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Trinitarians Plz Explain This Verse

Solo said:
The Word of God clearly shows Jesus, the Spirit, and Jehovah as being on in the same. Those who disagree are not born of God, and cannot see the truth revealed by the Spirit of God.

I suggest that each of those who know not God, examine themselves recognizing that they were never born of God. Unless there is a time where one can point to this born of God process, they are not born again.

For examination purposes, can you show me in scripture where anyone is not born of God if they believe in God as plainly described in the scriptures?

This means the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob...The same God whom begat Jesus his Son; and whom sent the Comforter after Jesus returned to his side in heaven.

Are they condemned for believing in God and his Son and the Comforter whom Jesus promised, which the scriptures tesitfy of, IF they do not believe they are all the same God? If so, show me where in the bible.
 
Klee shay said:
Solo said:
The Word of God clearly shows Jesus, the Spirit, and Jehovah as being on in the same. Those who disagree are not born of God, and cannot see the truth revealed by the Spirit of God.

I suggest that each of those who know not God, examine themselves recognizing that they were never born of God. Unless there is a time where one can point to this born of God process, they are not born again.

For examination purposes, can you show me in scripture where anyone is not born of God if they believe in God as plainly described in the scriptures?

This means the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob...The same God whom begat Jesus his Son; and whom sent the Comforter after Jesus returned to his side in heaven.

Are they condemned for believing in God and his Son and the Comforter whom Jesus promised, which the scriptures tesitfy of, IF they do not believe they are all the same God? If so, show me where in the bible.

Amen Brother.
 
+JMJ+


What is God's relationship to His Word?
 
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
+JMJ+


What is God's relationship to His Word?

The same as the relationship between a man and his word - the word that expresses his conviction/intention/purpose/etc. Your word is "with" you, your word also "is" you, but not all of you. It is not a distinct person from you, but is the expression of your person. Therefore we can say that God's Word was "divine" in that it comes directly from God, but it was not a person originally.
 
ANd an understanding of the Word 'becoming flesh' is crucial to an understanding of Christ. Jesus PLAINLY states that the 'words' that He gave were NOT His OWN, but GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER. THAT, my friends, is the Word 'becoming' flesh. Christ Jesus having the Word DELIVERED to Him is the Word in the flesh.

Please tell me, 'trins', what does it mean for it to BE STATED that God is the God of Christ ALSO? Could Christ both BE GOD and HAVE A GOD also? For this is purely illogical in every respect. Christ WORSHIPED the Father. Huh? The Lord's Prayer offers this in detail. 'OUR' Father!!!!!! Now what kind of 'trickiness' was this? To BE GOD yet 'hide' this from His followers. My God is NOT a God of deception. He is open and honest and CANNOT LIE. This 'trinitarian' god seems to be one of deception and trickery. Hiding his identity from all but those that have learned of him through 'other men'.

And to witness the anger and hate of those that defend this doctrine is nothing short of utter amusement. It is NOT 'pleasurable' amusement. Just the opposite, for it pains me deeply to see those that have a desire for the 'truth' to have been led in this kind of direction AWAY from a Spirit of LOVE and sinking them into a spirit of anger and hate. Let it go folks. ACCEPT the LOVE that has been offered and do your best to understand it so that YOU TOO can reflect this upon the 'world'.
 
Klee shay said:
Solo said:
The Word of God clearly shows Jesus, the Spirit, and Jehovah as being on in the same. Those who disagree are not born of God, and cannot see the truth revealed by the Spirit of God.

I suggest that each of those who know not God, examine themselves recognizing that they were never born of God. Unless there is a time where one can point to this born of God process, they are not born again.

For examination purposes, can you show me in scripture where anyone is not born of God if they believe in God as plainly described in the scriptures?

This means the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob...The same God whom begat Jesus his Son; and whom sent the Comforter after Jesus returned to his side in heaven.

Are they condemned for believing in God and his Son and the Comforter whom Jesus promised, which the scriptures tesitfy of, IF they do not believe they are all the same God? If so, show me where in the bible.
Who begat Jesus Christ, God the Spirit or God the Father?

Who was Jesus Christ before being born in the flesh?

How was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to his birth in the flesh?

Why is it such a problem for some to understand the one God in three persons?
 
If no one objects, I would like to address the questions posed here.

Who begat Jesus Christ, God the Spirit or God the Father?
God is Spirit and it is His Spirit that is the mechanism by which He accomplishes His will. Jesus Christ was begotten by the Most High El - as it is written.

Who was Jesus Christ before being born in the flesh?
Some of the titles given to him by the Father include: Angel of YHVH, Captain of the Host of Heaven, Angel of the Presence, Angel of Great Council, Face of God, Yahovah, the Word, Yahovah of Israel, Anointed, elohim, Adon Yahovah, Peni’el, Morning Star, and el of the House of El or God of the House of God (El Bethel).

There are no doubt some other titles that I missed, these were just the ones I could recall from memory. Who he was prior to emptying himself from his spirit-life and taking on mortal human-life, was the Angel of God, the beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).

How was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to his birth in the flesh?
He was a son of God as all the rest are sons of God by generation of the Father. He became the onlyborn theos and the firstborn of creation or prototokos (Colossians 1:15), from his resurrection from the dead and given the glory he had while with the Father prior to his human incarnation.

Why is it such a problem for some to understand the one God in three persons?
Because no one can understand it. The Trinitarian camp here has already admitted this fact. It cannot be understood because it is incoherent - a logical absurdity. There is none who understand it and no one ever will.

BTW, the problem rests with those who cling to it – not those who accept what is written.

R7-12
 
R7-12 said:
If no one objects, I would like to address the questions posed here.

Who begat Jesus Christ, God the Spirit or God the Father?
God is Spirit and it is His Spirit that is the mechanism by which He accomplishes His will. Jesus Christ was begotten by the Most High El - as it is written.

[quote:659ea]Who was Jesus Christ before being born in the flesh?
Some of the titles given to him by the Father include: Angel of YHVH, Captain of the Host of Heaven, Angel of the Presence, Angel of Great Council, Face of God, Yahovah, the Word, Yahovah of Israel, Anointed, elohim, Adon Yahovah, Peni’el, Morning Star, and el of the House of El or God of the House of God (El Bethel).

There are no doubt some other titles that I missed, these were just the ones I could recall from memory. Who he was prior to emptying himself from his spirit-life and taking on mortal human-life, was the Angel of God, the beginning of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14).

How was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to his birth in the flesh?
He was a son of God as all the rest are sons of God by generation of the Father. He became the onlyborn theos and the firstborn of creation or prototokos (Colossians 1:15), from his resurrection from the dead and given the glory he had while with the Father prior to his human incarnation.

Why is it such a problem for some to understand the one God in three persons?
Because no one can understand it. The Trinitarian camp here has already admitted this fact. It cannot be understood because it is incoherent - a logical absurdity. There is none who understand it and no one ever will.

BTW, the problem rests with those who cling to it – not those who accept what is written.

R7-12[/quote:659ea]
In your theology is preincarnate Jesus eternal or was he created?
 
Solo said:
Klee shay said:
For examination purposes, can you show me in scripture where anyone is not born of God if they believe in God as plainly described in the scriptures?

This means the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob...The same God whom begat Jesus his Son; and whom sent the Comforter after Jesus returned to his side in heaven.

Are they condemned for believing in God and his Son and the Comforter whom Jesus promised, which the scriptures tesitfy of, IF they do not believe they are all the same God? If so, show me where in the bible.
Who begat Jesus Christ, God the Spirit or God the Father?

Who was Jesus Christ before being born in the flesh?

How was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to his birth in the flesh?

Why is it such a problem for some to understand the one God in three persons?

You answer my question with a series of questions? This can start to get a little confusing if we don't stay on track. Your initial claim was:

Solo said:
The Word of God clearly shows Jesus, the Spirit, and Jehovah as being on in the same. Those who disagree are not born of God, and cannot see the truth revealed by the Spirit of God.

I wish to determine the truth of your claim according to scripture, for a charge of not being born of God is a serious charge indeed.

When you can demonstrate the authority of God is behind your assessment of others, I will move to the next step of answering your questions.
 
Klee shay said:
Solo said:
Who begat Jesus Christ, God the Spirit or God the Father?

Who was Jesus Christ before being born in the flesh?

How was Jesus Christ the Son of God prior to his birth in the flesh?

Why is it such a problem for some to understand the one God in three persons?

You answer my question with a series of questions? This can start to get a little confusing if we don't stay on track. Your initial claim was:

Solo said:
The Word of God clearly shows Jesus, the Spirit, and Jehovah as being on in the same. Those who disagree are not born of God, and cannot see the truth revealed by the Spirit of God.

I wish to determine the truth of your claim according to scripture, for a charge of not being born of God is a serious charge indeed.

When you can demonstrate the authority of God is behind your assessment of others, I will move to the next step of answering your questions.

Those who do not believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh are deceived by the spirit of anti-christ.


1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3



When John the Baptist was declaring to be the voice in the wilderness preparing the way for Jehovah God, Jesus Christ as prophesied in Isaiah 40:3, John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Saduccees who claimed to know God, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:1-12).

The Pharisees came unto Jesus at the Mount of Olives and claimed Abraham as their Father in reference to being God's children. Jesus explained that He was the light of the world, and that those that followed Him would not walk in darkness, but instead would have the light of life. The Pharisees declared Jesus' record as being false and that they were true. Jesus declared to those who claimed to be the children of God through Abraham, "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also".
The Pharisees asked Jesus who his father was, and Jesus replied, "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also". Jesus continued to promote the truth of Him being the redeemer by explaining that He was the one to die for the sins of those who believe. He also explained that those who thought that they were children of God through Abraham were going to die in their sins because they did not believe that Jesus was not of the world, but from above.
Jesus explains that He speaks of the things that he has heard from the Father while those that thought they were children of God because Abraham was their father. Jesus told them that satan was their father, and that Abraham was not. Jesus told them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." After saying this, the Pharisees recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God so they took up stones to stone him.

The Pharisees thought that they knew God but they denied the deity of Jesus. They saw Jesus as a man, not as God. Jesus claimed that they didn't know God because they didn't know Jesus. Those today who don't know Jesus as God, do not know God.



12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. 20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:12-59
 
Solo said:
Those who do not believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh are deceived by the spirit of anti-christ.


1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: Yes, Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh and is of God - no antichrist here. But it didn't say Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh and IS God. It requires some translation to remove "of" from that scripture to get Jesus Christ is come in the flesh and IS God. 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3 Still no anitchrist here because I believe Jesus Christ is come in the flesh and is of God...but the scripture does not say Jesus Christ is God, to which your basing your "antichrist" proclaimation upon.



When John the Baptist was declaring to be the voice in the wilderness preparing the way for Jehovah God, Jesus Christ as prophesied in Isaiah 40:3, John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Saduccees who claimed to know God, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:1-12).

The Pharisees came unto Jesus at the Mount of Olives and claimed Abraham as their Father in reference to being God's children. Jesus explained that He was the light of the world, and that those that followed Him would not walk in darkness, but instead would have the light of life. The Pharisees declared Jesus' record as being false and that they were true. Jesus declared to those who claimed to be the children of God through Abraham, "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also".
The Pharisees asked Jesus who his father was, and Jesus replied, "Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also". Jesus continued to promote the truth of Him being the redeemer by explaining that He was the one to die for the sins of those who believe. He also explained that those who thought that they were children of God through Abraham were going to die in their sins because they did not believe that Jesus was not of the world, but from above.
Jesus explains that He speaks of the things that he has heard from the Father while those that thought they were children of God because Abraham was their father. Jesus told them that satan was their father, and that Abraham was not. Jesus told them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." After saying this, the Pharisees recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God so they took up stones to stone him.

The Pharisees thought that they knew God but they denied the deity of Jesus. They saw Jesus as a man, not as God. Jesus claimed that they didn't know God because they didn't know Jesus. Those today who don't know Jesus as God, do not know God. Yes this is all biblically correct, but you are taking the denial of the Pharisees, and equating that to people who actually believe Jesus came from God - but not that he WAS God.



12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. 20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:12-59


Perhaps you can bold the words in these scriptures which you feel Jesus is tellings us directly that he IS God; and teaching that he is God. I see the Father honouring Jesus and sending Jesus but I see no direct claim from Jesus that he IS God.
 
Solo said:
In your theology is preincarnate Jesus eternal or was he created?
Only one is eternal and thus immortal and that is the Most High God (1Timothy 6:16, John 5:26, 1 John 5:20). If Christ were also eternal, as his Father is, then you have two immortal beings not one. That is Ditheism and it is not Biblical. I know Trinitarians try to confuse the matter by saying they are not two beings but rather two persons in one being but that is both nonsense and unbiblical.

This fact is also evidenced by the question asked. To ask if Jesus Christ is created or eternal shows that he is considered to be a being separate from God. Even to assert that they are one being but two persons and then claim Christ to be co-eternal with God demands two beings. One being cannot consist of two persons who are co-eternal without requiring them to be two separate beings. How can one being be co – anything with itself? It is non-biblical, illogical, beyond reasonableness, and impossible within the structure of language itself. It does not reflect a God of order but rather, one of confusion.

The Bible is explicit concerning Christ as a created being. The problem lies in the unwillingness to accept what the Bible says. It is the same with the law of God. I could quote literally hundreds of Scriptures from the word of God that clearly state we must live by the law of God, but they are all dismissed by those unwilling to accept what is clearly written. Wouldn’t you agree?

So what is the purpose of providing Scriptural evidence when it is not accepted or even considered?

Are you willing to accept that it is Biblically possible that Jesus Christ is a created being and therefore could be the truth?

Perhaps you would be willing to answer this question. What is the primary meaning of SGD # 4160 ? And SGD # 746 ?

Your response will speak volumes of your willingness to consider something that currently doesn’t fit within your current cosmology.

Let us see if we are able to communicate rationally and with respect.

R7-12
 
I'll answer Solo, YES, Jesus Christ was/IS a 'created' entity. The Bible states as much, but as pointed out by R, one must accept the Word ON IT'S OWN without preconcieved notions that would 'cloud' it's meaning.

The ONLY begotten is ONE PRIME EXAMPLE of scripture pointing to Christ's 'creation'. Yet 'trins' insist that 'begotten' doesn't REALLY mean begotten. They MUST create 'their OWN definitions' to words and pharases in order for them to 'fit' their 'theology'.
 
+JMJ+

I'll answer Solo, YES, Jesus Christ was/IS a 'created' entity. The Bible states as much, but as pointed out by R, one must accept the Word ON IT'S OWN without preconcieved notions that would 'cloud' it's meaning.

Would you give me one piece of Scripture that says Jesus was created?

In the Greek the word used was 'monogenes'. It does not mean created.

The ONLY begotten is ONE PRIME EXAMPLE of scripture pointing to Christ's 'creation'. Yet 'trins' insist that 'begotten' doesn't REALLY mean begotten. They MUST create 'their OWN definitions' to words and pharases in order for them to 'fit' their 'theology'.

I don't have to mold anything, Scripture is quite clear in the matter.

What I am still confused about is why would Jesus say he is the First and the Last...When God tells us He is the First and the Last. Why would Jesus give Himself a title only used for God?
 
+JMJ+


God does not have beginning and ending.

I didn't say He did.

Scripture says God is the First and the Last. First does not mean beginning, it means it was before all else was.
 
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
+JMJ+


God does not have beginning and ending.

I didn't say He did.

Scripture says God is the First and the Last. First does not mean beginning, it means it was before all else was.

Where does it say that?
 
+JMJ+

Isaiah 44:6

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of Hosts:
I am the First and the Last..."
 
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-3

Jesus is not a created entity. Jesus created all things and nothing was created apart from him. Those who disagree with this, disagree with the Word of God and are deceived.
 
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