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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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S
Solo
Guest
The same way that you differentiate between God's being and his will.
S
Solo
Guest
You don't. God's will is to love. God is love. God's being is his will. God's Word is God.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
How does God describe Himself to us?
Hi friends,
Whew, there's a lot of threads going in connection with the doctrine of the Trinity, with what has to be a great deal of confusion in how to best delineate the proper way to describe who/what God is. Why don't we let Him tell us from His own Word, the Bible?
First of all, let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the disagreement I have, and seek to correct, are the false teachings that have crept into the Christian Church since the 2nd century A.D.
It is necessary to first properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as the Spirit. Secondly, God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44, and is therefore obviously the HOLY SPIRIT.
In the third place, the fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles I will not further enumerate, as they are all quite well known to you all.
In the fourth place, God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."
In the fifth place, now that it can be clearly seen from the Word of God, that God - is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been stated, what about Jesus. Along with misconceptions of who the Holy Spirit is - the most important of all, is the description of Jesus.
Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].
"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]
when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]. [Which is in complete harmony with both Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Jn.1:1;2].
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-35]
That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.
In the KJV, another example of the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus being created comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESSED in both, means CREATED, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of His works, before the world began.
In the sixth place, when the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, when she conceived what became the incarnated Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7 and repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnated Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said, whoever believes in him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives to those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. See also Jn.20:21-22 and 1 Jn.4:13.
At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., etc., etc., and is now also the Father! We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.
Point number seven brings us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - those remarks were all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with any kind of physical involvement. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him, receiving His baptism instantly, with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], becoming a born again person [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But you must understand that we all retain our own physical individual identities, personage, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Personages!
Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28. An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan enters into Judas, who is then controlled by [the spirit who is] Satan, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both He and Judas retained their own spirits and individuality.
Point eight is the fact that the apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.
The ninth point is the fact that the Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and in other places. Jesus ascended and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12 and in other places. For all those who participate in the first resurrection, they are to be priests of God and of Jesus, Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23.
Point ten pertains to the literal description of God - in that Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would have undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, as was the case in the OT, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7. After that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the living God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, whose pre-incarnated Spirit was created, Heb.10:5. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is:
ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST [GOD THE SON], THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, and with that having been established, the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, according to the written Word. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 is a verse that was tampered with and added onto, and 1 Jn.5:7 which is an out and out fraudulant insert.
Let it be clear to all who read the above, I do not hold any animosity whatsoever against the many of you who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, though it is completely false, as the Scriptures make clear in the above post. In the second place, it has nothing at all to do with our salvation. Therefore, whether we believe in a triune God or not, we can still be brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
In His love,
Quasar
Hi friends,
Whew, there's a lot of threads going in connection with the doctrine of the Trinity, with what has to be a great deal of confusion in how to best delineate the proper way to describe who/what God is. Why don't we let Him tell us from His own Word, the Bible?
First of all, let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the disagreement I have, and seek to correct, are the false teachings that have crept into the Christian Church since the 2nd century A.D.
It is necessary to first properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as the Spirit. Secondly, God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44, and is therefore obviously the HOLY SPIRIT.
In the third place, the fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles I will not further enumerate, as they are all quite well known to you all.
In the fourth place, God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."
In the fifth place, now that it can be clearly seen from the Word of God, that God - is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been stated, what about Jesus. Along with misconceptions of who the Holy Spirit is - the most important of all, is the description of Jesus.
Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].
"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]
when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]. [Which is in complete harmony with both Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Jn.1:1;2].
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-35]
That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.
In the KJV, another example of the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus being created comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESSED in both, means CREATED, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ.
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of His works, before the world began.
In the sixth place, when the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, when she conceived what became the incarnated Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7 and repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnated Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said, whoever believes in him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives to those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. See also Jn.20:21-22 and 1 Jn.4:13.
At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., etc., etc., and is now also the Father! We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.
Point number seven brings us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - those remarks were all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with any kind of physical involvement. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him, receiving His baptism instantly, with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], becoming a born again person [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But you must understand that we all retain our own physical individual identities, personage, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Personages!
Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28. An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan enters into Judas, who is then controlled by [the spirit who is] Satan, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both He and Judas retained their own spirits and individuality.
Point eight is the fact that the apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.
The ninth point is the fact that the Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and in other places. Jesus ascended and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12 and in other places. For all those who participate in the first resurrection, they are to be priests of God and of Jesus, Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23.
Point ten pertains to the literal description of God - in that Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would have undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, as was the case in the OT, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7. After that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the living God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, whose pre-incarnated Spirit was created, Heb.10:5. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is:
ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST [GOD THE SON], THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, and with that having been established, the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, according to the written Word. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 is a verse that was tampered with and added onto, and 1 Jn.5:7 which is an out and out fraudulant insert.
Let it be clear to all who read the above, I do not hold any animosity whatsoever against the many of you who believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, though it is completely false, as the Scriptures make clear in the above post. In the second place, it has nothing at all to do with our salvation. Therefore, whether we believe in a triune God or not, we can still be brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
In His love,
Quasar
Drew
Member
Re: How does God describe Himself to us?
I have not yet begun to critically examine the doctrine of the Trinity and, to this point anyway, would say that I have an admittedly unexamined acceptance of the "traditional" doctrine of the Trinity - although I certainly see there are big challenges in making it work.
In any event, would you consider the fact of there being two genders as somehow representative of the "two person" model you present of God? In other words, if I were to provisionally accept your view, I would be inclined to argue as follows:
The existence of the 2 genders reflects the "two-ness" of our God and the most intimate of all relationships (arguably that between a man and a woman) serves as a pale reflection of the relationship that exists between God and Jesus. In other words, to create man "in our image" (as per Genesis 1) means to create 2 genders in relationship with one another, reflecting the inherent "2-ness" of God and Jesus.
Hello Quasar (and others):Quasar said:
I have not yet begun to critically examine the doctrine of the Trinity and, to this point anyway, would say that I have an admittedly unexamined acceptance of the "traditional" doctrine of the Trinity - although I certainly see there are big challenges in making it work.
In any event, would you consider the fact of there being two genders as somehow representative of the "two person" model you present of God? In other words, if I were to provisionally accept your view, I would be inclined to argue as follows:
The existence of the 2 genders reflects the "two-ness" of our God and the most intimate of all relationships (arguably that between a man and a woman) serves as a pale reflection of the relationship that exists between God and Jesus. In other words, to create man "in our image" (as per Genesis 1) means to create 2 genders in relationship with one another, reflecting the inherent "2-ness" of God and Jesus.
How does God describe Himself ?
Hi Drew,
You wrote:
>>>The existence of the 2 genders reflects the "two-ness" of our God and the most intimate of all relationships (arguably that between a man and a woman) serves as a pale reflection of the relationship that exists between God and Jesus. In other words, to create man "in our image" (as per Genesis 1) means to create 2 genders in relationship with one another, reflecting the inherent "2-ness" of God and Jesus.<<<
The fact is, the Scriptures reveal there are two Gods, beginning in the NT when God the Holy Spirit incarnated the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus into/through the virgin Mary [Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35]. As seen in Heb.10:5, Jesus stated God had provided Him a body, i.e., for His pre-incarnated spirit, created per Pr.8:22-36. As seen in Col.1:15, the FIRSTBORN over all creation. Therefore, as it is written in the Scriptures, Jesus is not co-eternal with God the Holy Spirit, as trinitarians insist upon.
Trinitarians try to make Jesus, God [the Holy Spirit], and the Holy Spirit, one God, out of three persons, so they are in line with the OT, when there was, without a doubt, but one God, as in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. But, when the Holy Spirit incarnated the spirit who became Jesus, like every other father and son who has ever existed, there was then two persons.
But God, the Holy Spirit, prophecied in Ps.45:6-7 that His Son was also God, as He did through the prophet Isaiah in 7:14. When they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:8-9 as was the prophecy in Ps.2:7 that was repeated in Heb.1:5 when it was fulfilled.
Therefore, as is written in the Scriptures, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus existed as the very first of God, the Holy Spirit's works of old, before the world began [Pr.8:22-36], the firstborn over all creation [Col.1:15].
So if we stop trying to lean on our own understanding, and trust God to teach us through His Word, it is clear to see how out of whack the trinitarian view is. Not that it is all their fault at all, because that is what they believe from the fraud committed by copiests who altered the original passage in Mt.28:19 and flat out inserted 1 Jn.5:7. Which all began from the very best the minds of men could figure out how to describe God, beginning in the 2nd century, until ratified into the [RCC] church as doctrine in the 5th century. The Creeds are all man made.
Taking Mt.28:19 for example: Jesus would never have made any such remark, because He knew God IS THE HOLY SPIRIT. He certified to it in Jn.4:24 as did Paul in 2 Cor.3:17-18 and in Col.1:15 as well as did John in 1 Jn.4:12. Therefore, God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father of Jesus Christ, as seen in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. So there is no such thing as nations being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit is the Father. Jesus, on the other hand, is the second, and only other person beside God, the Holy Spirit, who are divine. The same thing is true in the case of 1 Jn.5:7 which simply does not appear in any of the more reliable early mss.
As for the allegations about being baptized in the names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [As presently appears in Mt.28:19], the apostles only baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as seen in Acts 2:38. As Jesus taught Nicodemus how to be born again, in Jn.3:16, Jesus gives/baptizes with the Holy Spirit the instant people believe/receive Him as Lord {Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 20:21-22, and 1 Jn.4:13].
Trinitarians rightfully state that the Father and the Son are one, but that is true only when it is understood as meaning SPIRITUALLY. As Jesus prayed to the Father that we would be one in them, as they are with one another. It DOES NOT MEAN THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE GOD, any more than it means all we believers are one person either! We are all baptized by one Spirit into one body [Of Christ] [Rom.12:13].
Jesus said, His Father is the only true God [But the Father called Him God and there is no human being who ever lived who had the powers that Jesus had. The ability to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, to raise people from the dead, heal the blind, the deaf, and the terminally ill!]. He also said His Father is greater than He, in Jn.14:28.
Meaning no disrespect to anyone who believes it, but there is no such thing as a triune Godhead.
Sorry this is lengthy, but if it was a matter of giving you the full treatment, it would be much longer than this.
Blessings,
Quasar
Hi Drew,
You wrote:
>>>The existence of the 2 genders reflects the "two-ness" of our God and the most intimate of all relationships (arguably that between a man and a woman) serves as a pale reflection of the relationship that exists between God and Jesus. In other words, to create man "in our image" (as per Genesis 1) means to create 2 genders in relationship with one another, reflecting the inherent "2-ness" of God and Jesus.<<<
The fact is, the Scriptures reveal there are two Gods, beginning in the NT when God the Holy Spirit incarnated the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus into/through the virgin Mary [Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35]. As seen in Heb.10:5, Jesus stated God had provided Him a body, i.e., for His pre-incarnated spirit, created per Pr.8:22-36. As seen in Col.1:15, the FIRSTBORN over all creation. Therefore, as it is written in the Scriptures, Jesus is not co-eternal with God the Holy Spirit, as trinitarians insist upon.
Trinitarians try to make Jesus, God [the Holy Spirit], and the Holy Spirit, one God, out of three persons, so they are in line with the OT, when there was, without a doubt, but one God, as in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. But, when the Holy Spirit incarnated the spirit who became Jesus, like every other father and son who has ever existed, there was then two persons.
But God, the Holy Spirit, prophecied in Ps.45:6-7 that His Son was also God, as He did through the prophet Isaiah in 7:14. When they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:8-9 as was the prophecy in Ps.2:7 that was repeated in Heb.1:5 when it was fulfilled.
Therefore, as is written in the Scriptures, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus existed as the very first of God, the Holy Spirit's works of old, before the world began [Pr.8:22-36], the firstborn over all creation [Col.1:15].
So if we stop trying to lean on our own understanding, and trust God to teach us through His Word, it is clear to see how out of whack the trinitarian view is. Not that it is all their fault at all, because that is what they believe from the fraud committed by copiests who altered the original passage in Mt.28:19 and flat out inserted 1 Jn.5:7. Which all began from the very best the minds of men could figure out how to describe God, beginning in the 2nd century, until ratified into the [RCC] church as doctrine in the 5th century. The Creeds are all man made.
Taking Mt.28:19 for example: Jesus would never have made any such remark, because He knew God IS THE HOLY SPIRIT. He certified to it in Jn.4:24 as did Paul in 2 Cor.3:17-18 and in Col.1:15 as well as did John in 1 Jn.4:12. Therefore, God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father of Jesus Christ, as seen in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35. So there is no such thing as nations being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit is the Father. Jesus, on the other hand, is the second, and only other person beside God, the Holy Spirit, who are divine. The same thing is true in the case of 1 Jn.5:7 which simply does not appear in any of the more reliable early mss.
As for the allegations about being baptized in the names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [As presently appears in Mt.28:19], the apostles only baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, as seen in Acts 2:38. As Jesus taught Nicodemus how to be born again, in Jn.3:16, Jesus gives/baptizes with the Holy Spirit the instant people believe/receive Him as Lord {Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 20:21-22, and 1 Jn.4:13].
Trinitarians rightfully state that the Father and the Son are one, but that is true only when it is understood as meaning SPIRITUALLY. As Jesus prayed to the Father that we would be one in them, as they are with one another. It DOES NOT MEAN THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE GOD, any more than it means all we believers are one person either! We are all baptized by one Spirit into one body [Of Christ] [Rom.12:13].
Jesus said, His Father is the only true God [But the Father called Him God and there is no human being who ever lived who had the powers that Jesus had. The ability to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, to raise people from the dead, heal the blind, the deaf, and the terminally ill!]. He also said His Father is greater than He, in Jn.14:28.
Meaning no disrespect to anyone who believes it, but there is no such thing as a triune Godhead.
Sorry this is lengthy, but if it was a matter of giving you the full treatment, it would be much longer than this.
Blessings,
Quasar
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Re: How does God describe Himself ?
I think there's a chink in your supposition? Acts.10:38 says that Jesus went about healing because God was WITH Him, not because He WAS God. And in Jn.14:12 Jesus says of those who believe on Him - "the works that I do, SHALL HE DO ALSO.
I think there's a chink in your supposition? Acts.10:38 says that Jesus went about healing because God was WITH Him, not because He WAS God. And in Jn.14:12 Jesus says of those who believe on Him - "the works that I do, SHALL HE DO ALSO.
Scriptural description of God
Quote by Brad:
>>>I think there's a chink in your supposition? Acts.10:38 says that Jesus went about healing because God was WITH Him, not because He WAS God. And in Jn.14:12 Jesus says of those who believe on Him - "the works that I do, SHALL HE DO ALSO.<<<
You bet God, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus, so much so that Jesus stated He neither said nor did anything His Father had not taught Him, Jn.8:28. If you are suggesting Jesus is not God, then you are saying God the Holy Spirit has lied, in that the Scriptures document His calling Jesus God in several places, as in Ps.45:6-7, Isa.7:14, and when it was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:8-9.
If you are suggesting Jesus and the Father are one personage, the NT is loaded with passages to deny any such thoughts. Why do the apostles all greet both the Father and Jesus in every epistle in the Bible? Two personages, not one.
Blessings,
Quasar
Quote by Brad:
>>>I think there's a chink in your supposition? Acts.10:38 says that Jesus went about healing because God was WITH Him, not because He WAS God. And in Jn.14:12 Jesus says of those who believe on Him - "the works that I do, SHALL HE DO ALSO.<<<
You bet God, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus, so much so that Jesus stated He neither said nor did anything His Father had not taught Him, Jn.8:28. If you are suggesting Jesus is not God, then you are saying God the Holy Spirit has lied, in that the Scriptures document His calling Jesus God in several places, as in Ps.45:6-7, Isa.7:14, and when it was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:8-9.
If you are suggesting Jesus and the Father are one personage, the NT is loaded with passages to deny any such thoughts. Why do the apostles all greet both the Father and Jesus in every epistle in the Bible? Two personages, not one.
Blessings,
Quasar
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Re: Scriptural description of God
So that would translate...
"You bet God was with God, so much that God stated he neither said nor did anything his God had not taught him"?
My specific point addressed the fact that Jesus did not have to be God to do the miracles, which you seemed to cite as one reason he was God? Since you have jumped to unrelated proof-texts in reply, do you concede the specific point?
Of course they are two personages - and equally obvious is the fact that those salutations identify the Father as God, not Jesus. Why is that?
So that would translate...
"You bet God was with God, so much that God stated he neither said nor did anything his God had not taught him"?
My specific point addressed the fact that Jesus did not have to be God to do the miracles, which you seemed to cite as one reason he was God? Since you have jumped to unrelated proof-texts in reply, do you concede the specific point?
Of course they are two personages - and equally obvious is the fact that those salutations identify the Father as God, not Jesus. Why is that?
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
jgredline said:
Yes, you're a little late on that correction :roll:
BUT you have an answer OTHER than that?
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
jgredline said:
:-?
R
R7-12
Guest
It appears he meant to refer to,
John 6:38
John 6:38
jgredline
Member
Here is what J Vernon McGEE had to say in contex.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst [John 6:35].
He joins the two together. Christ is the manna. He is the One who came down from heaven and gave His life for the world that we might have life. That is salvation. We will also see that He is the Bread that we are to feed upon constantly so that we might grow spiritually. After all, manna was miracle food, and it was thrilling. When the children of Israel got into the Promised Land, they were given the “old corn of the land†which symbolizes the Word of God. Believe me, lots of people don’t like the “old corn.â€Â
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out [John 6:36–37].
“You want bread? Well, I am the Bread of Life. But you have seen Me, and you do not believe. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me; and him that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.â€Â
This thirty-seventh verse is a very important verse. There is a theological argument that rages today on election or free will. There are some people who put all their eggs in the basket of election. There are others who put all their eggs in the basket of free will. I’m not proposing to reconcile the two because I have discovered that I cannot. If you had met me the year that I entered seminary, or the year I graduated, I could have reconciled them for you. I never have been as smart as I was my first year and my last year in seminary. I knew it all then. I could reconcile election and free will, and it was a marvelous explanation. Now I’ve even forgotten what it was. It was pretty silly, if you want to know the truth.
Election and free will are both in this verse. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me†states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! “And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out†is also true, and “him that cometh to me†is free will. I don’t know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don’t see into the machinery of heaven. I don’t know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
Because Spurgeon preached a “whosoever will†gospel, someone said to him, “If I believed like you do about election, I wouldn’t preach like you do.†Spurgeon’s answer was something like this, “If the Lord had put a yellow stripe down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the street lifting up shirttails, finding out who had the yellow stripe, and then I’d give them the gospel. But God didn’t do it that way. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature that ‘whosoever will may come.’†Jesus says, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.†So, my friend, you can argue about election all you want to, but you can come. And if you come, He’ll not cast you out.
Someone may ask, “You mean that if I’m not the elect I can still come?†My friend, if you come, you will be the elect. How tremendous this is!
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me [John 6:38].
How wonderful it is that the will of God is for you to come to Him. Jesus came down from heaven because “the Son of man must be lifted up.†He came to do the Father’s will in that, and it is the Father’s will that you be born again. But you will have to come to Him, friend; that is the only way. You must come to the Lord Jesus by faith.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day [John 6:39].
The term predestination applies only to the saved. It means just exactly what He is saying here. When a person accepts Christ, he is justified; and just as surely as he is justified, he is going to be glorified. When Jesus starts out with one hundred sheep, He’s going to come through with one hundred sheep. He will not lose one. That is what this means. Everyone who believes and receives Christ has everlasting life and will be raised up again at the last day.
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:405). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst [John 6:35].
He joins the two together. Christ is the manna. He is the One who came down from heaven and gave His life for the world that we might have life. That is salvation. We will also see that He is the Bread that we are to feed upon constantly so that we might grow spiritually. After all, manna was miracle food, and it was thrilling. When the children of Israel got into the Promised Land, they were given the “old corn of the land†which symbolizes the Word of God. Believe me, lots of people don’t like the “old corn.â€Â
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out [John 6:36–37].
“You want bread? Well, I am the Bread of Life. But you have seen Me, and you do not believe. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me; and him that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.â€Â
This thirty-seventh verse is a very important verse. There is a theological argument that rages today on election or free will. There are some people who put all their eggs in the basket of election. There are others who put all their eggs in the basket of free will. I’m not proposing to reconcile the two because I have discovered that I cannot. If you had met me the year that I entered seminary, or the year I graduated, I could have reconciled them for you. I never have been as smart as I was my first year and my last year in seminary. I knew it all then. I could reconcile election and free will, and it was a marvelous explanation. Now I’ve even forgotten what it was. It was pretty silly, if you want to know the truth.
Election and free will are both in this verse. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me†states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! “And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out†is also true, and “him that cometh to me†is free will. I don’t know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don’t see into the machinery of heaven. I don’t know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
Because Spurgeon preached a “whosoever will†gospel, someone said to him, “If I believed like you do about election, I wouldn’t preach like you do.†Spurgeon’s answer was something like this, “If the Lord had put a yellow stripe down the backs of the elect, I’d go up and down the street lifting up shirttails, finding out who had the yellow stripe, and then I’d give them the gospel. But God didn’t do it that way. He told me to preach the gospel to every creature that ‘whosoever will may come.’†Jesus says, “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.†So, my friend, you can argue about election all you want to, but you can come. And if you come, He’ll not cast you out.
Someone may ask, “You mean that if I’m not the elect I can still come?†My friend, if you come, you will be the elect. How tremendous this is!
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me [John 6:38].
How wonderful it is that the will of God is for you to come to Him. Jesus came down from heaven because “the Son of man must be lifted up.†He came to do the Father’s will in that, and it is the Father’s will that you be born again. But you will have to come to Him, friend; that is the only way. You must come to the Lord Jesus by faith.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day [John 6:39].
The term predestination applies only to the saved. It means just exactly what He is saying here. When a person accepts Christ, he is justified; and just as surely as he is justified, he is going to be glorified. When Jesus starts out with one hundred sheep, He’s going to come through with one hundred sheep. He will not lose one. That is what this means. Everyone who believes and receives Christ has everlasting life and will be raised up again at the last day.
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:405). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.