Trampled - A calling or abuse

[Watchman 2]

most definitely interested

I'll PM you.

 

[WIP]

nope not at all - if you investigate how they translated you will find that THEY departed from lexical translation and put their OWN ideology in the text - the fact is proven by translators who translate it properly - so for every mis-translation you will find at least one translator who cares more about the integrity of God's word than interjecting his own theology into his translating work

Now it sounds like you're suggesting conspiracies? I find that hard to believe considering how many were involved and from different denominations and backgrounds. Here are the first three I looked up with links to my references. Surely someone would have called such blatant mistranslations into question.

The NKJV
The NKJV was translated by a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity. Thomas Nelson Publishers sought to preserve the accuracy and poetry of the King James Version, but in a language that the everyday person could understand.

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/nkjv/about/

The NIV
In 1965, a cross-denominational gathering of evangelical scholars met near Chicago and agreed to start work on the New International Version. Instead of just updating an existing translation like the KJV, they chose to start from scratch, using the very best manuscripts available in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic of the Bible.

One year later, their decision was endorsed by a gathering of 80 evangelical ministry leaders and scholars. And so the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT), the self-governing body responsible for the NIV, was born.

To ensure maximum accuracy and readability, the NIV went through perhaps the most rigorous translation process in history. First, each book of the Bible was assigned to a translation team consisting of:
• Two lead translators
• Two translation consultants
• One English style consultant (if necessary)

Then another team of five Bible scholars reviewed their work, carefully comparing it to the original biblical text and assessing its readability. From there, each book went to a general committee of 8 to 12 scholars. As part of the final review, outside critics gave feedback. Samples were tested with pastors, students, and laypeople. Perhaps no other Bible translation has gone through a more thorough process to ensure accuracy and readability.

https://www.thenivbible.com/about-the-niv/history-of-the-niv/

The ESV
“The ESV publishing team includes more than a hundred people. The fourteen-member Translation Oversight Committee has benefited from the work of fifty biblical experts serving as Translation Review Scholars and from the comments of the more than fifty members of the Advisory Council, all of which has been carried out under the auspices of the Good News Publishers Board of Directors. This hundred-member team, which shares a common commitment to the truth of God's Word and to historic Christian orthodoxy, is international in scope and includes leaders in many denominations.”
(ESV Preface.)

http://www.bible-researcher.com/esv-translators.html

I guess if the translations are so poor, I'd be just as well to throw all of mine into the next fire pit I light. I certainly will not be learning ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and any other appropriate languages any time soon.

 

[Watchman 2]

Now it sounds like you're suggesting conspiracies? I find that hard to believe considering how many were involved and from different denominations and backgrounds. Here are the first three I looked up with links to my references. Surely someone would have called such blatant mistranslations into question.

The NKJV
The NKJV was translated by a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity. Thomas Nelson Publishers sought to preserve the accuracy and poetry of the King James Version, but in a language that the everyday person could understand.

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/nkjv/about/

The NIV
In 1965, a cross-denominational gathering of evangelical scholars met near Chicago and agreed to start work on the New International Version. Instead of just updating an existing translation like the KJV, they chose to start from scratch, using the very best manuscripts available in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic of the Bible.

One year later, their decision was endorsed by a gathering of 80 evangelical ministry leaders and scholars. And so the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT), the self-governing body responsible for the NIV, was born.

To ensure maximum accuracy and readability, the NIV went through perhaps the most rigorous translation process in history. First, each book of the Bible was assigned to a translation team consisting of:
• Two lead translators
• Two translation consultants
• One English style consultant (if necessary)

Then another team of five Bible scholars reviewed their work, carefully comparing it to the original biblical text and assessing its readability. From there, each book went to a general committee of 8 to 12 scholars. As part of the final review, outside critics gave feedback. Samples were tested with pastors, students, and laypeople. Perhaps no other Bible translation has gone through a more thorough process to ensure accuracy and readability.

https://www.thenivbible.com/about-the-niv/history-of-the-niv/

The ESV
“The ESV publishing team includes more than a hundred people. The fourteen-member Translation Oversight Committee has benefited from the work of fifty biblical experts serving as Translation Review Scholars and from the comments of the more than fifty members of the Advisory Council, all of which has been carried out under the auspices of the Good News Publishers Board of Directors. This hundred-member team, which shares a common commitment to the truth of God's Word and to historic Christian orthodoxy, is international in scope and includes leaders in many denominations.”
(ESV Preface.)

http://www.bible-researcher.com/esv-translators.html

I guess if the translations are so poor, I'd be just as well to throw all of mine into the next fire pit I light. I certainly will not be learning ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and any other appropriate languages any time soon.

Maybe then God can bring a gifted teacher onto your path? Ephesians.4:11-12

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe then God can bring a gifted teacher onto your path? Ephesians.4:11-12

We have a gifted teacher, the Holy Spirit. In a sense you could say the Lord is boring. In the world's eyes.

A simple phrase could be a simplification or an eternal truth that defines everything. We dismiss so much thinking we are safe and protected, not seeing how vulnerable and empty we actually are.

Moses spoke with God. So He was privileged, yet his life was at risk all the time. His emotions ran away with him once, and he did not enter the promised land.

Our hearts are bound with our family and friends, yet we talk like we are impregnable. Shake this and our house shakes.

A rich man feels secure until it is removed, in an instant. Look at the markets, our society. One small illness has brought us low, very quickly.

 

[Randy]

Not sure what you mean by pushed with force. Could you elaborate on this for me?

The power of the Spirit. Jesus was greatly opposed. Did He seem weak or did He push forward through all of it until His departure?

His reply to Herrod wants to kill you.

He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'

He was advancing the Kingdom of God into the world with the power of God. All the power of the enemy couldn't stop Him. He was not week. He rebuked wickedness as well.

He was humble of heart but to the devious He showed Himself shrewd.
As is written in the Psalms about God.
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

 

[JLB]

another term mistranslated is DOUBT - the greek word used by Jesus and by james means do not dissect/judge/pull apart - iow believe God and take Him at face value without pulling His words apart - take them in and chew them - don't put them on the table and dissect/judge/analyse/etc - that leads to leaning on our own understanding rather than leaning on the goodness and awesomeness of God - enter into all God said/did/offers like a child who enjoys the good things of God - iow enjoy God fully and whole-heartedly

I have seen many people doubt this word from God, as they seem to pull it apart, to make it say something else.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Many such verses like this, which require us to submit to Him in obedience as our Lord, are discarded and overlooked by the Church today, in favor of the passages that we tend to like.




JLB

 

[JLB]

nope not at all - if you investigate how they translated you will find that THEY departed from lexical translation and put their OWN ideology in the text - the fact is proven by translators who translate it properly - so for every mis-translation you will find at least one translator who cares more about the integrity of God's word than interjecting his own theology into his translating work

for instance - God said HE made man a little lower than Elohim - Himself

translators know very well that Elohim is NOWHERE else used for angel - YET the translators decided that making man a little lower than Elohim makes no sense so God MUST have meant angels

this is what i am talking about

it's a straight out mis-translation for their own private reasons - not good solid lexical reasons

this is why we should all learn biblical languages if we can - the bible is VERY straight forward - God made it that way - EMET - TRUTH

man turned truth into theology - twists and turns of logic and analysis

we need to watch out for that - personal interpretations are warned against in scripture

Could you post the scripture you are referring to?

 

[JLB]

Maybe then God can bring a gifted teacher onto your path? Ephesians.4:11-12

Define gifted

 

[JLB]

Maybe then God can bring a gifted teacher onto your path? Ephesians.4:11-12

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29



JLN

 

[JLB]

Maybe then God can bring a gifted teacher onto your path? Ephesians.4:11-12

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, Ephesians 4:11-12


No gifted teachers listed here.


These Apostles and Prophets, Pastors and Teachers, as well as Evangelists are the gifts to the body of Christ.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The power of the Spirit. Jesus was greatly opposed. Did He seem weak or did He push forward through all of it until His departure?

His reply to Herrod wants to kill you.

He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'

He was advancing the Kingdom of God into the world with the power of God. All the power of the enemy couldn't stop Him. He was not week. He rebuked wickedness as well.

He was humble of heart but to the devious He showed Himself shrewd.
As is written in the Psalms about God.
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

Thank you

 

[Truthfrees]

Now it sounds like you're suggesting conspiracies? I find that hard to believe considering how many were involved and from different denominations and backgrounds. Here are the first three I looked up with links to my references. Surely someone would have called such blatant mistranslations into question.

The NKJV
The NKJV was translated by a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity. Thomas Nelson Publishers sought to preserve the accuracy and poetry of the King James Version, but in a language that the everyday person could understand.

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/nkjv/about/

The NIV
In 1965, a cross-denominational gathering of evangelical scholars met near Chicago and agreed to start work on the New International Version. Instead of just updating an existing translation like the KJV, they chose to start from scratch, using the very best manuscripts available in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic of the Bible.

One year later, their decision was endorsed by a gathering of 80 evangelical ministry leaders and scholars. And so the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT), the self-governing body responsible for the NIV, was born.

To ensure maximum accuracy and readability, the NIV went through perhaps the most rigorous translation process in history. First, each book of the Bible was assigned to a translation team consisting of:
• Two lead translators
• Two translation consultants
• One English style consultant (if necessary)

Then another team of five Bible scholars reviewed their work, carefully comparing it to the original biblical text and assessing its readability. From there, each book went to a general committee of 8 to 12 scholars. As part of the final review, outside critics gave feedback. Samples were tested with pastors, students, and laypeople. Perhaps no other Bible translation has gone through a more thorough process to ensure accuracy and readability.

https://www.thenivbible.com/about-the-niv/history-of-the-niv/

The ESV
“The ESV publishing team includes more than a hundred people. The fourteen-member Translation Oversight Committee has benefited from the work of fifty biblical experts serving as Translation Review Scholars and from the comments of the more than fifty members of the Advisory Council, all of which has been carried out under the auspices of the Good News Publishers Board of Directors. This hundred-member team, which shares a common commitment to the truth of God's Word and to historic Christian orthodoxy, is international in scope and includes leaders in many denominations.”
(ESV Preface.)

http://www.bible-researcher.com/esv-translators.html

I guess if the translations are so poor, I'd be just as well to throw all of mine into the next fire pit I light. I certainly will not be learning ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and any other appropriate languages any time soon.

conspiracy theory no

if you don't think it happens that's ok

i know it happens and it causes me to dig deeper

the fact that people (even teams) are involved in translating means there will be errors

 

[WIP]

conspiracy theory no

if you don't think it happens that's ok

i know it happens and it causes me to dig deeper

the fact that people (even teams) are involved in translating means there will be errors

That would include your own translating, would it not? For me, I will trust 100's of educated people over my own any day.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul said the apostles where abused but gave a blessing, thrown out, but respected others and tried the best for them.

We are called to follow Pauls example.
Jesus was led like a lamb to the slaughter yet did not raise a complaint.

We are called to be meek, to not dominate like the world or fight for our rights etc.

This is not passive acceptance of another, this is living as Jesus lived but not opposing evil, just accepting it and forgiving.
Pride is a dangerous thing when we want others to think of ourselves in a particular way, like speaking the truth.
I caught myself responding to the phrase, "you do not know".

Whether I know or not does not matter, what matters is the truth. If the other party does not know, they can neither judge or otherwise another for their knowledge. Put simply these statements are just pointers to discovery for oneself of the truth, if it matters. If the "you do not know" is just a put down, then in Christ it is best accepted. A reasonable response could be the truth is what matters, and my grasp of it is always limited, so I suggest one investigates further if it matters.

Jesus called us to turn the other cheek.
This rises above dominance, to say we choose to place ourselves as a sacrifice.
Love always asks, why do you need to do this, it serves no purpose?

This is not easy, and we are always caught out. How do I value myself, and what matters to me?

First, I'd like to give the meaning of MEEK.

In Matthew 5, Jesus means the meek to be those that were taken into captivity ...
Isaiah 61:1-3
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.
(Assyrian Exile, 722 BC)

The Messiah was going to be annointed to bring good news to the poor...Jesus read this passage from the O.T. and was then banished from His hometown.
Luke 4:14

Jesus meant the exiled, but also anyone, who are oppressed, powerless, desperate and without hope.

These persons are physically and spiritually poor.

People in Jesus' time were in this same condition:

The poor in spirit are humble before God
They realize they have nothing to contribute to the Kingdom of God
They have repented and have no arrogance
They are not self-righteous
To enter the Kingdom of God one must be poor in spirit and realize his need for God
One who humbles himself is able to accept the frail nature of himself and others
Thus, one can accept the free gift of faith/salvation and can allow grace to lead to sanctification

source: my own notes


Other than this, I'd like to say that I find a difference between being meek and allowing oneself to be trampled upon.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now it sounds like you're suggesting conspiracies? I find that hard to believe considering how many were involved and from different denominations and backgrounds. Here are the first three I looked up with links to my references. Surely someone would have called such blatant mistranslations into question.

The NKJV
The NKJV was translated by a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity. Thomas Nelson Publishers sought to preserve the accuracy and poetry of the King James Version, but in a language that the everyday person could understand.

https://www.thomasnelsonbibles.com/nkjv/about/

The NIV
In 1965, a cross-denominational gathering of evangelical scholars met near Chicago and agreed to start work on the New International Version. Instead of just updating an existing translation like the KJV, they chose to start from scratch, using the very best manuscripts available in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic of the Bible.

One year later, their decision was endorsed by a gathering of 80 evangelical ministry leaders and scholars. And so the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT), the self-governing body responsible for the NIV, was born.

To ensure maximum accuracy and readability, the NIV went through perhaps the most rigorous translation process in history. First, each book of the Bible was assigned to a translation team consisting of:
• Two lead translators
• Two translation consultants
• One English style consultant (if necessary)

Then another team of five Bible scholars reviewed their work, carefully comparing it to the original biblical text and assessing its readability. From there, each book went to a general committee of 8 to 12 scholars. As part of the final review, outside critics gave feedback. Samples were tested with pastors, students, and laypeople. Perhaps no other Bible translation has gone through a more thorough process to ensure accuracy and readability.

https://www.thenivbible.com/about-the-niv/history-of-the-niv/

The ESV
“The ESV publishing team includes more than a hundred people. The fourteen-member Translation Oversight Committee has benefited from the work of fifty biblical experts serving as Translation Review Scholars and from the comments of the more than fifty members of the Advisory Council, all of which has been carried out under the auspices of the Good News Publishers Board of Directors. This hundred-member team, which shares a common commitment to the truth of God's Word and to historic Christian orthodoxy, is international in scope and includes leaders in many denominations.”
(ESV Preface.)

http://www.bible-researcher.com/esv-translators.html

I guess if the translations are so poor, I'd be just as well to throw all of mine into the next fire pit I light. I certainly will not be learning ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and any other appropriate languages any time soon.

Every translation has its own slant.
Just like we discuss here different ways we understand verses....so too theologians do the same.

For example, the NIV teaches OSAS.
Ditto for commentaries....

 

[PeterJens]

On a forum I read today a brother defining who is written in the lambs book of life.

This is strange, because of presumption. It is not for us to say, it is the Lord's. It may seem subtle, but the Lord says elsewhere much which is enough. If we do not know our place and respect the Lord's heart, have we come to know Him at all.

Meekness knows boundaries, takes the lower place, accepts what is and hopes for what might be.

I can shout the truth and on shouting it deny its meaning.

Jesus accepts us where we are with the expectation of change.

I have found it strange when a group believe it is there mission to expose others as hypocrites. Or as one says get people thrown out of the church.

It was this strange anger and revulsion that testified they did not know Jesus. Being lost and trapped in sin is a sad state, bound and babbling, ready to be broken like a shell left as a weeping and gnashing individual. Meekness does show more than many imagine.

 

[PeterJens]

Every translation has its own slant.
Just like we discuss here different ways we understand verses....so too theologians do the same.

For example, the NIV teaches OSAS.
Ditto for commentaries....

Bias is part of life. I have come to learn it is not the bias that is the issue but knowledge of it.

There are always subtle questions of emphasis that leave an individual able to choose. Some blindly take these points as proof of something.

Over time that which is important becomes clear, loving others and serving needs. Jesus is the power and our heart and inspiration.

Waiting for this clarity, refining, patiently walking is light in the darkness, salt that preserves through the storms. Passions of life come and go, affairs, greed, murder, theft, but if we hold the way, beauty in life.
Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

Bias is part of life. I have come to learn it is not the bias that is the issue but knowledge of it.

There are always subtle questions of emphasis that leave an individual able to choose. Some blindly take these points as proof of something.

Over time that which is important becomes clear, loving others and serving needs. Jesus is the power and our heart and inspiration.

Waiting for this clarity, refining, patiently walking is light in the darkness, salt that preserves through the storms. Passions of life come and go, affairs, greed, murder, theft, but if we hold the way, beauty in life.
Amen

Sure PJ,,,the above is all good.
But you know...we all have our pet doctrine that we like to protect.
The above, I think, is referring more to a personal bias, but what about the bias of others?

I can't remember what forum we're in so I don't care to start a conversation on eternal security,,,but this happens to be my pet doctrine....the reason being that I believe it's a doctrine that could cause one to lose their salvation and I was trained, many years ago, to be very aware of lost souls, witnessing, etc.

I still feel today that it's part of our work to try to save a soul for heaven. I don't go around preaching on a soapbox but I'll take the opportunity if I can. A little word here and there - no hard preaching or teaching unless it's asked. That seems to turn people off.

just a thought....

 

[Truthfrees]

That would include your own translating, would it not? For me, I will trust 100's of educated people over my own any day.

i'm using lexicons - as do all translators - if anyone including me disagrees with lexicons (plural- as there are many lexicons) they would be in error

i understand your point - i am not going to fault you over that - God bless you as you trust those you think are worthy of trust - i do the same - i trust only those i feel are worthy of trust

 

[PeterJens]

Sure PJ,,,the above is all good.
But you know...we all have our pet doctrine that we like to protect.
The above, I think, is referring more to a personal bias, but what about the bias of others?

I can't remember what forum we're in so I don't care to start a conversation on eternal security,,,but this happens to be my pet doctrine....the reason being that I believe it's a doctrine that could cause one to lose their salvation and I was trained, many years ago, to be very aware of lost souls, witnessing, etc.

I still feel today that it's part of our work to try to save a soul for heaven. I don't go around preaching on a soapbox but I'll take the opportunity if I can. A little word here and there - no hard preaching or teaching unless it's asked. That seems to turn people off.

just a thought....

I believe in street evangelism, in sharing ones faith in a fixed forum where people can come and go. And yes we should be grieved about the lost, but the door is often not open, but the opportunity can be used when it appears.

Sowing the seed is important. I talk about people in our house group or at church and about what happened to show this is just normal appreciation of this of life and God.

I would say we sow the seed, God saves the soul.
Biases are part of life, we all have them. Each one has its justification, its benefit and its down side. What is often not appreciated is biases are not right or wrong but often linked to our personality. So I will analyse and try to define things while others will desire to express emotionally how the truth makes them feel. Some will be called to service in community action while others in building companies or families or supporting churches etc. We cannot do it all, so our bias often reflects our focus.

And hard preaching against sin, amen. But not like hell fire etc. but you reap what you sow. Sow to fluid relationships and ones relationships disappear.