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Solo
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From my being.mutzrein said:
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Solo
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My will.mutzrein said:
I
Imagican
Guest
Unlike you, Christ was obedient to a will that was from 'outside' Himself. He plainly states that He followed the will of the Father.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
Jesus is God become man. Since Jesus is God made man, He would still have to submit to His Father's will.
Jesus is God become man. Since Jesus is God made man, He would still have to submit to His Father's will.
I
Imagican
Guest
Only in your limited understanding.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
Your charity makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Your charity makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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BradtheImpaler
Guest
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
If something "becomes" something else, it doesn't remain that which it was before, or, it didn't really become something else at all. What was it about Jesus (God) that became man?
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R7-12
Guest
Fukton Sheen's Warrior said,
Regardless of that, you assert that Christ was in submission to his Father's will, therefore the obvious conclusion can only be that he cannot be co-equal with Him anyway.
In addition, if Christ were able to deny his own will and choose to be submissive to his Father's will as you claim, then logically he is by necessity a separate and distinct being from his Father.
A separate will denotes the ability to make alternative choices, therefore, hypothethetcially, if Christ chose to do his own will which was different than his Father's will, Christ's actions would be separate and distinct from his Father which logically demands the conclusion that they are separate beings.
A single being cannot have separate wills within itself where each will can make separate and distinct choices and undertake dissimilar actions simultaneously. What that describes is schizophrenic thinking.
If the two wills are always perfectly in agreement with each other (again denoting two beings) there is no purpose for two wills, or any need for a second will even to exist or be mentioned for that matter.
What purpose does a single being serve by having two wills if they are forever in perfect agreement? That scenario precludes free will and thus negates any reason to have two separate wills in the first place. What is the purpose of having two wills if they always function as one? Does God possess or demonstrate aspects of Himself which are pointless?
Could someone please provide rational answers these questions?
R7-12
From your statement above you appear to believe Jesus Christ was a man made by God. from that position you would have to concede that Christ could not be co-eternal or co-equal.
Regardless of that, you assert that Christ was in submission to his Father's will, therefore the obvious conclusion can only be that he cannot be co-equal with Him anyway.
In addition, if Christ were able to deny his own will and choose to be submissive to his Father's will as you claim, then logically he is by necessity a separate and distinct being from his Father.
A separate will denotes the ability to make alternative choices, therefore, hypothethetcially, if Christ chose to do his own will which was different than his Father's will, Christ's actions would be separate and distinct from his Father which logically demands the conclusion that they are separate beings.
A single being cannot have separate wills within itself where each will can make separate and distinct choices and undertake dissimilar actions simultaneously. What that describes is schizophrenic thinking.
If the two wills are always perfectly in agreement with each other (again denoting two beings) there is no purpose for two wills, or any need for a second will even to exist or be mentioned for that matter.
What purpose does a single being serve by having two wills if they are forever in perfect agreement? That scenario precludes free will and thus negates any reason to have two separate wills in the first place. What is the purpose of having two wills if they always function as one? Does God possess or demonstrate aspects of Himself which are pointless?
Could someone please provide rational answers these questions?
R7-12
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
I'm not saying that Jesus "transformed" into man, but that He became incarnate.
Jesus is the Eternal Word of God. The eternal Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word.
I'm saying that the Word (Who is God) existed from all eternity, and then the Word (Who is God) took on a human nature complete with a soul, body, and will, thereby being 100% human.
However, being God, He could not become a "lesser" god or a "super" man. He had to hold on to His Divine nature in it's totality.
However, He still could not forget about His humanity. As a human being He could not dissobey His Father's will (as opposed to obeying instead His human will John 5:19 ), for His Father's will and the Divine Son's will cannot be separated ( John 10:30 ).
Hence two natures joined together by a hypostatic union.
I'm not saying that Jesus "transformed" into man, but that He became incarnate.
Jesus is the Eternal Word of God. The eternal Word became flesh. Jesus is the Word.
I'm saying that the Word (Who is God) existed from all eternity, and then the Word (Who is God) took on a human nature complete with a soul, body, and will, thereby being 100% human.
However, being God, He could not become a "lesser" god or a "super" man. He had to hold on to His Divine nature in it's totality.
However, He still could not forget about His humanity. As a human being He could not dissobey His Father's will (as opposed to obeying instead His human will John 5:19 ), for His Father's will and the Divine Son's will cannot be separated ( John 10:30 ).
Hence two natures joined together by a hypostatic union.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
No. I am saying that Jesus had a human nature that must submit to the will of the Father, otherwise He would be imperfect.
He is in submission to His Father's will because it is the divine will. His human will must be in submission to the Divine Will, which He also enjoys.
John 10:30
He must deny His human will and obey His Father's will because it is the Divine will...which He also has.
Christ has two wills.
Is it impossible for God to take on a human nature? If He does, then does He lose His Divinity?
The Divine Will and the Human will are not always in sync. Look at the agony in the garden, Jesus says not my will by thine be done. Pointing out that Jesus' humanity can desire things outside the Divine Nature. Scripture tells us that Jesus was tempted but remained without sin.
Good points. But as I stated above the two wills are not always in perfect unison.
No. I am saying that Jesus had a human nature that must submit to the will of the Father, otherwise He would be imperfect.
He is in submission to His Father's will because it is the divine will. His human will must be in submission to the Divine Will, which He also enjoys.
John 10:30
He must deny His human will and obey His Father's will because it is the Divine will...which He also has.
Christ has two wills.
Is it impossible for God to take on a human nature? If He does, then does He lose His Divinity?
The Divine Will and the Human will are not always in sync. Look at the agony in the garden, Jesus says not my will by thine be done. Pointing out that Jesus' humanity can desire things outside the Divine Nature. Scripture tells us that Jesus was tempted but remained without sin.
Good points. But as I stated above the two wills are not always in perfect unison.
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BradtheImpaler
Guest
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
How much of a person is left over after you describe what they totally are?
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
I am afraid I don't understand you mean.
I am afraid I don't understand you mean.
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Imagican
Guest
Fulton,
Do you not realize how rediculous such statements are?
However, He still could not forget about His humanity. As a human being He could not dissobey His Father's will (as opposed to obeying instead His human will John 5:19 ), for His Father's will and the Divine Son's will cannot be separated ( John 10:30 ).
Christ OVERCAME temptation. Christ could have CERTAINLY disobeyed His Father's will. Otherwise He accomplished NOTHING. He DID obey, but that was through His Choice. Your statement would have Christ some 'mindless' robot that was incapable of doing ANYTHING other than that which He was 'programed' to do. Do you 'truly' think that God would have refused to offer the 'same' freedom to HIS SON that He offered to ALL His 'other' children?
Oh, sorry, I forgot, Christ IS God from your perspective. Nothing but an 'extention' of the Father. But, if that IS the case, then Christ did NOT follow the will of God but HIS OWN WILL. No, I guess that's not right either. For there would have to be, ah, ohh, well, you know,,,, it's like, ah, I mean, well, like, oh yeah, it's like an ice cube or something, you know? Or an egg, yeah that's it, an egg, just a little 'yoke', get it?
And Fulton, I do not offer 'what' I offer as 'my own'. My statement concerning 'understanding' was made in referrence to 'trinity'. It demands that ones understanding be limited to that which one who accepts it is able to understand it in context to the 'rest' of scripture that denounces this doctrine. Not out of meanness or sarcasm, but a simple statement concerning the limited understanding one must accept in order to 'follow' a 'trinity'.
Do you not realize how rediculous such statements are?
However, He still could not forget about His humanity. As a human being He could not dissobey His Father's will (as opposed to obeying instead His human will John 5:19 ), for His Father's will and the Divine Son's will cannot be separated ( John 10:30 ).
Christ OVERCAME temptation. Christ could have CERTAINLY disobeyed His Father's will. Otherwise He accomplished NOTHING. He DID obey, but that was through His Choice. Your statement would have Christ some 'mindless' robot that was incapable of doing ANYTHING other than that which He was 'programed' to do. Do you 'truly' think that God would have refused to offer the 'same' freedom to HIS SON that He offered to ALL His 'other' children?
Oh, sorry, I forgot, Christ IS God from your perspective. Nothing but an 'extention' of the Father. But, if that IS the case, then Christ did NOT follow the will of God but HIS OWN WILL. No, I guess that's not right either. For there would have to be, ah, ohh, well, you know,,,, it's like, ah, I mean, well, like, oh yeah, it's like an ice cube or something, you know? Or an egg, yeah that's it, an egg, just a little 'yoke', get it?
And Fulton, I do not offer 'what' I offer as 'my own'. My statement concerning 'understanding' was made in referrence to 'trinity'. It demands that ones understanding be limited to that which one who accepts it is able to understand it in context to the 'rest' of scripture that denounces this doctrine. Not out of meanness or sarcasm, but a simple statement concerning the limited understanding one must accept in order to 'follow' a 'trinity'.
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
BTI said:
If a person is totally/fully/100% human, how much of that person is left to be anything other than human?
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
With God? Infinity. God can assume a human nature and still be fully Divine.
Nothing is impossible with God.
With God? Infinity. God can assume a human nature and still be fully Divine.
Nothing is impossible with God.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
You don't? Tell me where does your insperation come from?
You don't? Tell me where does your insperation come from?
R
R7-12
Guest
Fulton Sheen's Warrior,
You said,
Second. You assert Christ’s alleged human nature must submit to the will of the Father otherwise he would be imperfect, however, if he must submit to the Father in all cases and thus cannot choose not to, but rather, must always think and speak and do precisely the same as God’s will, what is the purpose for Messiah to have a human will?
Third. If Christ and God are the same being as per the Trinity, and the Trinity asserts that Christ’s divine will is God’s divine will, but that Christ also has a human will, then God has a human will also. Please explain that in light of Scripture. How many wills can God have?
Your refutations do not hold one point.
R7-12
You said,
Three things. First, you say Christ HAD a human nature. When did he receive it and how long did he possess it?
Second. You assert Christ’s alleged human nature must submit to the will of the Father otherwise he would be imperfect, however, if he must submit to the Father in all cases and thus cannot choose not to, but rather, must always think and speak and do precisely the same as God’s will, what is the purpose for Messiah to have a human will?
Third. If Christ and God are the same being as per the Trinity, and the Trinity asserts that Christ’s divine will is God’s divine will, but that Christ also has a human will, then God has a human will also. Please explain that in light of Scripture. How many wills can God have?
If Christ and God are one being then the divine will of the Father is the same divine will of Christ and thus Christ’s will does not require to be in submission to the Father’s will because it is the same will.
But you say that Christ had no choice but to obey his Father’s will, otherwise he would be imperfect. Thus, he cannot deny that which he cannot logically do in the first place. Your assertion is therefore incorrect because it is a pointless exercise for Christ to deny something that has no effect on him anyway. If he did deny it anyway, and he is God, then this god is imperfect.
Please provide the Scriptures that say he has two wills.
Then it is impossible for Christ and God to be the same being as the doctrine of the Trinity demands because it also demands that God has at least two wills – one being human. Your statement thus proves the Trinity is false because it’s premise is impossible.
If the Divine will of God and the human will of Christ are not always in sync - yet they are one being, please explain how this is possible. How can one being have two wills that sometimes are opposed to each other?
But Jesus didn’t say, “not my human will but my divine will be done†did he? No, it doesn’t point out that Jesus' humanity can desire things outside the Divine Nature, it clearly shows that Christ was a man with a human will but also was given the Spirit of his Father.
If Christ could not choose to think, do, or say anything contrary to his Father’s will, then he also could not be tempted. To be tempted means: To be put to trial; to be proven; to be tested. If it were impossible for Christ to sin then it is impossible for him to be put under trial, to be tested, or to be proven.
Your refutations do not hold one point.
You missed answering the questions in the quote above.R7-12 said:
Then John 10:30 is not true.
R7-12
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
You take the verse out of context. There are plenty of things that are impossible for the God of the bible. To lie, to die, to be more than one God, etc.
But back to the immediate point...
Was the human nature that God "assumed" - God? Don't you hold that the human nature of Jesus came from Mary, who was not God? So then, when we take the whole person of Jesus, there was at least some of him that was not God, right? Then he is NOT "fully/completely/100%" God.
(P.S. - Could God, theoretically, "assume the nature" of a chimpanzee and still be "fully divine"?
S
Solo
Guest
Your inabilty to understand plain English plays a paramount role in your false belief system. I was asked the question where MY WORD comes from, and I replied, "My Will". If I would have been asked where the word that I spoke that aligns with the Word of God comes from, I would have said, "God's Will".Imagican said:
Take a break, breathe deeply, pray a prayer to God for wisdom and understanding, and then come back and post with God's guidence instead of your own mishandled grandiloquence.
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