3—there is no one who is good,
4—their speech is corrupted by sin,
5—their actions are corrupted by sin,
6—and above all they have no fear of God. So when one considers even these few verses mentioned above it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “There is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

Rom.8:7 - Rom.8:8 (NKJ)

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Cor.2:14 - 1Cor.2:14 (NKJ)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I find this Protestant view of Total Depravity interesting, though I respectfully disagree with its severity. Although the Fall wounded human nature, Catholic theology maintains that we weren't completely corrupted. We still retain free will and the capacity for good, even if damaged.

The psychological implications here are interesting - this doctrine essentially describes what we'd now call complete moral incapacity. But my clinical experience shows that even deeply troubled individuals usually retain some capacity for positive choices and empathy.

Historically, this view emerged strongly during the Reformation, particularly with Calvin. But the earlier Church Fathers, like Augustine (while acknowledging human sinfulness), generally held a more nuanced position about human nature retaining some good after the Fall.

That said, the Biblical passages cited do highlight humanity's serious moral struggles. I just interpret them as describing our wounded state rather than total corruption. We're injured, not annihilated - like a broken leg versus complete paralysis.

Just my perspective as someone who studies both human history and human nature. These theological debates still influence how different Christian traditions approach human potential and moral responsibility.

 

[LeviR]

I find this Protestant view of Total Depravity interesting, though I respectfully disagree with its severity. Although the Fall wounded human nature, Catholic theology maintains that we weren't completely corrupted. We still retain free will and the capacity for good, even if damaged.

The psychological implications here are interesting - this doctrine essentially describes what we'd now call complete moral incapacity. But my clinical experience shows that even deeply troubled individuals usually retain some capacity for positive choices and empathy.

Historically, this view emerged strongly during the Reformation, particularly with Calvin. But the earlier Church Fathers, like Augustine (while acknowledging human sinfulness), generally held a more nuanced position about human nature retaining some good after the Fall.

That said, the Biblical passages cited do highlight humanity's serious moral struggles. I just interpret them as describing our wounded state rather than total corruption. We're injured, not annihilated - like a broken leg versus complete paralysis.

Just my perspective as someone who studies both human history and human nature. These theological debates still influence how different Christian traditions approach human potential and moral responsibility.

The idea of “a fall” is a myth.

The “fall” myth says that man’s nature changed after Adam sinned. They claim that after Adam sinned, his nature became sinful.
They ignore the fact that Adam sinned of his own created nature.
There was NO change to the nature of man.
Adam sinned because the law ( do not eat) is made weak by the flesh he was created with.
When the law said, “Don’t eat”, the desire of his own created flesh was stronger than his desire to obey God’s word.
Eat, or believe God, was his choice. Adam surrendered to his created nature(flesh).
And that’s why all of mankind die. They all share the same created nature with Adam.

God did not judge a “fallen nature” but the flesh nature which has the capacity to serve itself rather than God. The very nature Adam was created with.

 

[Whatever]

But my clinical experience shows that even deeply troubled individuals usually retain some capacity for positive choices and empathy.

Calvinists agree with that. Some totally depraved people can be the nicest people you can meet.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

They can be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent but still unable to accept the truths of Scripture. Their mind is enmity against God and cannot please God. Helping an old lady cross the street does not please God because it is not done for the glory of God.

Proverbs 21:4 A haughty look, a proud heart, And the plowing of the wicked are sin.

 

[Whatever]

Please post the scripture that uses the term totally depraved?

Does it always have to be the exact word? Nothing synonymous with it?

Dictionary.com - Depraved - Synonyms: reprobate, sinful, evil

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

NIV
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

There isn't enough room for all the passages that use sinful or evil.

I know, I know, it doesn't use the word "total."

 

[LeviR]

Does it always have to be the exact word? Nothing synonymous with it?

Dictionary.com - Depraved - Synonyms: reprobate, sinful, evil

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

NIV
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

There isn't enough room for all the passages that use sinful or evil.

I know, I know, it doesn't use the word "total."

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Yeah, just like Adam and Eve who didn't retain the warning God gave them about eating the fruit.
They surrendered to the fleshly mind and sinful flesh desire to eat anyway. Ignoring the warning.
God never stopped them. He let them do it.

Adam was created the natural man of flesh. He didn’t become the natural man after he sinned. That’s a myth.
Just like “spirituality dead” is a myth.
These are man-made ideas they try to incorporate into the scripture.

It only works on those who don’t know the scripture.

 

[electedbyHim]

I find this Protestant view of Total Depravity interesting, though I respectfully disagree with its severity. Although the Fall wounded human nature, Catholic theology maintains that we weren't completely corrupted. We still retain free will and the capacity for good, even if damaged.

The psychological implications here are interesting - this doctrine essentially describes what we'd now call complete moral incapacity. But my clinical experience shows that even deeply troubled individuals usually retain some capacity for positive choices and empathy.

Historically, this view emerged strongly during the Reformation, particularly with Calvin. But the earlier Church Fathers, like Augustine (while acknowledging human sinfulness), generally held a more nuanced position about human nature retaining some good after the Fall.

That said, the Biblical passages cited do highlight humanity's serious moral struggles. I just interpret them as describing our wounded state rather than total corruption. We're injured, not annihilated - like a broken leg versus complete paralysis.

Just my perspective as someone who studies both human history and human nature. These theological debates still influence how different Christian traditions approach human potential and moral responsibility.

Total depravity means all aspects of humans are tainted by sin.

Nobody is sayoing humans do not do anything good for others and for causes.

Before regeneration, everything done good by the unregenerate man, was motivated by selfish pride.

When the regenerate does good things, he is motivated to do it for God's glory. That is not to say that the flesh cannot sneak in there for a little selfish pride.

 

[JLB]

Man is saved from the death sentence by faith. He is made alive in Christ. And when Christ returns, the faithful one will be raised from the dead with the “divine nature”.

It’s an immortal spiritual physical body as opposed to the mortal natural flesh body he now has.

I agree.

 

[JLB]

Adam was told if he ate the fruit he would die. “On the day thou eat of it, thou shall surely die”
On the day Adam ate the fruit, God pronounced His judgment on Adam. “From dust YOU are, and to dust YOU shall return.”
Adam received the death sentence for his sin.
The wages of sin is death.

Do you believe when we are born again, our spirit is reborn or our flesh?

 

[JLB]

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Can you see the reason God gave those ones over to a reprobate mind?


Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Romans 1:24-28


The context is men and women living perverted lifestyles so God gave them over to a debased or reprobate mind.

• And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind.

JLB

 

[hawkman]

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